Climate Denier Turns

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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

cx500d wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Sure they are; we pay for their protection
Then I guess we are all subsidized; by our own taxes... Unless you had operations in Venezuela say, that got expropriated by the government.


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Definition of subsidize
subsidized; subsidizing
transitive verb
: to furnish with a subsidy: such as
a : to purchase the assistance of by payment of a subsidy
b : to aid or promote (someone or something, such as a private enterprise) with public money subsidize soybean farmers subsidize public transportation
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote:
Baldy wrote: :?

subsidy - n - a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

I'm not sure how you indirectly give money to an entity. :suspicious:
Indirect subsidies (for better or worse): military spending to protect and manipulate oil production. Environmental clean-up.

(I like it when you play dumb :lol: )
Um No.
OPEC is the #1 manipulator of oil production and prices. It isn't even close.
So-called "indirect subsidies" are tax breaks ALL corporations receive. Oil companies don't receive any more or less than Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by BDKJMU »

houndawg wrote:
BDKJMU wrote: Those aren't subsidies.
Sure they are; we pay for their protection
Its obvious you weren't paying attention when someone earlier on this thread posted the definition of a subsidy. Obviously reading comprehension isn't your fortay.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by houndawg »

BDKJMU wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Sure they are; we pay for their protection
Its obvious you weren't paying attention when someone earlier on this thread posted the definition of a subsidy. Obviously reading comprehension isn't your fortay.
:rofl:

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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by OL FU »

There is a good editorial on the problem with climate change advocacy groups. Not sure it pertains here but..
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/opin ... .html?_r=0

"Well, not entirely. As Andrew Revkin wrote last year about his storied career as an environmental reporter at The Times, “I saw a widening gap between what scientists had been learning about global warming and what advocates were claiming as they pushed ever harder to pass climate legislation.” The science was generally scrupulous. The boosters who claimed its authority weren’t.

Anyone who has read the 2014 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change knows that, while the modest (0.85 degrees Celsius, or about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit) warming of the Northern Hemisphere since 1880 is indisputable, as is the human influence on that warming, much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities. That’s especially true of the sophisticated but fallible models and simulations by which scientists attempt to peer into the climate future. To say this isn’t to deny science. It’s to acknowledge it honestly.

By now I can almost hear the heads exploding. They shouldn’t, because there’s another lesson here — this one for anyone who wants to advance the cause of good climate policy. As Revkin wisely noted, hyperbole about climate “not only didn’t fit the science at the time but could even be counterproductive if the hope was to engage a distracted public.”

It's been my opinion all along that increased carbon warms the temperature and man certainly impacts it. I would be much more inclined to agree with the Al Gore's of the world if they (1) didn't predict the end of the world every 5 years (2) attempt to downsize the lifestyles of the world while living in 10,000 square foot houses, (3) make shit loads of money working on their cause and (4) insist on the absolute accuracy of their predictive models that have to be changed every 2 years.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
Indirect subsidies (for better or worse): military spending to protect and manipulate oil production. Environmental clean-up.

(I like it when you play dumb :lol: )
Um No.
OPEC is the #1 manipulator of oil production and prices. It isn't even close.
So-called "indirect subsidies" are tax breaks ALL corporations receive. Oil companies don't receive any more or less than Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft.
* "military spending to..."

I didn't say anything about taxation.

Some of our military spending (again for better or for worse) supports oil companies. It has for a very long time. That's an indirect subsidy.

government provides indirect subsidies in a variety of ways to a variety of industries. Another example would be Medicare Part D where the government won't negotiate down the price of drugs it pays for. The government isnt making a direct payment to Pharma but its policies still support the industry. Or fuel efficiency standards that indirectly (no direct payment) support the electric car industry through the purchase of more hybrids.

For better or for worse is the honest economic debate here, not whether or not indirect subsidies exist. They do.
Last edited by kalm on Mon May 01, 2017 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

OL FU wrote:There is a good editorial on the problem with climate change advocacy groups. Not sure it pertains here but..
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/opin ... .html?_r=0

"Well, not entirely. As Andrew Revkin wrote last year about his storied career as an environmental reporter at The Times, “I saw a widening gap between what scientists had been learning about global warming and what advocates were claiming as they pushed ever harder to pass climate legislation.” The science was generally scrupulous. The boosters who claimed its authority weren’t.

