VP debate

[JohnStOnge]

I won't watch it. As I've said before I swore off watching these spectacles that have nothing to do with real debate long ago. But I've been thinking this would be a good time for the Democrats to introduce their "class envy" politics if the opportunity presents itself. That and other issues.

The unfortunate truth is, I think, that if you get into the discussion of issues the Democrats have the advantage right now in terms of public opinion. Want to talk about Supreme Court Justices? The Democrats have the advantage. Want to talk about taxes? The Democrats have the "tax the rich" advantage. Want to talk about environmentalism? The Democrats have the advantage.

This "second card" debate is a good time for the Democrats to do things like pin Pence to his "overturn Roe v. Wade" position. To pin him to his "climate change is a myth" position. To get him to defend Trump's plan to reduce the top marginal rate on the top 1% from 39.6% to 33%. So on and so forth.

[JohnStOnge]

Oh good! Donald Trump is going to Tweet during the debate!

There is no up side to that and a tremendous potential downside. Chances are good the "genius" is going to screw up again!

[CAA Flagship]

I won't watch it. As I've said before I swore off watching these spectacles that have nothing to do with real debate long ago. But I've been thinking this would be a good time for the Democrats to introduce their "class envy" politics if the opportunity presents itself. That and other issues.

The unfortunate truth is, I think, that if you get into the discussion of issues the Democrats have the advantage right now in terms of public opinion. Want to talk about Supreme Court Justices? The Democrats have the advantage. Want to talk about taxes? The Democrats have the "tax the rich" advantage. Want to talk about environmentalism? The Democrats have the advantage.

This "second card" debate is a good time for the Democrats to do things like pin Pence to his "overturn Roe v. Wade" position. To pin him to his "climate change is a myth" position. To get him to defend Trump's plan to reduce the top marginal rate on the top 1% from 39.6% to 33%. So on and so forth.

Boy, I sure hope they don't talk about foreign policy, the ACA, jobs, immigration reform, national security, transparency........

[JohnStOnge]

Boy, I sure hope they don't talk about foreign policy, the ACA, jobs, immigration reform, national security, transparency........

I'm fine if they talk about that stuff as long as Kaine is sufficiently prepared. Would present the opportunity to talk about how Trump is on video saying we should take Quadaffi out directly using our own military then later saying he never said anything like that (i.e., lying). Also could talk about how Trump said the Obama Administration screwed up by MOSTLY withdrawing from Iraq when he's on video saying we should have just declared victory and left entirely.

Transparency? Are you KIDDING me? Trump's guy is going to criticize somebody for lack of transparency when Trump is at the top of the ticket?

Jobs? Kaine can talk about how things were at the end of the Bush Administration vs. how they are now. May not be fair. But that's a slam dunk win.

Immigration reform? The majority of Americans believe there should be a path to citizenship for those in the country illegally. I don't agree with that. But that's public opinion.

If you get into substance you're talking about a buffoon a the top of one ticket vs. someone who at least has some clue at the top of the other. And it's not the buffoon at the top of the Democrat ticket. He's at the top of the Republican ticket.

[Ibanez]

Oh boy....

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[93henfan]

Pence coming off far better than Kaine in the first 15 minutes. Pence seems calm, measured, and likeable. Kaine looks emotional and is just reciting soundbites. He keeps getting defensive and interrupting. Looking really douchey.

Pence just crushing him right now.

[Ibanez]

Kaine looks like the kid in school that tattles on other people.


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[ASUG8]

Wow John. You've been drinking oceans full of Dem Kool-aid. Obama promised the most transparent administration ever and he's put up the most roadblocks. And that adminstration just happened to intervene on behalf of the most corrupt SoS in recent memory, influencing the FBI and the Justice department. How you can sit there and cast stones at Trump when the Clintons have demonstrated she abides only by whatever laws she can't influence is laughable. Class envy? The Clintons have a net worth around $110M, she takes millions from Wall Street to finance her campaign, but she's one of the "middle class" and gets their struggles? Give me a break......
There are ZERO good choices in this election, but somehow you think that Obama 3.0 is the right answer. God help us all.

[93henfan]

Kaine looks like the kid in school that tattles on other people.


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Yeah, I didn't realize he was this unlikeable. First time I've ever looked at him longer than 30 seconds at a time. He is a little bitch. Perfect running mate for Hillary.

