AZGrizFan wrote:
Agreed. And the sooner the better. Can't wait until the fiscal conservatives/socially moderate Goldwater Republicans retake control of the party.
I too would like to see this, but the LP is much closer to Goldwater Republicanism than the current GOP--of course, you'd never admit that fact.
Yes, I would. Which is the reason I've begun identifying myself as a Libertarian (much to Cappy's chagrin, I might add )....but that STILL doesn't make the Libertarian party a force to be reckoned with in national elections.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:as for Z's quaint notion that they will return to "goldwater principles"... I remind Z that Barry himself recanted his right-wing positions later in life... as for their ability to wrest control of the party... those conservatives make up far too small a faction to have much of a chance.
Barry recanting them doesn't make them wrong.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
ASUMountaineer wrote:
I too would like to see this, but the LP is much closer to Goldwater Republicanism than the current GOP--of course, you'd never admit that fact.
Yes, I would. Which is the reason I've begun identifying myself as a Libertarian (much to Cappy's chagrin, I might add )....but that STILL doesn't make the Libertarian party a force to be reckoned with in national elections.
Good for you...and it is not a force...yet. Who knows what will happen--I mean, a black man is president.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
The LP is a shitshow because it can't get out of it's own way and stop, as was said above, appealing to extreme, damn near anarchist base. they nearly soiled themselves over Bob Barr, and even after endorsing him, much of their membership screamed "sell out"
as for the "they need to make peace with the evangelicals" as was said above... that's what got you the farce of the last few years... like it or not... that party is gone in terms of electoral viability in most regions of this country.
the Dems model of allowing moderates to be moderate and winning congressional elections at the local level has been the underpinning of their success.
The fact is, the GOP has too very distinct ideologies in their ranks and they essentially have nothing in common anymore.
as for Z's quaint notion that they will return to "goldwater principles"... I remind Z that Barry himself recanted his right-wing positions later in life... as for their ability to wrest control of the party... those conservatives make up far too small a faction to have much of a chance.
I'm not sure I'd classify that as a "shitshow," as much as I'd say it's a small (but growing) party that is trying to figure out how to become viable while pulling in disenchanted GOP members. I have noticed that many libertarians take pride in being as such and don't like outsiders--mainly because they don't want become the same as the GOP. They have been getting in their own way much like the Dems did in the late 80s and early 90s. The LP needs a real, genuine voice that can lead the party much like Clinton did for the Dems--Bob Barr isn't it.
We'll see what happens, I don't think there's a way to "make peace with the evangelicals." Most of them are not interested in personal freedom for everyone. They also don't seem to support less government action. I think you're spot on, it would be disadvantageous for the LP to attempt that. I wish to see a viable third party, representing true Republicanism. However, I am cynical.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
"Duty is the sublimest word in the English Language"
"Save in defense of my native State I hope to never again draw my sword"
Genl Robert E. Lee
Confederate States of America
Appaholic wrote:
Isn't that basically why the GOP is a farcical shadow of it's former selves? The fact is, unless the GOP weens itself from the evangelical teet, then it is a non-entity in future elections....the ability of the evangelical wing of the GOP to dominate it's party has led to it's current demise...so much so that liberterians and moderate GOPers were willing to vote for a no-show third party or cast their lot with the moderate dems...it amazes me how the Dems, in all of the screw-ups and liberal demogoguery, still made a place at the table for the moderate faction of their party (which enabled basically a sweep in the last election) yet the GOP, in their infinite wisdom, seem to think staying the course on their exclusionary ideology is the way to grow the party....the GOP is losing middle America...they'll keep it until the current 50+ crowd of middle America die off, then they will go the way of the Whig party whistling the theme to Rush's show on their trek to obscurity.....what a shame....
