Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

[GannonFan]

Steele wasn't foreign intelligence. He was ex-MI6 and running a private consulting firm.

Technically, Steele was and is still British, which would make him foreign. That's still a foreign agent, and would fit the same definition that some experts are saying that Trump Jr can be charged with relative to campaign finance laws (accepting something of "worth" from a foreign agent). As you indicated, the dossier supposedly changed hands and was passed around quite a bit. Probably plenty of targets, on both sides of the aisle, for Mueller to go after if we're going to define an act like that as a crime.

[Skjellyfetti]

Technically, Steele was and is still British, which would make him foreign. That's still a foreign agent, and would fit the same definition that some experts are saying that Trump Jr can be charged with relative to campaign finance laws (accepting something of "worth" from a foreign agent). As you indicated, the dossier supposedly changed hands and was passed around quite a bit. Probably plenty of targets, on both sides of the aisle, for Mueller to go after if we're going to define an act like that as a crime.

Trump Jr. and Kushner were senior members of the Trump campaign. Manafort was the chairman of Trump's campaign at the time of the meeting. He would be made campaign manager less than two weeks after.

If Steele was working with any campaign - in the Republican primary or Clinton's in the general - it should be pursued. Haven't seen any evidence of this. Assuming DOJ hasn't seen any evidence or there would be an investigation (undoubtedly if it was Clinton).

Do you think Rosenstein or Mueller are Democratic hacks? What about Richard Byrd?



edit to add: It's not just "accepting" - it's also "soliciting."

[kalm]

It's because no-one cares about anything anymore other than being on the right/winning side of the political divide

Nothing that actually happens matters anymore

Totally this.

The naysayers who are minimizing this right now sound like the Hillary supporters defending the corruption of the DNC last summer.

'Well technically it's ok to have financial dealings and fraternize with Russian banks and Cyprus while running for and being elected to office because collusion is tough to prove' We're still playing by the rules and the rules define ethics and doing the right thing for America!'

[CID1990]

It's because no-one cares about anything anymore other than being on the right/winning side of the political divide

Nothing that actually happens matters anymore

Totally this.

The naysayers who are minimizing this right now sound like the Hillary supporters defending the corruption of the DNC last summer.

'Well technically it's ok to have financial dealings and fraternize with Russian banks and Cyprus while running for and being elected to office because collusion is tough to prove' We're still playing by the rules and the rules define ethics and doing the right thing for America!'

Well while we're tangentially on the topic of moving goalposts, let's have a reminder of what the premise of this thread is:

Whether or not the Trump campaign conspired with the Russian government to throw the US election.

I won't ever argue that the Trump campaign wasn't sleazy -

Or are there not prominent people out there saying that laws were broken... even treason?


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[Skjellyfetti]

Well while we're tangentially on the topic of moving goalposts, let's have a reminder of what the premise of this thread is:

Whether or not the Trump campaign conspired with the Russian government to throw the US election.

That seems like what you want to make the thread about.

Obviously no one will ever be able to prove that any meddling had any effect on the outcome of the election. The intelligence agencies weren't able to make that determination in regards to Russia. Way smaller chance that could ever be proven regarding any coordination with the Trump campaign.

Why is that the standard now? Is there any federal statute that says it's unlawful only if it changes the outcome of an election?

Because, if that's what this thread is about, we might as well close this one up and start a new one - because no one is arguing that.

[CAA Flagship]

The question is:
What will have the greater elapsed time:
A) Trump "associates" jail time sentence(s),
or
B) combined Russian airtime by CNN and MSNBC,
or
C) number of Skelly posts in this thread multiplied by 2 days?

[Skjellyfetti]

B

[CAA Flagship]

B

I would guess that B is up to 6 months at this point in time and C is around 13 months right now.

[dbackjon]

You must only watch Fox News, Flaggy, where they deleted Russia from Usay's email

[CAA Flagship]

You must only watch Fox News, Flaggy, where they deleted Russia from Usay's email

I watch a little of everything, except the major networks. Too lazy to go to that end of the remote.