Anyone who has read the 2014 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change knows that, while the modest (0.85 degrees Celsius, or about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit) warming of the Northern Hemisphere since 1880 is indisputable, as is the human influence on that warming, much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities. That’s especially true of the sophisticated but fallible models and simulations by which scientists attempt to peer into the climate future. To say this isn’t to deny science. It’s to acknowledge it honestly.

By now I can almost hear the heads exploding. They shouldn’t, because there’s another lesson here — this one for anyone who wants to advance the cause of good climate policy. As Revkin wisely noted, hyperbole about climate “not only didn’t fit the science at the time but could even be counterproductive if the hope was to engage a distracted public.”

It's been my opinion all along that increased carbon warms the temperature and man certainly impacts it. I would be much more inclined to agree with the Al Gore's of the world if they (1) didn't predict the end of the world every 5 years (2) attempt to downsize the lifestyles of the world while living in 10,000 square foot houses, (3) make shit loads of money working on their cause and (4) insist on the absolute accuracy of their predictive models that have to be changed every 2 years.
Of course that's the case...aided and abetted by fake news from the left.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Its bizarre that The Atlantic ignores one of the biggest and most credible criticisms of the hockey stick model - or maybe it isn't bizarre at all

(I'll let you research that one too)

The follow ups to Mann's research works with the same original assumptions: that all of the earth's natural carbon sinks are saturated, and now every bit of carbon gas we emit is being added to the atmospheric total

Eventually, the earth's ability to absorb carbon gas (like the oceans) will reach a peak, and then Mann's theory will get a real test. And mind you- I'm not saying we aren't seeing a rise in temps - I'm saying that Mann's model suggests a runaway greenhouse effect, and there is little evidence to support that theory, because it physically cannot happen at this stage. Our oceans will literally have to become poisonous before that (and they ARE changing)

but to my original point-

none of it matters




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Nah. It's your turn to back up your assertions. What you got?
My assertions are based on pro-AGW research- gasp- you can look it up.

The University of Colorado at Boulder is one place you can start. They published a study recently about the earth's carbon sinks and their increasing intake.

This is pro-AGW research that runs counter to Mann's timeline. My point being that there is a lot of hysteria that may be unfounded, because we may never get to the point that Mann's model becomes a concern- we might well all be dead by then, due to other effects and forces (including conflicts brought on by population stresses). In fact, because scientists know so little about the earth's capacity to absorb carbon, we have no idea when Mann's model could even be observed in real life. It could be 10 years from now, or 10000.

One thing is for sure.... if you take the earth's population down to about 5 billion, and in conjunction with that you move to clean energy production, we won't have a problem (other than the sun). Doing just one of those two things without doing the other won't cut it.

I won't spoon feed you more than that. You can start with UCB and take a look.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Nah. It's your turn to back up your assertions. What you got?
My assertions are based on pro-AGW research- gasp- you can look it up.

The University of Colorado at Boulder is one place you can start. They published a study recently about the earth's carbon sinks and their increasing intake.

This is pro-AGW research that runs counter to Mann's timeline. My point being that there is a lot of hysteria that may be unfounded, because we may never get to the point that Mann's model becomes a concern- we might well all be dead by then, due to other effects and forces (including conflicts brought on by population stresses). In fact, because scientists know so little about the earth's capacity to absorb carbon, we have no idea when Mann's model could even be observed in real life. It could be 10 years from now, or 10000.

One thing is for sure.... if you take the earth's population down to about 5 billion, and in conjunction with that you move to clean energy production, we won't have a problem (other than the sun). Doing just one of those two things without doing the other won't cut it.

I won't spoon feed you more than that. You can start with UCB and take a look.
Well I skimmed an article on tropical forests and their ability to take up carbon and I like good climate news but I thought the Hockey Stick was a reconstruction of what happened rather than a predictive model? At least that was the disputed part?
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by Gil Dobie »

Algore assured that man's affect on climate would never get it's proper due, by making it political for his personal gain. Just about anything these politicians latch on to turns into a crap storm.
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Climate Denier Turns

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
My assertions are based on pro-AGW research- gasp- you can look it up.

The University of Colorado at Boulder is one place you can start. They published a study recently about the earth's carbon sinks and their increasing intake.

This is pro-AGW research that runs counter to Mann's timeline. My point being that there is a lot of hysteria that may be unfounded, because we may never get to the point that Mann's model becomes a concern- we might well all be dead by then, due to other effects and forces (including conflicts brought on by population stresses). In fact, because scientists know so little about the earth's capacity to absorb carbon, we have no idea when Mann's model could even be observed in real life. It could be 10 years from now, or 10000.