Weening itself from the Evangelical teat is not the solution and would be a faster path to suicide because it would guarantee permanent junior varsity status for a liberal Big Government Republican party. Rather, finding common ground and making peace with the Christian right is the solution. It's not the Christians but the self absorbed libertines who are obstructionist on political issues. Instead of building bridges, they make sport of Judeo-Christian values. Practical operatives like Ralph Reed are ready to find common cause and make peace. Had Colin Powell been willing reach out and make such peace, he would have been the first black President in U.S. history.
That's delusional, no offense intended Native. How can you chastise the liberterian faction for being obstructionists while in the same breath chastise them for being party to the JV Big Government? Isn't it the evangelical faction of the GOP that is imploring big government to outlaw certain social practices? How about their unwillingness to compromise on the abortion issue? A little levity here.....
“It’s like someone found a manic, doom-prophesying hobo in a sandwich board, shaved him, shot him full of Zoloft and gave him a show.” - The Buffalo Beast commenting on Glenn Beck
The LP will do better when its "conventions" don't resemble packs of short-sleeved, gap-toothed, pimply computer geeks with bad breath and pocket liners who can't even pick up chicks, much less win elections.
Ivytalk wrote:The LP will do better when its "conventions" don't resemble packs of short-sleeved, gap-toothed, pimply computer geeks with bad breath and pocket liners who can't even pick up chicks, much less win elections.
ASUMountaineer in 5-4-3-2-...
Ivy, are you having flashbacks to your time on the Yawd?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
Ivytalk wrote:The LP will do better when its "conventions" don't resemble packs of short-sleeved, gap-toothed, pimply computer geeks with bad breath and pocket liners who can't even pick up chicks, much less win elections.
ASUMountaineer in 5-4-3-2-...
Ivy, are you having flashbacks to your time on the Yawd?
oh please, anyone matching that description is at MIT...
Haaahvad is for hipster assholes and preppies with trust funds
North Dakota State University Bison 2011 and 2012 National Champions
Ivytalk wrote:The LP will do better when its "conventions" don't resemble packs of short-sleeved, gap-toothed, pimply computer geeks with bad breath and pocket liners who can't even pick up chicks, much less win elections.
ASUMountaineer in 5-4-3-2-...
Ok. I'm not your fcuking monkey!
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
native wrote:
Weening itself from the Evangelical teat is not the solution and would be a faster path to suicide because it would guarantee permanent junior varsity status for a liberal Big Government Republican party. Rather, finding common ground and making peace with the Christian right is the solution. It's not the Christians but the self absorbed libertines who are obstructionist on political issues. Instead of building bridges, they make sport of Judeo-Christian values. Practical operatives like Ralph Reed are ready to find common cause and make peace. Had Colin Powell been willing reach out and make such peace, he would have been the first black President in U.S. history.
That's delusional, no offense intended Native. How can you chastise the liberterian faction for being obstructionists while in the same breath chastise them for being party to the JV Big Government? Isn't it the evangelical faction of the GOP that is imploring big government to outlaw certain social practices? How about their unwillingness to compromise on the abortion issue? A little levity here.....
Didn't mean to imply that the LP was for big government!
But you're probably right, Appy. A raproachmont between libertarians and evangelicals is is most likely delusional.
Too bad, because small government and original intent would solve a lot of problems for both groups!
Proud Prince of Purple Pomposity YT is not a communist. He's just a ...young pup.
Ivytalk wrote:The Libertarian resume sounds great until you get to the part called, uh, foreign policy.
Right, because the party of Bush, Cheney, Newt and Rush have done a fantastic job when it comes to foreign policy.
Word.
Even more amazing is that now that their name is garbage on the street their idea of a fresh start is to try and resusitate a tired old retread like Newt Gingrich.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.
"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
Appaholic wrote:
That's delusional, no offense intended Native. How can you chastise the liberterian faction for being obstructionists while in the same breath chastise them for being party to the JV Big Government? Isn't it the evangelical faction of the GOP that is imploring big government to outlaw certain social practices? How about their unwillingness to compromise on the abortion issue? A little levity here.....
Didn't mean to imply that the LP was for big government!