[CID1990]

Well while we're tangentially on the topic of moving goalposts, let's have a reminder of what the premise of this thread is:

Whether or not the Trump campaign conspired with the Russian government to throw the US election.

That seems like what you want to make the thread about.

Obviously no one will ever be able to prove that any meddling had any effect on the outcome of the election. The intelligence agencies weren't able to make that determination in regards to Russia. Way smaller chance that could ever be proven regarding any coordination with the Trump campaign.

Why is that the standard now? Is there any federal statute that says it's unlawful only if it changes the outcome of an election?

Because, if that's what this thread is about, we might as well close this one up and start a new one - because no one is arguing that.

Thank you for solidifying my point, Mr. I Really Don't Care I'm Just Making Observations"

Or, put another way.... If that's all this thread is about then what is Mueller investigating?

It took (how many?) pages to get you to come clean, Junior


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[Skjellyfetti]

If that's all this thread is about then what is Mueller investigating?

Mueller is investigating any links and/or coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia. And, any other crimes that are uncovered during the result of the investigation.

It took (how many?) pages to get you to come clean, Junior

Come clean about what? I started the thread after Flynn resigned. I said:
Feb. 14:

Thought Trump - Russia story probably deserved its own thread as the onion peel unravels.

The onion has been unraveling. At least in my opinion. I guess that may be a controversial opinion?

[JohnStOnge]

The biggest thought I had upon seeing this Trump Jr. thing involved remembering idiots on Facebook after the Republican Convention fawning about how they just KNEW Trump must be great because of his CHILDREN.

I thought at the time, "You idiots don't know his children at all. How the flip can you say that? They could be absolutely awful and because they looked good on TV you're saying that crap?"

Well, now we know that Trump Jr. had that e mail exchange well before he went on national TV and talked about how horrible the Clinton campaign was for daring to suggest that the Russians were involved in the election:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... c-election

It's VOX and we know that's liberal but in this case we also know it's true. The guy was flipping putting on one of the most dishonest performances we've ever seen when he did that.

Oh yeah. We could tell Trump was wonderful IN SPITE OF SEEING HE IMSELF LIE REPEATEDLY AT AN UNPRECEDENTED RATE because his CHILDREN are SO wonderful!

[kalm]

An honest conservative perspective on the issue...

https://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens ... D=ref_fark

[Ivytalk]

The biggest thought I had upon seeing this Trump Jr. thing involved remembering idiots on Facebook after the Republican Convention fawning about how they just KNEW Trump must be great because of his CHILDREN.

I thought at the time, "You idiots don't know his children at all. How the flip can you say that? They could be absolutely awful and because they looked good on TV you're saying that crap?"

Well, now we know that Trump Jr. had that e mail exchange well before he went on national TV and talked about how horrible the Clinton campaign was for daring to suggest that the Russians were involved in the election:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... c-election

It's VOX and we know that's liberal but in this case we also know it's true. The guy was flipping putting on one of the most dishonest performances we've ever seen when he did that.

Oh yeah. We could tell Trump was wonderful IN SPITE OF SEEING HE IMSELF LIE REPEATEDLY AT AN UNPRECEDENTED RATE because his CHILDREN are SO wonderful!

Great, John. Now, go after the Trump grandchildren.

[Skjellyfetti]

Trump-Russia investigators probe Jared Kushner-run digital operation

Investigators at the House and Senate Intelligence committees and the Justice Department are examining whether the Trump campaign’s digital operation – overseen by Jared Kushner – helped guide Russia’s sophisticated voter targeting and fake news attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Congressional and Justice Department investigators are focusing on whether Trump’s campaign pointed Russian cyber operatives to certain voting jurisdictions in key states – areas where Trump’s digital team and Republican operatives were spotting unexpected weakness in voter support for Hillary Clinton, according to several people familiar with the parallel inquiries.

Also under scrutiny is the question of whether Trump associates or campaign aides had any role in assisting the Russians in publicly releasing thousands of emails, hacked from the accounts of top Democrats, at turning points in the presidential race, mainly through the London-based transparency web site WikiLeaks.

