Obama gets his thank you card from Wall Street with $400k check

[kalm]

Rhetoric notwithstanding, what about their actions?

Isn't that the author's critique? Obama was rhetorically a man of the people but in practice, his policies were Hamiltonian?

Which means that he was Jeffersonian. That's what Jeffersonian was - rhetorically being a man of the people, even denigrating Hamilton, while then at the same time embracing the systems that Hamilton created (e.g. the First National Bank - not the Second, that was a creation of Jefferson's political progeny).

I've read that Jefferson was conflicted about many things which is the sign of an open minded thinker. E.G. He really struggled with the concept of the LA Purchase in that he felt it outside the role of a limited government but the deal was just too good to be true.

In Stollers defense, he accused Obama of having a "Hamiltonian world view" which is sort of what your accusing Jefferson of as well.

[GannonFan]

Which means that he was Jeffersonian. That's what Jeffersonian was - rhetorically being a man of the people, even denigrating Hamilton, while then at the same time embracing the systems that Hamilton created (e.g. the First National Bank - not the Second, that was a creation of Jefferson's political progeny).

I've read that Jefferson was conflicted about many things which is the sign of an open minded thinker. E.G. He really struggled with the concept of the LA Purchase in that he felt it outside the role of a limited government but the deal was just too good to be true.

In Stollers defense, he accused Obama of having a "Hamiltonian world view" which is sort of what your accusing Jefferson of as well.

Jefferson was very adversarial to many things Hamilton had created when part of Washington's cabinet. Once Jefferson assumed office after beating Adams he saw the value in the things Hamilton had created and kept them in place. He still vilified Hamilton, even after death, but had no problem keeping what his adversary had wrought. You say open minded, I say he was political through and through. He was the original Jeffersonian. And yes, Jefferson certainly had a Hamiltonian world view - that's what Jackson fought against in the original Democratic-Republican party (then embodied by John Quincy Adams) - a spirit of entitled, ensconced, power brokers in Washington DC - from Jefferson, through Madison and Monroe and the finally Quincy Adams. That's what made Jackson the creator of a new Democratic party, it's because he broke power structure that Jefferson created.

[CID1990]

There are common strands with both.

You can't make a historical comparison without gannon jumping on you over any differences (though, he's happy to make his own imperfect historical analogies)

Feel free to point out the imperfections, I'll be glad to discuss them with you. I don't see any problem with pursuing historical accuracy - what do you have against historical accuracy??

Graphs.

You are invalid without them.

[Skjellyfetti]

Feel free to point out the imperfections, I'll be glad to discuss them with you. I don't see any problem with pursuing historical accuracy - what do you have against historical accuracy??

Flaws with the comparison between Trump and Jefferson?

How about agrarianism, railing against entrenched aristocracy, and against merchants and industry?

Does that sound like Trump?

How about Jefferson's intellectual and scientific pursuits? Biologist, geologist, meteorologist, archaeologist, palaeontologist, philosopher, etc.

Does that sound like Trump?


Again, I'm not saying there aren't common threads with Jefferson and Trump. Massive debt and abounding hypocrisy, for example ( ). But, you always shit all over any historical comparison someone makes if there is any differentiation at all.... while also loving to make historical comparisons yourself that also have holes.

[∞∞∞]

Flaws with the comparison between Trump and Jefferson?

How about agrarianism, railing against entrenched aristocracy, and against merchants and industry?

Does that sound like Trump?

Although agrarian, Jefferson actually had a fairly open mind about industry. The first US coin minted, designed by Jefferson (and Washington), literally had the motto: "Liberty, Parent of Science & Industry."



On a side note, imagine the shit-show today if we ever tried replacing "In God We Trust" on our currency with the motto above. It's a small reminder of how radical and ahead of the times the founding fathers were.

[Skjellyfetti]

Eh. I honestly don't know much about that coin. I don't see much to say that Jefferson added those words, seems his input was primarily on the content of the alloy. But, I don't know.

Jefferson wasn't fond of industry and preferred an agrarian economy (for the country and Virginia especially). He thought industry creates dependence and farming creates self sufficiency. Not that Trumpian and he wrote far more on this than a handful of words on a coin (if he was responsible for the addition of the motto).

[∞∞∞]

Eh. I honestly don't know much about that coin. I don't see much to say that Jefferson added those words, seems his input was primarily on the content of the alloy. But, I don't know.

Jefferson wasn't fond of industry and preferred an agrarian economy (for the country and Virginia especially). He thought industry creates dependence and farming creates self sufficiency. Not that Trumpian and he wrote far more on this than a handful of words on a coin (if he was responsible for the addition of the motto).

I went off-point; I think we can agree that Trump is nothing like Jefferson.

[CID1990]

All these Jeffersonians/Jacksonians/Hamiltonians...

here I am waiting for a Coolidgeian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kalm]

I've read that Jefferson was conflicted about many things which is the sign of an open minded thinker. E.G. He really struggled with the concept of the LA Purchase in that he felt it outside the role of a limited government but the deal was just too good to be true.

