The Quran and Terrorism.

[Chizzang]

When Sam Harris said he was pretty sure the Koran was "The mother load of bad ideas"
he wasn't being sarcastic... it is quite literally FULL of bad ideas (as 93hefan points out above)

[SDHornet]

Chizzy dominates this topic...and he is well versed in the Sam Harris kneecapping of Islam's double standards. Best be clear to stay out of his way when these threads come up.

Keep crushing it bud!

BTW the Sam Harris v Reza Islam Youtube vids are good entertainment.

[kalm]

So it's a bad thing when moderate Muslims speak out against radical islam?

Universally, they don't
They do what this clown does and say it's not really Islam



kalm, the game is afoot
Muslims en mass are playing hide and seek with doctrine
and their global spokes person and apologist illusionist extraordinaire Reza Aslan is THE master

Instead of typing lackluster one liners you should just post his video clips

Just trying to get to the bottom of this as I've never learned Arabic much less read the Quran, and this writer seemed sincere. I looked him up and he's not a mainstream Muslim, he's an Ahmadi.

Here's their take on Jihad:


Main article: Ahmadiyya view on Jihad
According to Ahmadi Muslim belief, Jihad can be divided into three categories: Jihad al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) is that against the self and refers to striving against one's low desires such as anger, lust and hatred; Jihad al-Kabīr (Great Jihad) refers to the peaceful propagation of Islam, with special emphasis on spreading the true message of Islam by the pen; Jihad al-Asghar (Smaller Jihad) is an armed struggle only to be resorted to in self-defence under situations of extreme religious persecution whilst not being able to follow one's fundamental religious beliefs, and even then only under the direct instruction of the Caliph.[57] Ahmadi Muslims point out that as per Islamic prophecy, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad rendered Jihad in its military form as inapplicable in the present age as Islam, as a religion, is not being attacked militarily but through literature and other media, and therefore the response should be likewise.[58] They believe that the answer of hate should be given by love.[59]

Concerning terrorism, the fourth Caliph of the Community wrote in 1989:

As far as Islam is concerned, it categorically rejects and condemns every form of terrorism. It does not provide any cover or justification for any act of violence, be it committed by an individual, a group or a government.[60]

Sorry, it just doesn't seem like the belief in Jihad and use of terrorism is quite (to co-opt your word) universal.

Or is it that Rumi, the Sufi mystics, and Cat Stevens are really just full of shit?

[Ivytalk]

Universally, they don't
They do what this clown does and say it's not really Islam



kalm, the game is afoot
Muslims en mass are playing hide and seek with doctrine
and their global spokes person and apologist illusionist extraordinaire Reza Aslan is THE master

Instead of typing lackluster one liners you should just post his video clips

Just trying to get to the bottom of this as I've never learned Arabic much less read the Quran, and this writer seemed sincere. I looked him up and he's not a mainstream Muslim, he's an Ahmadi.

Here's their take on Jihad:


Main article: Ahmadiyya view on Jihad
According to Ahmadi Muslim belief, Jihad can be divided into three categories: Jihad al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) is that against the self and refers to striving against one's low desires such as anger, lust and hatred; Jihad al-Kabīr (Great Jihad) refers to the peaceful propagation of Islam, with special emphasis on spreading the true message of Islam by the pen; Jihad al-Asghar (Smaller Jihad) is an armed struggle only to be resorted to in self-defence under situations of extreme religious persecution whilst not being able to follow one's fundamental religious beliefs, and even then only under the direct instruction of the Caliph.[57] Ahmadi Muslims point out that as per Islamic prophecy, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad rendered Jihad in its military form as inapplicable in the present age as Islam, as a religion, is not being attacked militarily but through literature and other media, and therefore the response should be likewise.[58] They believe that the answer of hate should be given by love.[59]

Concerning terrorism, the fourth Caliph of the Community wrote in 1989:

As far as Islam is concerned, it categorically rejects and condemns every form of terrorism. It does not provide any cover or justification for any act of violence, be it committed by an individual, a group or a government.[60]

Sorry, it just doesn't seem like the belief in Jihad and use of terrorism is quite (to co-opt your word) universal.

Or is that Rumi, the Sufi mystics, and Cat Stevens are really just full of ****?

Better ride on the Peace Train!

[kalm]

Just trying to get to the bottom of this as I've never learned Arabic much less read the Quran, and this writer seemed sincere. I looked him up and he's not a mainstream Muslim, he's an Ahmadi.

Here's their take on Jihad:


Main article: Ahmadiyya view on Jihad
According to Ahmadi Muslim belief, Jihad can be divided into three categories: Jihad al-Akbar (Greater Jihad) is that against the self and refers to striving against one's low desires such as anger, lust and hatred; Jihad al-Kabīr (Great Jihad) refers to the peaceful propagation of Islam, with special emphasis on spreading the true message of Islam by the pen; Jihad al-Asghar (Smaller Jihad) is an armed struggle only to be resorted to in self-defence under situations of extreme religious persecution whilst not being able to follow one's fundamental religious beliefs, and even then only under the direct instruction of the Caliph.[57] Ahmadi Muslims point out that as per Islamic prophecy, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad rendered Jihad in its military form as inapplicable in the present age as Islam, as a religion, is not being attacked militarily but through literature and other media, and therefore the response should be likewise.[58] They believe that the answer of hate should be given by love.[59]

Concerning terrorism, the fourth Caliph of the Community wrote in 1989:

As far as Islam is concerned, it categorically rejects and condemns every form of terrorism. It does not provide any cover or justification for any act of violence, be it committed by an individual, a group or a government.[60]

Sorry, it just doesn't seem like the belief in Jihad and use of terrorism is quite (to co-opt your word) universal.

