How To Pay For Infrastructure

[Ibanez]

It's missing some tolls like the ones imposed on I-85 around Atlanta and I-185 at Greenville, SC.

[89Hen]

Stop welfare money, force people on welfare to work on infrastructure for their money.

That will not get people off welfare, nor will it get anything built.

[89Hen]

It's missing some tolls like the ones imposed on I-85 around Atlanta and I-185 at Greenville, SC.

Probably old. Surprisingly hard to find a map of current toll roads. There are some in NC around Durham too. But the point is, most of them are (e)CB and they do already exist where they matter most.

[Ibanez]

It's missing some tolls like the ones imposed on I-85 around Atlanta and I-185 at Greenville, SC.

Probably old. Surprisingly hard to find a map of current toll roads. There are some in NC around Durham too. But the point is, most of them are (e)CB and they do already exist where they matter most.

EC(b). Must be. The toll road in Gvegas started about 5 or 6 years ago.

[89Hen]

EC(b). Must be. The toll road in Gvegas started about 5 or 6 years ago.

Yeah, how much are you going to collect in Montana... $8 a day?

[Grizalltheway]

EC(b). Must be. The toll road in Gvegas started about 5 or 6 years ago.

Yeah, how much are you going to collect in Montana... $8 a day?

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

[89Hen]

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

I'm not sure you know what a shit ton of traffic looks like. This is an average day here, picture taken from overpass I drive home every day...

[CID1990]

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

I'm not sure you know what a **** ton of traffic looks like. This is an average day here, picture taken from overpass I drive home every day...

That's why I hate going to Potomac

The whole area around the 495-270 interchange was designed by a special needs 4th grade class


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[Grizalltheway]

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

I'm not sure you know what a shit ton of traffic looks like. This is an average day here, picture taken from overpass I drive home every day...

Okay, maybe shit-ton isn't the right word. More than you might think, though.

[89Hen]

That's why I hate going to Potomac

The whole area around the 495-270 interchange was designed by a special needs 4th grade class

What's worse now is that GPS has fucked the back roads. People now "save" two minutes by jumping on the side roads to get one or two more exits up the road. I've lived in the same house and worked in the same office for 17 years and I've seen backups the last two years that I had never seen before in my life.

BTW, it's still not as bad as 66 and the mixing bowl.

[CID1990]

That's why I hate going to Potomac

The whole area around the 495-270 interchange was designed by a special needs 4th grade class

What's worse now is that GPS has **** the back roads. People now "save" two minutes by jumping on the side roads to get one or two more exits up the road. I've lived in the same house and worked in the same office for 17 years and I've seen backups the last two years that I had never seen before in my life.

BTW, it's still not as bad as 66 and the mixing bowl.

I scoot through the mixing bowl in the pulloff lane on my bike

Easy peasy


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[CAA Flagship]

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

I'm not sure you know what a shit ton of traffic looks like. This is an average day here, picture taken from overpass I drive home every day...

Don't go back to Rockville and waste another year.

[BDKJMU]

As the economy improves, more trucks will be busy. Tax diesel fuel. Done.

Diesel is already taxed at a national avg of 55 cents a gallon..Raising the cost of virtually every store bought good = not good for the economy..

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Stop welfare money, force people on welfare to work on infrastructure for their money.

That will not get people off welfare, nor will it get anything built.

When did we try this?

Starvation is a great motivator

[BDKJMU]

One thing about tolls-

They are a lot like funding for entitlement programs.... politicians love to tamper with them. If they could put in a rule requiring that the tolls can go towards paying for road and bridge improvements only, then I'd be in favor. But they won't do that, and the tolls would remain in place after the improvements are paid for and ongoing maintenance is covered

One thing that I liked about El Salvador was their highways. In a brief surprising moment of sanity, functionality and pragmatism several years ago, the Salvadoran government established a fixed budget item protected by law which is solely dedicated to highway construction and upkeep. ES has the best roads anywhere in Central America. Lawmakers knew that this part of the budget would be pillaged by future politicians, so they wrote it into law.

If we had done the same with social security back during the New Deal it wouldn't be a problem today.


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Agreed. Delaware River Port Authority in the SE PA/S NJ/DE is one of the worst. For decades the crooks who ran it siphoned off 100s of millions for stadiums (like the Linc, Citizens Bank, Philadelphia Union stadium), theaters (Kimmel Center) and so called community redevelopment projects. Also has and continues to siphon off a ton for mass transit.

PA turnpike is another example. Had massive toll increase as I recall in 03' (about 40%). They claimed at the time that it was the 1st increase in 15 years. Another huge increase in 08' (about 25%) that mostly went to mass transit. Now it is indexed for inflation and goes up a few % every year. The PA Turnpike Commission has been known for decades as a huge patronage dumping ground on both sides of the political aisle, rife with corruption & inefficiency.