Russia’s operation used computer commands knowns as “bots” to collect and dramatically heighten the reach of negative or fabricated news about Clinton, including a story in the final days of the campaign accusing her of running a pedophile ring at a Washington pizzeria.

One source familiar with Justice's criminal probe said investigators doubt Russian operatives controlling the so-called robotic cyber commands that fetched and distributed fake news stories could have independently "known where to specifically target … to which high-impact states and districts in those states."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation- ... 03619.html

[93henfan]

The biggest thought I had upon seeing this Trump Jr. thing involved remembering idiots on Facebook after the Republican Convention fawning about how they just KNEW Trump must be great because of his CHILDREN.

I thought at the time, "You idiots don't know his children at all. How the flip can you say that? They could be absolutely awful and because they looked good on TV you're saying that crap?"

Well, now we know that Trump Jr. had that e mail exchange well before he went on national TV and talked about how horrible the Clinton campaign was for daring to suggest that the Russians were involved in the election:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... c-election

It's VOX and we know that's liberal but in this case we also know it's true. The guy was flipping putting on one of the most dishonest performances we've ever seen when he did that.

Oh yeah. We could tell Trump was wonderful IN SPITE OF SEEING HE IMSELF LIE REPEATEDLY AT AN UNPRECEDENTED RATE because his CHILDREN are SO wonderful!

If anyone actually thought Trump was a good person, if they had paid attention to him at all since the early 80s, they were delusional.

He was still a far better choice than Hillary Clinton. We knew we were getting a dishonest person either way. One is just far more proficient and polished at lying. And she would have appointed a liberal to SCOTUS.

[kalm]

The publicist, Rob Goldstone, wrote that Aras Agalarov had met that day with Russia’s top law enforcement official, who “offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.”

Goldstone, a former tabloid journalist from Britain, mistakenly called the official “The Crown prosecutor of Russia,” but he appears to have been referring to the prosecutor general of Russia, Yuri Chaika.

As Julia Ioffe explains in The Atlantic, “Chaika is part of the bloc of siloviki — or people allied with security services, literally the people who settle disputes through force — inside the Kremlin,” and “Putin has willfully turned a blind eye as Chaika’s two adult sons have made a killing, accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars in business and choice government contracts.”

“This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump — helped along by Aras and Emin,” Goldstone added in his email.

Donald Jr. replied enthusiastically to the offer of help — “if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer” — and met six days later in Trump Tower with Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was described to him by Goldstone as a “Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this.” Veselnitskaya is also, as The New York Times reports and The Intercept has independently confirmed, a close associate of Yuri Chaika, whose role is equivalent to that of the U.S. Attorney General.

While Donald Jr. and Veselnitskaya now maintain that she provided no useful intelligence on Hillary Clinton at the meeting, the Agalarovs seem to have secured a place in American political history by brokering the meeting.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/11/rus ... e-dossier/

[Ivytalk]

Trump-Russia investigators probe Jared Kushner-run digital operation

Investigators at the House and Senate Intelligence committees and the Justice Department are examining whether the Trump campaign’s digital operation – overseen by Jared Kushner – helped guide Russia’s sophisticated voter targeting and fake news attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Congressional and Justice Department investigators are focusing on whether Trump’s campaign pointed Russian cyber operatives to certain voting jurisdictions in key states – areas where Trump’s digital team and Republican operatives were spotting unexpected weakness in voter support for Hillary Clinton, according to several people familiar with the parallel inquiries.

Also under scrutiny is the question of whether Trump associates or campaign aides had any role in assisting the Russians in publicly releasing thousands of emails, hacked from the accounts of top Democrats, at turning points in the presidential race, mainly through the London-based transparency web site WikiLeaks.

Russia’s operation used computer commands knowns as “bots” to collect and dramatically heighten the reach of negative or fabricated news about Clinton, including a story in the final days of the campaign accusing her of running a pedophile ring at a Washington pizzeria.