In Stollers defense, he accused Obama of having a "Hamiltonian world view" which is sort of what your accusing Jefferson of as well.

Jefferson was very adversarial to many things Hamilton had created when part of Washington's cabinet. Once Jefferson assumed office after beating Adams he saw the value in the things Hamilton had created and kept them in place. He still vilified Hamilton, even after death, but had no problem keeping what his adversary had wrought. You say open minded, I say he was political through and through. He was the original Jeffersonian. And yes, Jefferson certainly had a Hamiltonian world view - that's what Jackson fought against in the original Democratic-Republican party (then embodied by John Quincy Adams) - a spirit of entitled, ensconced, power brokers in Washington DC - from Jefferson, through Madison and Monroe and the finally Quincy Adams. That's what made Jackson the creator of a new Democratic party, it's because he broke power structure that Jefferson created.

Ok.

So equating Obama's policies to a "Hamiltonian world view" is not really that "bunk" then?

[GannonFan]

Jefferson was very adversarial to many things Hamilton had created when part of Washington's cabinet. Once Jefferson assumed office after beating Adams he saw the value in the things Hamilton had created and kept them in place. He still vilified Hamilton, even after death, but had no problem keeping what his adversary had wrought. You say open minded, I say he was political through and through. He was the original Jeffersonian. And yes, Jefferson certainly had a Hamiltonian world view - that's what Jackson fought against in the original Democratic-Republican party (then embodied by John Quincy Adams) - a spirit of entitled, ensconced, power brokers in Washington DC - from Jefferson, through Madison and Monroe and the finally Quincy Adams. That's what made Jackson the creator of a new Democratic party, it's because he broke power structure that Jefferson created.

Ok.

So equating Obama's policies to a "Hamiltonian world view" is not really that "bunk" then?

If you think Jeffersonian=Hamiltonian then sure, knock yourself out.

[GannonFan]

Feel free to point out the imperfections, I'll be glad to discuss them with you. I don't see any problem with pursuing historical accuracy - what do you have against historical accuracy??

Flaws with the comparison between Trump and Jefferson?

How about agrarianism, railing against entrenched aristocracy, and against merchants and industry?

Does that sound like Trump?

How about Jefferson's intellectual and scientific pursuits? Biologist, geologist, meteorologist, archaeologist, palaeontologist, philosopher, etc.

Does that sound like Trump?


Again, I'm not saying there aren't common threads with Jefferson and Trump. Massive debt and abounding hypocrisy, for example ( ). But, you always **** all over any historical comparison someone makes if there is any differentiation at all.... while also loving to make historical comparisons yourself that also have holes.

I really don't make a lot of historical comparisons because of precisely the reason you say - there are often too many holes in the comparison and really, it's a lazy way to interpret history and comment on contemporary issues/people. That's why I'm typically on the side of deconstructing other people's poor historical comparisons - people try to add authenticity to their current political stances by drumming up a historical comparison in the hopes that people don't really know enough about history to call them on it (and generally, that's a good assumption). If I do make historical comparisons (and sure, bring up the ones I have, I'd love to see them) I generally point out where the comparisons end or are no longer valid.

[kalm]

Ok.

So equating Obama's policies to a "Hamiltonian world view" is not really that "bunk" then?

If you think Jeffersonian=Hamiltonian then sure, knock yourself out.

Wasn't that what you were literally trying to do a few posts back?

Again...the author accused Obama of having a "Hamiltonian world view" despite his populist, every man rhetoric.

Obama sounded like Jefferson, but like Jefferson (as you point out), adopted Hamiltonian policies.

[Ivytalk]

Flaws with the comparison between Trump and Jefferson?

How about agrarianism, railing against entrenched aristocracy, and against merchants and industry?

Does that sound like Trump?

How about Jefferson's intellectual and scientific pursuits? Biologist, geologist, meteorologist, archaeologist, palaeontologist, philosopher, etc.

Does that sound like Trump?


Again, I'm not saying there aren't common threads with Jefferson and Trump. Massive debt and abounding hypocrisy, for example ( ). But, you always **** all over any historical comparison someone makes if there is any differentiation at all.... while also loving to make historical comparisons yourself that also have holes.

I really don't make a lot of historical comparisons because of precisely the reason you say - there are often too many holes in the comparison and really, it's a lazy way to interpret history and comment on contemporary issues/people. That's why I'm typically on the side of deconstructing other people's poor historical comparisons - people try to add authenticity to their current political stances by drumming up a historical comparison in the hopes that people don't really know enough about history to call them on it (and generally, that's a good assumption). If I do make historical comparisons (and sure, bring up the ones I have, I'd love to see them) I generally point out where the comparisons end or are no longer valid.

Yup. GF is that frustrated history perfesser who gives all his students Cs to show how smart he is.