[93henfan]

Pence just bitchslapped Kaine again on the police issue. This is a rout so far.

[Ibanez]

Kaine looks like the kid in school that tattles on other people.


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Yeah, I didn't realize he was this unlikeable. First time I've ever looked at him longer than 30 seconds at a time. He is a little bitch. Perfect running mate for Hillary.

Pence, IMO, is doing well.


As is the moderator.


Kaine just comes off Like a whiner.


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[HI54UNI]

I just flipped on the debate. Kaine is like that annoying guy at a meeting that always keeps asking questions/talking when everybody wants to leave.

[Skjellyfetti]

Yeah, Pence is winning this one.

So sad Republicans didn't nominate someone half as competent.

[93henfan]

Time to get to bed. No need to watch poor Kaine get detroyed by Pence any longer. This has been a complete woodshedding by Pence.

[Pwns]

Kaine: Blah blah blah racism blah blah blah sexism blah blah blah bigotry blah blah blah muslinism blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaaaaaaah.

[Skjellyfetti]

Time to get to bed. No need to watch poor Kaine get detroyed by Pence any longer. This has been a complete woodshedding by Pence.

It's a rout because he is running as far away from Trump as he can and taking positions that are the polar opposite of what Trump has been babbling about for the past 12 months. It's not going to get anyone to vote for Trump.


This is "prevent defense"

[Skjellyfetti]

Pence would be cleaning up with Clinton if he were the nominee. Wouldn't be close, imo.

[kalm]

I know I was waiting with great anticipation for which one of these two change agents were gonna knock me off me feet the most!

Sounds like it was the dashing silver haired fox from the Hoosier state!

[BDKJMU]

Time to get to bed. No need to watch poor Kaine get detroyed by Pence any longer. This has been a complete woodshedding by Pence.

It's a rout because he is running as far away from Trump as he can and taking positions that are the polar opposite of what Trump has been babbling about for the past 12 months. It's not going to get anyone to vote for Trump.


This is "prevent defense"

No its a route because the weasel Kaine has been going half the debate "Well Trump said this and Trump said that" and Pence outside of a few brief refutations has mostly ignored that and calmly explained how Obama & Hildacunt as SOS has been a disaster and how it needs to be done differently..

[BDKJMU]

Now for JSO to try to spin somehow that Kaine won in 3, 2, 1....

[JohnStOnge]

Wow John. You've been drinking oceans full of Dem Kool-aid. Obama promised the most transparent administration ever and he's put up the most roadblocks. And that adminstration just happened to intervene on behalf of the most corrupt SoS in recent memory, influencing the FBI and the Justice department. How you can sit there and cast stones at Trump when the Clintons have demonstrated she abides only by whatever laws she can't influence is laughable. Class envy? The Clintons have a net worth around $110M, she takes millions from Wall Street to finance her campaign, but she's one of the "middle class" and gets their struggles? Give me a break......
There are ZERO good choices in this election, but somehow you think that Obama 3.0 is the right answer. God help us all.

I didn't say Clinton is a paragon of transparency. The problem for someone like Pence in attacking her lack of transparency is that his running mate is about the least transparent candidate of our lifetimes. And when he does say something about himself it is usually a lie.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Administration intervened to influence the FBI and the Justice Department. You guys need to drop the conspiracy theory crap and just accept that the FBI determined that there was not sufficient basis for charges.

The class envy exploitation I'm suggesting doesn't have to do with comparing Clinton and Trump with respect to how rich they are. It has to do with the long standing public support for soaking the rich tax wise. Trump's tax plan lowers the top marginal rate from 39.6% to 33%. There will be changes in loopholes, but a variety of analysts have consistently said that Trump's plan will result in a big windfall for the wealthiest. Google "Who will Trump's tax plan benefit most" and you'll see what I'm talking about. An example from CNBC:

Donald Trump's new tax plan gives the top 1 percent an average cut of at least $122,400, while the middle class could get a break of less than $500, according to a new analysis.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/19/donald-t ... -most.html

Plus he wants to eliminate the estate tax and that also will benefit the "rich."

Now, I don't agree with the kind of class envy that exists in association with that kind of thing. But it does exist and it's something the Democrats could exploit.

