Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

[Ivytalk]

Well, in their defense, in our current Red Scare every Russian either is or at some point has worked for some section of Russian intelligence or the KGB or something nefarious-sounding. All Russians are evil and are out to get us, and have been ever since Lenin, that's all we need to know.

I know you like throwing around Red Scare every chance, but it is our duty to take this seriously and at least investigate the matter. It's just weird that basically everyone close to Trump's campaign didn't disclose any Russian contacts, straight up lying to the media and Congress about not meeting with Russians, and changing their stories every time new facts emerge (or they contradict themselves).

From Flynn to Manafort to Sessions to Trump Jr. to Kushner (among others), it's simply odd. If these meetings were nothing to worry about, all they have to do is tell the truth. But they're the ones making themselves look suspicious by "forgetting" and lying about all the contacts they've had.

Hey, I hear they've released some important old documents about the 1953 "CIA overthrow" of Mossadegh. Why don't you read those and report back?

[Ivytalk]

Well, in their defense, in our current Red Scare every Russian either is or at some point has worked for some section of Russian intelligence or the KGB or something nefarious-sounding. All Russians are evil and are out to get us, and have been ever since Lenin, that's all we need to know.

So, is Mueller the new McCarthy?

Dunno. Who's Mueller's Roy Cohn?

[Chizzang]

Still not collusion.

The term "collusion" contemplates cognition, or some sort of basic understanding of the subject matter of the nefarious conspiracy.

Don Jr. is as dumb as a post.

Ergo, no collusion.

Session Kushner Flynn Manfort all FORGOT they had meetings with Russians

100% forget rate
This administration is very forgetful (Ergo: Not collusion)

[bandl]

The term "collusion" contemplates cognition, or some sort of basic understanding of the subject matter of the nefarious conspiracy.

Don Jr. is as dumb as a post.

Ergo, no collusion.

Session Kushner Flynn Manfort all FORGOT they had meetings with Russians

100% forget rate
This administration is very forgetful (Ergo: Not collusion)

Or they colluded to forget

[Skjellyfetti]

It was such a nothing meeting... He forget to mention that former KGB guy sitting there
(whatever, who cares)

Hurry, somebody say "But Hilary"

Well, in their defense, in our current Red Scare every Russian either is or at some point has worked for some section of Russian intelligence or the KGB or something nefarious-sounding. All Russians are evil and are out to get us, and have been ever since Lenin, that's all we need to know.

Back in April you posted:

It seems terribly long for anything to come out, assuming there's something to come out. If what you posted is correct, and they had a warrant to listen in to Page, that was back in the summer. We're almost 10 months out now from the "crime" and there was a Democratic control of the Executive branch for 6 of those months. Why hasn't there been any charges so far? It's not like you need to build a huge case here - if they have this guy or Flynn on record saying that they are working with a foreign power then it should be a slam dunk. Yet, they haven't dunked it yet, despite getting close to a year from when they should've had evidence that there was a crime.

This meeting really isn't setting off any red flags for you?

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

Not even same ballpark?

[GannonFan]

Well, in their defense, in our current Red Scare every Russian either is or at some point has worked for some section of Russian intelligence or the KGB or something nefarious-sounding. All Russians are evil and are out to get us, and have been ever since Lenin, that's all we need to know.

Back in April you posted:

It seems terribly long for anything to come out, assuming there's something to come out. If what you posted is correct, and they had a warrant to listen in to Page, that was back in the summer. We're almost 10 months out now from the "crime" and there was a Democratic control of the Executive branch for 6 of those months. Why hasn't there been any charges so far? It's not like you need to build a huge case here - if they have this guy or Flynn on record saying that they are working with a foreign power then it should be a slam dunk. Yet, they haven't dunked it yet, despite getting close to a year from when they should've had evidence that there was a crime.

This meeting really isn't setting off any red flags for you?

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

Not even same ballpark?

Like I said, if they were working with them, sure. But just having conversations, or as many on the left have got up in arms about, even just meeting them, is not enough for me. Heck, you and other Dems had Sessions tarred and feather and a rail ready to ride him out of town on simply for meeting with the Russian Ambassador (and of course he's not just an ambassador, we're told that he's the main KGB guy in the US tasked with recruiting new KGB agents. Because you know, Russians=evil). What was said, what was done, what was shared, what could only have come because of these meetings. That's what's important, not just that there were meetings.

[Skjellyfetti]

What was said, what was done, what was shared, what could only have come because of these meetings. That's what's important, not just that there were meetings.

I agree. But, I also think the information we have on this meeting is enough to, at the very least, raise some red flags.

We know that Veselnitskaya brought a plastic folder with printed-out documents that detailed what she claimed was illicit DNC money.

9 days later... DNC financials are dropped by Guccifer 2.0.

You're right that we don't know everything yet. Mueller has far more investigative power than journalists - he can subpoena phone, text, email records, and subject all these guys to hours to deposition.

But, this doesn't raise any red flags with you? It's just paranoid Russophobia? Really?

[Chizzang]

How many times do we get into terrible situations because we don't say: I Forgot

phpBB [video]

[kalm]

What was said, what was done, what was shared, what could only have come because of these meetings. That's what's important, not just that there were meetings.

I agree. But, I also think the information we have on this meeting is enough to, at the very least, raise some red flags.

We know that Veselnitskaya brought a plastic folder with printed-out documents that detailed what she claimed was illicit DNC money.

9 days later... DNC financials are dropped by Guccifer 2.0.

You're right that we don't know everything yet. Mueller has far more investigative power than journalists - he can subpoena phone, text, email records, and subject all these guys to hours to deposition.

But, this doesn't raise any red flags with you? It's just paranoid Russophobia? Really?