I would have a problem with tolls at all as long as:
-100% went to towards building and maintaining roads and bridges. None for subsidizing mass transit.
-It wasn't a monopoly for union labor like it is in the non right to work states.

[BDKJMU]

It's missing some tolls like the ones imposed on I-85 around Atlanta and I-185 at Greenville, SC.

Yep. It shows none for VA, yet:


Doesn't show the MD Bay Bridge by Annapolis or the Harry Nice Bridge over the Potomac connecting MD to Dahlgren, VA.

Shows none for Texas, yet:
https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-i ... ridges.pdf
I knew the DFW area had a lot of tolls from being down there this past Jan for the JMU/YSU NC game..

I know there's more than what's shown in FL because I was down there for 11 days 2nd half of Feb. Read that FL has over 700 miles toll roads, more than any other state. Got hit up for $29 cashless, toll by plate tolls..

[Chizzang]

Uh....what you described is most decidedly NOT a world-dominating military. Which I think was kind of Chizzy's point.

that's because Chizz assumed i want one

he was skirting real close to a straw man there but i let him slide.... i figure it was just a lack of attention

Two weeks ago you went on and on about how much we needed a giant military
YOU came lilting right out of the Hawks Closet draped in an F35 night gown
and explained why it was so important

Why the change of heart..?

[CAA Flagship]

As the economy improves, more trucks will be busy. Tax diesel fuel. Done.

Diesel is already taxed at a national avg of 55 cents a gallon..Raising the cost of virtually every store bought good = not good for the economy..

Here is the logic:
Roads and bridges are designed, at great cost, to handle heavy loads from trucks. They would be less expensive if trucks were not permitted on them.

So let's say the truck is hauling some fine Bud Light.
The truck will carry approx. 5500 cases of beer (cans).
Let's say the truck burns 100 gallons of diesel (round trip).
And let's say the additional tax is 10 cents per gallon.
That would generate 10 dollars of tax revenue.
10 dollars spread out over the 5500 cases of beer would be an extra $0.002 per case.
So in this example, a 10 cent per gallon tax would have a negligible effect on the cost of Bud Light.

Adding 10 cents/gal tax on 140 billion gallons of diesel consumed in the US each year would generate 14 billion dollars.

Well, shit. That doesn't come close to the 1 Trillion or so that is needed.
Fuck it. Time to tell the truck to pull over and break open the beer.

[CID1990]

that's because Chizz assumed i want one

he was skirting real close to a straw man there but i let him slide.... i figure it was just a lack of attention

Two weeks ago you went on and on about how much we needed a giant military
YOU came lilting right out of the Hawks Closet draped in an F35 night gown
and explained why it was so important

Why the change of heart..?

Maybe I wasn't clear. My intent was to outline what we would need to do in terms of military spending in order to both continue our current mission of global referee and provide for our own defense simultaneously. I am not in favor of doing this.

Two reasons:

1. It isn't possible outside of an eminent threat that Americans take seriously ... and I'm not sure what Americans would take seriously at this point.

2. It would require a retooling that would cost MUCH more than the 54 billion hike Trump is asking for.

But that said, the vast majority of materiel that can be used in both static and mobile defense is OUTSIDE the US, guaranteeing the security of countries that assume none of the cost. If we brought those assets home, then there would be little extra cost to to us outside of the usual maintenance and modernization. We would also drop pre-positioning costs as well as all the costs of maintaining deployments.

Korea, Japan, all of Europe and the Middle East - that's a HUGE amount of overseas presence that I'd bring home next week if I could. It wouldn't solely pay for this coming infrastructure boondoggle, but but would effectively be the biggest cut we could make in terms of annual operating costs.

BTW- the F-35 - we don't have near the numbers of those for them to be viable. We either need to quadruple their numbers or think of something else. I'm talking reality here - not what I think we should do (and in the case of this plane and current realities in government procurement, I don't know what the answer is)




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[BDKJMU]

Diesel is already taxed at a national avg of 55 cents a gallon..Raising the cost of virtually every store bought good = not good for the economy..

Here is the logic:
Roads and bridges are designed, at great cost, to handle heavy loads from trucks. They would be less expensive if trucks were not permitted on them.

So let's say the truck is hauling some fine Bud Light.
The truck will carry approx. 5500 cases of beer (cans).
Let's say the truck burns 100 gallons of diesel (round trip).
And let's say the additional tax is 10 cents per gallon.
That would generate 10 dollars of tax revenue.
10 dollars spread out over the 5500 cases of beer would be an extra $0.002 per case.
So in this example, a 10 cent per gallon tax would have a negligible effect on the cost of Bud Light.

Adding 10 cents/gal tax on 140 billion gallons of diesel consumed in the US each year would generate 14 billion dollars.

Well, ****. That doesn't come close to the 1 Trillion or so that is needed.
**** it. Time to tell the truck to pull over and break open the beer.