You're correct in thinking we don't have a good choice. But this stuff of wanting to put a thoroughly dishonest, totally unqualified demagogue with the emotional maturity and stability of a 12 year old and the kind of personality disfunction that would cause him to do things like stalk a British Reporter who did a story he didn't like for 20 years into that position is insane. Sometimes I wonder if people like you have seriously taken a step back and objectively contemplated just how bad this guy is.

What is it? Are you just rationalizing away the obvious signs of serious mental issues this guy has?

[JohnStOnge]

Woke up this morning and saw that the CNN poll estimated 48% thought Pence won vs. 42% thinking Kaine won.

But there's also a lot of discussion about how Kaine would cite things that Trump said, Pence would deny that Trump said them, then assessment would indicate that Trump did indeed say them. One term I heard used this morning is that it's an example of the Trump campaign's "reality adjustment." I guess we can't say it's just flat out lying because we can't be sure that Pence knew that Trump said the things. But that's probably a stretch.

In some cases the program I was watching on CNN stretched it a little. Like Kaine said Trump wants to go house to house to round up illegal immigrants and the clip CNN showed of Trump just had him saying there would be a deportation force and all the people here illegally had to go. But in other cases there was just no way around it. Like Kaine said Trump said NATO is obsolete, Pence said he didn't, and they showed a clip with Trump saying NATO is "obsolete."

That's the problem with dealing with the Trump campaign. It is absolutely the worst ever with respect to just flat out lying. Stuff like this. Where they'll lie even though there is friggin' readily available video clearly showing that they're lying. I think they just rely on most people being ignorant of the mountain of evidence that they lie all the time.

[CAA Flagship]

Wow John. You've been drinking oceans full of Dem Kool-aid. Obama promised the most transparent administration ever and he's put up the most roadblocks. And that adminstration just happened to intervene on behalf of the most corrupt SoS in recent memory, influencing the FBI and the Justice department. How you can sit there and cast stones at Trump when the Clintons have demonstrated she abides only by whatever laws she can't influence is laughable. Class envy? The Clintons have a net worth around $110M, she takes millions from Wall Street to finance her campaign, but she's one of the "middle class" and gets their struggles? Give me a break......
There are ZERO good choices in this election, but somehow you think that Obama 3.0 is the right answer. God help us all.

I didn't say Clinton is a paragon of transparency. The problem for someone like Pence in attacking her lack of transparency is that his running mate is about the least transparent candidate of our lifetimes. And when he does say something about himself it is usually a lie.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Administration intervened to influence the FBI and the Justice Department. You guys need to drop the conspiracy theory crap and just accept that the FBI determined that there was not sufficient basis for charges.

The class envy exploitation I'm suggesting doesn't have to do with comparing Clinton and Trump with respect to how rich they are. It has to do with the long standing public support for soaking the rich tax wise. Trump's tax plan lowers the top marginal rate from 39.6% to 33%. There will be changes in loopholes, but a variety of analysts have consistently said that Trump's plan will result in a big windfall for the wealthiest. Google "Who will Trump's tax plan benefit most" and you'll see what I'm talking about. An example from CNBC:

Donald Trump's new tax plan gives the top 1 percent an average cut of at least $122,400, while the middle class could get a break of less than $500, according to a new analysis.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/19/donald-t ... -most.html

Plus he wants to eliminate the estate tax and that also will benefit the "rich."

Now, I don't agree with the kind of class envy that exists in association with that kind of thing. But it does exist and it's something the Democrats could exploit.

You're correct in thinking we don't have a good choice. But this stuff of wanting to put a thoroughly dishonest, totally unqualified demagogue with the emotional maturity and stability of a 12 year old and the kind of personality disfunction that would cause him to do things like stalk a British Reporter who did a story he didn't like for 20 years into that position is insane. Sometimes I wonder if people like you have seriously taken a step back and objectively contemplated just how bad this guy is.

What is it? Are you just rationalizing away the obvious signs of serious mental issues this guy has?

Estate tax never should have been implemented in the first place. That money was already taxed.

[andy7171]

Holy shnikes! JSO is now for the Estate tax!?!

[93henfan]

Holy shnikes! JSO is now for the Estate tax!?!

He has totally lost it with his hatred of Trump, to the point of compromising his own stated beliefs from the past here. It's so fun to watch. He's at DEFCON 0 now.