One source familiar with Justice's criminal probe said investigators doubt Russian operatives controlling the so-called robotic cyber commands that fetched and distributed fake news stories could have independently "known where to specifically target … to which high-impact states and districts in those states."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation- ... 03619.html

Meh. The Qatari connection is a bigger problem for young Kushner. The acorn never falls far from the tree. He'll be gone from that WH job by the end of the year.

[Skjellyfetti]

Yeah, he's got a lot on his plate.

And, the article is certainly Fake News since collusion was ruled out by Mueller over a month ago.

[Skjellyfetti]

Russian Officials Overheard Discussing Trump Associates Before Campaign Began

U.S. intelligence starting in the spring of 2015 detected conversations in which Russian government officials discussed meetings with Trump associates

U.S. intelligence agencies starting in the spring of 2015 detected conversations in which Russian government officials discussed associates of Donald Trump, several months before he declared his candidacy for president, according to current and former U.S. officials.

In some cases, the Russians in the overheard conversations talked about meetings held outside the U.S. involving Russian government officials and Trump business associates or advisers, these people said.

It isn’t clear which Trump associates or advisers the Russians were referring to, or whether they had any connection to his presidential aspirations.

The reports were gathered by intelligence agencies that routinely monitor Russian espionage against the U.S. Such efforts can include monitoring phone calls and emails as well as information from informants. The efforts weren’t aimed at Mr. Trump or his associates, these people said.

The U.S. intelligence agencies weren’t sure what to make of the vague and inconclusive information, given that Mr. Trump had done business in Russia and was a global celebrity well-known to prominent people there. The names of Americans do sometimes show up in conversations involving Russian officials that are overheard by U.S. intelligence.

Now, in light of the release of emails Tuesday by Donald Trump Jr., the president’s eldest son, investigators are going back to those early reports to see if they can understand them better.

Then, in the spring of 2016, U.S. intelligence officials’ suspicions about Russian meddling in the election grew after their counterparts in Europe warned that Russian money might be flowing into the presidential election, according to officials with knowledge of the warning. It remains unknown if or whether those funds were funneled to a particular campaign or to others to spend it on behalf of candidates.

In June 2016, officials at the Democratic National Committee revealed that their computer networks had been penetrated by hackers, whom the FBI and intelligence agencies later determined worked for the Russian intelligence services. Emails taken in those incursions subsequently were published by WikiLeaks, and in October, the site released emails that had been stolen from Mrs. Clinton’s campaign chairman, John Podesta.

At that point, intelligence officials had little doubt that the Russian government was attempting to interfere in the presidential elections. By the end of 2016, they concluded publicly that the Russian hacking campaign was meant to undermine Mrs. Clinton and help Mr. Trump.

Now, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and several congressional committees are probing Mr. Trump’s ties to Russia over the years, as is special counsel Robert Mueller.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-of ... 1499890354

[93henfan]

Wow. It's almost like Trump was an international businessman or something before he ran for President.

[CAA Flagship]

U.S. intelligence agencies starting in the spring of 2015 detected conversations in which Russian government officials discussed associates of Donald Trump, several months before he declared his candidacy for president, according to current and former U.S. officials.

Seriously, what's more alarming; an outside entity trying to hack a defensible system, or the constant leaking of information not meant for the public to hear yet?

[Jjoey52]

Where is the story about Hillary meeting with Ukrainian leaders over Trump campaign?


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[Skjellyfetti]

Seriously, what's more alarming; an outside entity trying to hack a defensible system, or the constant leaking of information not meant for the public to hear yet?

Well, I think scarier than either the hacking or the leaking is the normalization of this.

If it's ok or just unethical to coordinate opposition research with a foreign intelligence service - what's to prevent future elections from being decided by alliances?

In 2020 - the Five Eyes may not want Trump reelected. They feed the Democratic challenger opposition research. Russia wants Trump reelected - they feed his campaign opposition research.

This doesn't touch on coordination of microtargetting or campaign $$... which hasn't been established yet... and, if proven... would hopefully stay unarguably illegal.

But, after yesterday - it seems like "well, who wouldn't want kompromat on your opponent? It's not illegal..." is being pushed pretty hard.