Avg loaded 18 wheeler gets about 5 mpg diesel. So an avg of 100 gallons per roundtrip trip would = avg about 500 miles, 250 each way. With 12 budweiser beer breweries in the US, that sounds about right.

One that 5500 cases sounds awfully high (55000 cases would be 132k beers). This says 1k+ cases:
http://answers.kgb.com/how-many-cases-o ... e/18977865
And even if could fit more than 1k, there are weight restrictions.

2nd a lot of that 140 billion gallons of diesel consumed in the US each year is by govt (local/state/fed) which you're not getting new tax revenue from. If a govt agency pays tax on the diesel they purchase, that's just moving money around from agency/level of govt to another.

3rd, as you pointed out, going to need a lot more than 14 billion a year...Trump's plan calls for 1 trillion over 10 years, or 100 billion a year

So lets assume that non govt consumes 100 of that 140 billion gallons of diesel fuel each year. Increase the tax at 10 cents a gallon = $10 billion. Going to need to increase it at about a $1.00 a gallon to get to 100 billion a year. That would take the avg tax up to about $1.55 a gallon. Now you create all kinds of problems doing that from increased shipping costs over a wide range of goods and services, to increased costs for farmers (tractors & combines) to killing the sales of diesel cars, SUVs and light trucks in the US, etc, etc,.

But with such a drastic tax hike you've cut the use of diesel, pushing more to gas, so you've got to raise the tax even more..

[Skjellyfetti]

But that said, the vast majority of materiel that can be used in both static and mobile defense is OUTSIDE the US, guaranteeing the security of countries that assume none of the cost. If we brought those assets home, then there would be little extra cost to to us outside of the usual maintenance and modernization. We would also drop pre-positioning costs as well as all the costs of maintaining deployments.

Korea, Japan, all of Europe and the Middle East - that's a HUGE amount of overseas presence that I'd bring home next week if I could. It wouldn't solely pay for this coming infrastructure boondoggle, but but would effectively be the biggest cut we could make in terms of annual operating costs.

Read recently (don't remember where... so, it could be wrong) that we spend ~$150 billion a year on overseas bases.

That's roughly 25% of our defense budget.

That would pay for a $1 trillion infrastructure plan over 10 years.

[Gil Dobie]

There's actually a shit-ton of truck and tourist (especially in the summer) traffic on I-90. Driver-over country and all that.

I'm not sure you know what a **** ton of traffic looks like. This is an average day here, picture taken from overpass I drive home every day...

Looks like the Twin Cities, minus about 50 Semi's mixed in the traffic.

And, yes, when you mix in semi's and old infrastructure, this can happen.


Here's a smaller view of traffic with Semi's

[Ivytalk]

Just saw Internet meme about Portland (OR) anarchists filling in the potholes that the city refuses to fix.

WC(b), libertarian style, FTW.

[Ibanez]

Diesel is already taxed at a national avg of 55 cents a gallon..Raising the cost of virtually every store bought good = not good for the economy..

Here is the logic:
Roads and bridges are designed, at great cost, to handle heavy loads from trucks. They would be less expensive if trucks were not permitted on them.

So let's say the truck is hauling some fine Bud Light.
The truck will carry approx. 5500 cases of beer (cans).
Let's say the truck burns 100 gallons of diesel (round trip).
And let's say the additional tax is 10 cents per gallon.
That would generate 10 dollars of tax revenue.
10 dollars spread out over the 5500 cases of beer would be an extra $0.002 per case.
So in this example, a 10 cent per gallon tax would have a negligible effect on the cost of Bud Light.

Adding 10 cents/gal tax on 140 billion gallons of diesel consumed in the US each year would generate 14 billion dollars.

Well, shit. That doesn't come close to the 1 Trillion or so that is needed.
Fuck it. Time to tell the truck to pull over and break open the beer.

What are you, some sort of engineer?

[Ibanez]

But that said, the vast majority of materiel that can be used in both static and mobile defense is OUTSIDE the US, guaranteeing the security of countries that assume none of the cost. If we brought those assets home, then there would be little extra cost to to us outside of the usual maintenance and modernization. We would also drop pre-positioning costs as well as all the costs of maintaining deployments.

Korea, Japan, all of Europe and the Middle East - that's a HUGE amount of overseas presence that I'd bring home next week if I could. It wouldn't solely pay for this coming infrastructure boondoggle, but but would effectively be the biggest cut we could make in terms of annual operating costs.

Read recently (don't remember where... so, it could be wrong) that we spend ~$150 billion a year on overseas bases.

That's roughly 25% of our defense budget.

That would pay for a $1 trillion infrastructure plan over 10 years.

Yeah..but we need those 800 or so bases, camps, stations, etc... to protect Europe. Clearly, they can't defend themselves.

I'm all for drastically reducing our presence overseas. We've been known to reduce our presence in some areas (See Okinawa).