One thing is for sure.... if you take the earth's population down to about 5 billion, and in conjunction with that you move to clean energy production, we won't have a problem (other than the sun). Doing just one of those two things without doing the other won't cut it.

I won't spoon feed you more than that. You can start with UCB and take a look.
Well I skimmed an article on tropical forests and their ability to take up carbon and I like good climate news but I thought the Hockey Stick was a reconstruction of what happened rather than a predictive model? At least that was the disputed part?
If you're going to debate the hockey stick you might want to research it a little more

But depending on how you draw your x and y axes... yeah- we're riding that hockey stick!

BTW trees as a carbon sink isnt all that great- the Aussies have a good study on trees ability to absorb carbon being affected by soil quality and the presence of phosphorus


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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Well I skimmed an article on tropical forests and their ability to take up carbon and I like good climate news but I thought the Hockey Stick was a reconstruction of what happened rather than a predictive model? At least that was the disputed part?
If you're going to debate the hockey stick you might want to research it a little more

But depending on how you draw your x and y axes... yeah- we're riding that hockey stick!

BTW trees as a carbon sink isnt all that great- the Aussies have a good study on trees ability to absorb carbon being affected by soil quality and the presence of phosphorus


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I wasn't "debating the hockey stick" I was debating whether it disproven and whether Climategate was cooking the books.

Neither of which are apparently true except for consumers of fake climate news or those too lazy to look at the results of a shit ton of investigations by multiple agencies into both after the fact.
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
If you're going to debate the hockey stick you might want to research it a little more

But depending on how you draw your x and y axes... yeah- we're riding that hockey stick!

BTW trees as a carbon sink isnt all that great- the Aussies have a good study on trees ability to absorb carbon being affected by soil quality and the presence of phosphorus


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I wasn't "debating the hockey stick" I was debating whether it disproven and whether Climategate was cooking the books.

Neither of which are apparently true except for consumers of fake climate news or those too lazy to look at the results of a **** ton of investigations by multiple agencies into both after the fact.
Well I consume a lot of climate science from the sources and what I see has problems. I've mentioned one big one.

The hockey stick is an unproven and largely incomplete theory, which ignores most other environmental factors outside of atmospheric carbon levels.

It is like saying, "If I throw a match into the forest, it will burn down." without adding that there's a slight breeze and it rained yesterday. Conditions can be present that make the statement almost certainly true, but it needs work.

But once again, I'm more than willing to concede anything even the most hardcore AGW proponent wants to claim in return for realistic solutions that involve something that will kill us much sooner- population
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by Chizzang »

My favorite thing about climate change...
is telling people its too late to care about climate change

nothing good happens after you say that
regardless of where that other person stands on the issue

Hilarity ensues...



:lol:
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:My favorite thing about climate change...
is telling people its too late to care about climate change

nothing good happens after you say that
regardless of where that other person stands on the issue

Hilarity ensues...



:lol:
The fun hater response being, but clean air and conservation are still ok, right?
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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:My favorite thing about climate change...
is telling people its too late to care about climate change

nothing good happens after you say that
regardless of where that other person stands on the issue

Hilarity ensues...



:lol:
notice how theyre all stuck on arguing that it absolutely, positively is a thing

even with people who agree its a thing


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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:My favorite thing about climate change...
is telling people its too late to care about climate change

nothing good happens after you say that
regardless of where that other person stands on the issue

Hilarity ensues...



:lol:
notice how theyre all stuck on arguing that it absolutely, positively is a thing

even with people who agree its a thing
Agreed, they do
At which point I say "Still too late, doesn't matter"

and then...


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Re: Climate Denier Turns

Post by JohnStOnge »

OL FU wrote:T
Anyone who has read the 2014 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change knows that, while the modest (0.85 degrees Celsius, or about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit) warming of the Northern Hemisphere since 1880 is indisputable, as is the human influence on that warming,
I do believe that human activity has an influence on warming. However, though he latest IPCC report did not make the point as far as I can tell, the previous one did concede that unequivocal attribution of climate change to any particular cause is not possible without experiments that are not possible to conduct. The idea that human activity is causal...or the idea that ANYTHING in particular is causal...is indeed disputable.

I hate having to say that because, as I said, I do BELIEVE that human activity has an impact. But if you stick to the rules you have to say that you can't unequivocally say that human activity has had any particular causal impact.
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