But you're probably right, Appy. A raproachmont between libertarians and evangelicals is is most likely delusional.
Too bad, because small government and original intent would solve a lot of problems for both groups!
It's delusional because the evangelicals are ideologues to the point that having been thoroughly discredited their plan is more of the same shit that nobody wanted.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.
"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
ASUMountaineer wrote:
Right, because the party of Bush, Cheney, Newt and Rush have done a fantastic job when it comes to foreign policy.
Word.
Even more amazing is that now that their name is garbage on the street their idea of a fresh start is to try and resusitate a tired old retread like Newt Gingrich.
Let's face it....Newt's the only "legitimate" choice as presidential candidate the current incarnation of GOP has left....
“It’s like someone found a manic, doom-prophesying hobo in a sandwich board, shaved him, shot him full of Zoloft and gave him a show.” - The Buffalo Beast commenting on Glenn Beck
ASUMountaineer wrote:Bump, this was great when it happened...and it really foreshadowed the impending demise of the party. They seem too hard-headed to learn.
lol... enjoy losing the battle for the soul of the GOP to the evangelicals...
further enjoy trying to get the shitshow that is the libertarians organized...
lastly, enjoy the brawl between the libertarians and the evangelical-controlled GOP for viability in a two-party system...
this could be a good couple of years
TTBF, your post about the Blue Dog Democrats in another thread made me think of a question I wanted to ask you and this seemed like an appropriate enough thread to ask it in. You've posted quite a few times about the problems the Republicans are facing and the future they are facing. I agree that what you've posted is a definite possibility but have to ask how you think it will affect the Democrats, especially the Blue Dogs?
What are the chances that the more liberal elements in the Democratic Party let the power go to their heads and take a hard line stance and require strict adherence to their agenda? This will put the Blue Dogs (conservative Democrats elected in Republican leaning districts) between a rock and a hard place. Either they please their party and risk alienating their constituents or vice versa. Rahm and others went to a lot of trouble to find and support these candidates. Is there a chance that Pelosi or others could push them too far and create a rift in the Democratic Party?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
lol... enjoy losing the battle for the soul of the GOP to the evangelicals...
further enjoy trying to get the shitshow that is the libertarians organized...
lastly, enjoy the brawl between the libertarians and the evangelical-controlled GOP for viability in a two-party system...
this could be a good couple of years
TTBF, your post about the Blue Dog Democrats in another thread made me think of a question I wanted to ask you and this seemed like an appropriate enough thread to ask it in. You've posted quite a few times about the problems the Republicans are facing and the future they are facing. I agree that what you've posted is a definite possibility but have to ask how you think it will affect the Democrats, especially the Blue Dogs?
What are the chances that the more liberal elements in the Democratic Party let the power go to their heads and take a hard line stance and require strict adherence to their agenda? This will put the Blue Dogs (conservative Democrats elected in Republican leaning districts) between a rock and a hard place. Either they please their party and risk alienating their constituents or vice versa. Rahm and others went to a lot of trouble to find and support these candidates. Is there a chance that Pelosi or others could push them too far and create a rift in the Democratic Party?
oh... it's a very real concern. read daily kos (where the fringe gather to sew the seeds of this every day) and you'll see evidence of it.
however, I think the upshot for the party is that before our rift can't be politically exploited, it needs to be opened up significantly more than it is already... and there needs to be a political force out there with its shit together enough to bring those elements in to their party... and the GOP isn't there, they are too busy imploding and figuring out where the hell they are going to do it.
that said, long term (and i tend to think it's quite a distance) it's where the break will come within the party... i dont know when or how it will happen, but nothing is static in politics, so it will happen...
North Dakota State University Bison 2011 and 2012 National Champions
“It’s like someone found a manic, doom-prophesying hobo in a sandwich board, shaved him, shot him full of Zoloft and gave him a show.” - The Buffalo Beast commenting on Glenn Beck
"Duty is the sublimest word in the English Language"
"Save in defense of my native State I hope to never again draw my sword"
Genl Robert E. Lee
Confederate States of America
ASUMountaineer wrote:
I too would like to see this, but the LP is much closer to Goldwater Republicanism than the current GOP--of course, you'd never admit that fact.