Or is that Rumi, the Sufi mystics, and Cat Stevens are really just full of ****?

Better ride on the Peace Train!

Don't get me wrong. The amount and degree of ignorance and violence emanating from that religion is staggering and I appreciate Cleets-Harris for highlighting this. But I also wonder about solutions. We can't kill them all, so supporting the moderates seems reasonable as does not selling them weapons. Beyond that, any military intervention at this point should fall on the laps of the entire world community. Unless of course there are strategic energy concerns.

Just trying to avoid throwing the Whirling Dervishes out with the bath water.

[ASUG8]

I'm not convinced there is a solution. When the muslims aren't busy lashing out at the Great Satan they're infighting with all their sects as they've done for centuries. God help all of us if they ever completely align against the non-muslim world. The irony is that most religions preach peace, but millions have died in the quest for bringing new converts into the fold.

Presbyterians, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may have different interpretations of the bible, but we're not exactly breaking out the AR-15's to show each other how much better our view is than the rest. That seems to be unique to Islam.

[Ibanez]

I'm not convinced there is a solution. When the muslims aren't busy lashing out at the Great Satan they're infighting with all their sects as they've done for centuries. God help all of us if they ever completely align against the non-muslim world. The irony is that most religions preach peace, but millions have died in the quest for bringing new converts into the fold.

Presbyterians, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may have different interpretations of the bible, but we're not exactly breaking out the AR-15's to show each other how much better our view is than the rest. That seems to be unique to Islam.

Today...yes. In the past...not so much.

[ASUG8]

Today...yes. In the past...not so much.

Yeah, I'm certainly not giving Christianity a pass on this either. It's just it seems they evolved to a less violent means of worship than the muslims.

[Ivytalk]

Presbyterians, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may have different interpretations of the bible, but we're not exactly breaking out the AR-15's to show each other how much better our view is than the rest. That seems to be unique to Islam.

Yeah. If the Christian denominations are fighting over one thing these days, it's to see which one can be the biggest gay dating service.

[kalm]

Today...yes. In the past...not so much.

Yeah, I'm certainly not giving Christianity a pass on this either. It's just it seems they evolved to a less violent means of worship than the muslims.

Yes. Islam is the definition of backwards.

Thats also why people like Erik Prince and Karl Rove should shut the fuck up about waging war as Christian's. A few secular/moderate dads in Muslim countries have held their dead children after bomb strikes carried out by a "Christian" nation.

[mrklean]

Today...yes. In the past...not so much.

Yeah, I'm certainly not giving Christianity a pass on this either. It's just it seems they evolved to a less violent means of worship than the muslims.

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

[Skjellyfetti]

Presbyterians, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may have different interpretations of the bible, but we're not exactly breaking out the AR-15's to show each other how much better our view is than the rest. That seems to be unique to Islam.

They're mostly in Africa.

Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes.

The cycle of chaos is fast becoming one of the worst outbreaks of violence along Muslim-Christian fault lines in recent memory in sub-Saharan Africa, tensions that have also plagued countries such as Nigeria and Sudan.

The brutalities began to escalate when the country’s first Muslim leader, Michel Djotodia, stepped down and went into exile last month. Djotodia, who had seized power in a coup last March, had been under pressure from regional leaders to resign. His departure was meant to bring stability to this poor country, but humanitarian and human rights workers say there is more violence now than at any time since the coup.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/af ... 13818a3fa0

[Chizzang]

Yeah, I'm certainly not giving Christianity a pass on this either. It's just it seems they evolved to a less violent means of worship than the muslims.

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

irrelevant ^
and every religion has nuts - nobody would (or could) argue that point, it's meaningless it's so common

What we're talking about is a RELIGIOUS REFORMATION
Where leaders of the faith stand up and announce reform - almost literally bang a thesis on the front door
(As Martin Luther did)

Judaism / Christianity / Hindi have all had SIGNIFICANT reformation movements
Where huge swaths of the collective moved against the fundamentalists

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

[mrklean]

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

Everyone has the right to throw stones...
and every religion has nuts - nobody would (or could) argue that point, it's meaningless it's so common

What we're talking about is a RELIGIOUS REFORMATION
Where leaders of the faith stand up and announce reform - almost literally bang a thesis on the front door
(As Martin Luther did)

Judaism / Christianity / Hindi have all had SIGNIFICANT reformation movements
Where huge swaths of the collective moved against the fundamentalists

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

I won't paint the entire religion of Islam as violent. Most Muslims that I know are very hospitable people who are hard working. To me, this is the true face of Islam, not a fvcking nut cutting off heads on Youtube.