Yes, I would. Which is the reason I've begun identifying myself as a Libertarian (much to Cappy's chagrin, I might add )....but that STILL doesn't make the Libertarian party a force to be reckoned with in national elections.
Cappy's not a libertarian. He is an anarchist.
Proud Prince of Purple Pomposity YT is not a communist. He's just a ...young pup.
AZGrizFan wrote:
Yes, I would. Which is the reason I've begun identifying myself as a Libertarian (much to Cappy's chagrin, I might add )....but that STILL doesn't make the Libertarian party a force to be reckoned with in national elections.
Cappy's not a libertarian. He is an antichrist.
fify
North Dakota State University Bison 2011 and 2012 National Champions
ASUMountaineer wrote:... I don't think there's a way to "make peace with the evangelicals." Most of them are not interested in personal freedom for everyone. They also don't seem to support less government action. I think you're spot on, it would be disadvantageous for the LP to attempt that. I wish to see a viable third party, representing true Republicanism. However, I am cynical.
Your fears of the Evangelicals are more imaginary than real in terms of public policy results, ASUMountaineer.
Which enlarged government agency have the Evangelicals supported? None. There are ONLY two issues strongly supported by evangelicals which offend libertarians, abortion and gay marriage. Neither is an issue of big government.
The only big government supported by the religious right has been the war in Iraq, and many on the religious right have been disabused of their illusions about the limits of military power abroad.
Newt Gingrich is clever enough to establish and articulate public policy positions which will simultaneously appease the religious right and appeal to libertarians. If Newt could make peace and find common cause with Ron Paul, he could also retain enough credibility with much of the religious right to pull of the rapproachement of which I dream.
Proud Prince of Purple Pomposity YT is not a communist. He's just a ...young pup.
ASUMountaineer wrote:... I don't think there's a way to "make peace with the evangelicals." Most of them are not interested in personal freedom for everyone. They also don't seem to support less government action. I think you're spot on, it would be disadvantageous for the LP to attempt that. I wish to see a viable third party, representing true Republicanism. However, I am cynical.
Your fears of the Evangelicals are more imaginary than real in terms of public policy results, ASUMountaineer.
Which enlarged government agency have the Evangelicals supported? None. There are ONLY two issues strongly supported by evangelicals which offend libertarians, abortion and gay marriage. Neither is an issue of big government.
The only big government supported by the religious right has been the war in Iraq, and many on the religious right have been disabused of their illusions about the limits of military power abroad.
Newt Gingrich is clever enough to establish and articulate public policy positions which will simultaneously appease the religious right and appeal to libertarians. If Newt could make peace and find common cause with Ron Paul, he could also retain enough credibility with much of the religious right to pull of the rapproachement of which I dream.
It's more along the lines of who they voted for. They ridiculed Clinton because of his affair and his social liberalism, yet supported Bush and his big government, civil rights be damned liberalism--because he was socially conservative. That's in addition to their support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, all abortions to be outlawed, and a comfort with the government having complete control of people inside their own homes.
You're not looking at the big picture. Evangelicals (I consider myself one, being a good Southern Baptist) as a voting block will live with a strong, central government so long as it is socially conservative. I'm the opposite, I'd rather let people live (rather than legislate morality) and have less government intrusion.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
Even more amazing is that now that their name is garbage on the street their idea of a fresh start is to try and resusitate a tired old retread like Newt Gingrich.
Let's face it....Newt's the only "legitimate" choice as presidential candidate the current incarnation of GOP has left....
No way the family values crowd votes for him with his personal history, not to mention his ethics censure by Congress..
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.
"I really love America. I just don't know how to get there anymore."John Prine
)....but that STILL doesn't make the Libertarian party a force to be reckoned with in national elections. 