[kalm]

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

Everyone has the right to throw stones...
and every religion has nuts - nobody would (or could) argue that point, it's meaningless it's so common

What we're talking about is a RELIGIOUS REFORMATION
Where leaders of the faith stand up and announce reform - almost literally bang a thesis on the front door
(As Martin Luther did)

Judaism / Christianity / Hindi have all had SIGNIFICANT reformation movements
Where huge swaths of the collective moved against the fundamentalists

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

Agreed, but have we not also been complicit in propping up Muslim leaders that kill dissenting moderates?

Oh that's right...I forget, the moderates like the author in the OP are "apologists" and part of the problem...

Who are the needed reformers? Where do they come from?

[OL FU]

Yeah, I'm certainly not giving Christianity a pass on this either. It's just it seems they evolved to a less violent means of worship than the muslims.

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

My take on Christianity is a little different. It actually started out as a very peaceful religion hiding from Roman persecution. It grew in spite of that persecution. Then the Romans co-opted it and the Christian religion then spent the next 1600 years or so being part or all of the government and the ruling class. So yes, Christians support bad things but after it became a useful tool of those in power.

Islam, on the other hand, did expand by the sword.

[Chizzang]

Everyone has the right to throw stones...
and every religion has nuts - nobody would (or could) argue that point, it's meaningless it's so common

What we're talking about is a RELIGIOUS REFORMATION
Where leaders of the faith stand up and announce reform - almost literally bang a thesis on the front door
(As Martin Luther did)

Judaism / Christianity / Hindi have all had SIGNIFICANT reformation movements
Where huge swaths of the collective moved against the fundamentalists

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

I won't paint the entire religion of Islam as violent. Most Muslims that I know are very hospitable people who are hard working. To me, this is the true face of Islam, not a fvcking nut cutting off heads on Youtube.

I'm pretty sure you're not actually reading my posts

You won;t paint a religion blah blah...Then don't...
But don't paint it as peaceful either just because you know a Muslim family
I know a black guy too (it's an old trick MrKlean)

Lets move past that horse sh!t and get down to the actual facts - not "feelings"
Islam has a doctrine problem - a very serious doctrine problem
and they are making it the entire worlds problem
The book (Koran) is pretty straight forward

It's time for Islamic leaders to stand up around the world and REFORM (period)
and the rest of the world is allowed to ask for this LOUDLY

[mrklean]

Christians have matured but it took a long time and hardships. 50 years ago, the KKK was considered a Christian organization. So-called Christians used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. No one has the right to throw any stones at anyone.

My take on Christianity is a little different. It actually started out as a very peaceful religion hiding from Roman persecution. It grew in spite of that persecution. Then the Romans co-opted it and the Christian religion then spent the next 1600 years or so being part or all of the government and the ruling class. So yes, Christians support bad things but after it became a useful tool of those in power.

Islam, on the other hand, did expand by the sword.

So did Christianity. Look at what they did in Africa, Asia and South America.

[Skjellyfetti]

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

There are. See: Gulen.

Before him you had Ataturk. Secularist, democrat, abolition of the sultanate and caliphate, women's rights, etc.

You had Nasser in Egypt and Pahlavi in Iran.

[Chizzang]

It takes true selfless leaders to do this and committed selfless followers
Right now Islam has no leaders who will of any significance stand up and create a movement

There are. See: Gulen.

Before him you had Ataturk. Secularist, democrat, abolition of the sultanate and caliphate, women's rights, etc.

You had Nasser in Egypt and Pahlavi in Iran.

Yeesh...
Yes Ataturk died 75 years ago and was famous for saying "I have no religion"



Besides that awful example:
We're going to need some "overlap" for there to be a movement of any significance

[Skjellyfetti]

What's your problem with Gulen, then?

[OL FU]

My take on Christianity is a little different. It actually started out as a very peaceful religion hiding from Roman persecution. It grew in spite of that persecution. Then the Romans co-opted it and the Christian religion then spent the next 1600 years or so being part or all of the government and the ruling class. So yes, Christians support bad things but after it became a useful tool of those in power.

Islam, on the other hand, did expand by the sword.

So did Christianity. Look at what they did in Africa, Asia and South America.

You missed the point. The point was for the first three hundred years that isn't the way Christianity grew. It grew quietly. IT wasn't until Christianity became part of the power structure did it grow by force. Now that doesn't eliminate the problem but it unlike Islam, it didn't grow by force right from the start.

[Chizzang]

What's your problem with Gulen, then?

The guy that moved to the U.S. in the 90's
Hows that going to work..?

[kalm]

What's your problem with Gulen, then?

The guy that moved to the U.S. in the 90's
Hows that going to work..?

Ties to the CIA and he's founded 100's of Muslim based charter schools across America.

Seems right up your ally!

[Skjellyfetti]

What's your problem with Gulen, then?

The guy that moved to the U.S. in the 90's
Hows that going to work..?

And Luther had to go into exile as well.

I thought you wanted a Luther analogue? Exile shouldn't be disqualifying.