I'll bet ya Chuck Todd is all over this shit!

[∞∞∞]

I'm not saying it's collusion or treason...those are pretty big deals. But I do want to know why they have so many Russian connections and keep lying and forgetting about it all the damn time. My personal guess is shady financial connections rather than political deviance.

But I'll let Mueller handle the investigation. And it's certainly worth investigating.

[GannonFan]

I'm not saying it's collusion or treason...those are pretty big deals. But I do want to know why they have so many Russian connections and keep lying and forgetting about it all the damn time. My personal guess is shady financial connections rather than political deviance.

But I'll let Mueller handle the investigation though. And it's certainly worth investigating.

I meant to reply to you before, I certainly think the investigation is worthy. And yes, I think there's probably plenty of shady financial connections since apparently shady financials are how most of the world works. And I wouldn't discount shady political deviance since from everything we've seen, on both sides of the aisle, that's rampant too.

The part I object to is the paranoia and the hysteria that we have with all things Russia - I wasn't joking about the Russian ambassador thing, it is reported that not only is he the ambassador, but he's as high ranking KGB as you can get. And therefore if you speak to him then you're under suspicion. How's that not paranoia? And the other part I think is overblown is the extent that Russia actually impacted the election. Did they give the stuff to WikiLeaks? Most probably. Did they hack e-mails. Almost without a doubt. Were they behind that fake dossier that Comey saw and felt obliged to go public with where they were on the Clinton e-mail thing? Probably. Were they behind that juicy dossier on Trump? Probably.

But at the end of the day, the electorate had decades to get to know both of the flawed candidates in this past election, they had years to see how the Clinton's flaunted so many laws with their Clinton Foundation and the tie-ins when she was Sec of State, they had years as well as TV programs to see what a shady (and likely law-breaking) character and a buffoon Trump was, so what exactly did the Russians accomplish? I'd argue that their goal was less to disrupt the election - heck, we did that ourselves. The Russians didn't make the DNC rig the primary elections in an attempt to coronate Hillary and the Russians didn't make the RNC primary contest a reality show for Trump. Heck, Trump was the same buffoon this time that he was when he failed in earlier runs, this time it just struck a nerve with an electorate that was angry and ready to stick it to the status quo, which is unfortunately what the DNC decided to run. Rather, I think the Russians goal, if there was any goal, was to disrupt the government that came out of the election, Hillary or Trump, and to that they have to be rolling on the floor in peals of laughter - all they had to do was float some wild stories, make sure to fan the flame that every Russian is a KGB operative, and watch what happens. We'll still be investigating and talking about this until the 2020 election, and at the end of the day it still won't change the fact that in 2016 we had to two worst candidates to ever run for office at the same time.

Pogo had it right about who the enemy really is.

[Skjellyfetti]

It's not simply meeting with the Russian ambassador.

It's lying about it. Repeatedly. Lying about it on clearance forms under penalty of perjury. Updating your security clearances form after meetings are revealed. Leaving out MORE meetings with Russians and having to submit it a THIRD time.

Consciousness of guilt.

If they were straightforward from the beginning - "I met with Kislyak at (a), (b), and (c). We discussed legitimate issues and nothing improper"... it would look a lot less suspicious. They all lied about it. Repeatedly. Flynn lied about it to FBI fucking investigators.

Kushner met with Kislyak to arrange use of Russian communication tools to bypass USIC.

It's not simply "meeting with Russian" = guilt.

And, it's not about Russophobia. I'm married to a Russian citizen. Lived in Russia in 2015-2016. Currently have a Russian mother-in-law staying with us for the summer. If I ever would need to fill out an SF86 - my Russian connections would (probably) be much more extensive than these guys' (except Manafort). I love Russia and Russians. Not too keen on Putin and his government... but, Russophobe, I'm not.

[GannonFan]

It's not simply meeting with the Russian ambassador.

It's lying about it. Repeatedly. Lying about it on clearance forms under penalty of perjury. Updating your security clearances form after meetings are revealed. Leaving out MORE meetings with Russians and having to submit it a THIRD time.

Consciousness of guilt.

If they were straightforward from the beginning - "I met with Kislyak at (a), (b), and (c). We discussed legitimate issues and nothing improper"... it would look a lot less suspicious. They all lied about it. Repeatedly. Flynn lied about it to FBI **** investigators.

Kushner met with Kislyak to arrange use of Russian communication tools to bypass USIC.

It's not simply "meeting with Russian" = guilt.

And, it's not about Russophobia. I'm married to a Russian citizen. Lived in Russia in 2015-2016. Currently have a Russian mother-in-law staying with us for the summer. If I ever would need to fill out an SF86 - my Russian connections would (probably) be much more extensive than these guys' (except Manafort). I love Russia and Russians. Not too keen on Putin and his government... but, Russophobe, I'm not.

Does lying even matter in politics anymore? I mean, it matters to us here on this board (at least I assume it does), sure, but we've seen a gradual increase in just outright lies in American politics for the past 20 years, with Trump taking a yuge step forward in that regard. And all we (well, not me, I voted for the other Her) did was elect him President anyway. The electorate at large seems to be perfectly fine with the lying as long as it's their favored politician doing it.

As for the Russophobia, you're just one person. I'm sure you're not hysterical. But hysterias and Red Scares are never about just one individual, and it's hard not to admit at this point that there's a good amount of hysteria in the media and in the public at large when it comes to Russia. Remember, Russia=evil.

[Skjellyfetti]

Does lying even matter in politics anymore? I mean, it matters to us here on this board (at least I assume it does), sure, but we've seen a gradual increase in just outright lies in American politics for the past 20 years, with Trump taking a yuge step forward in that regard. And all we (well, not me, I voted for the other Her) did was elect him President anyway. The electorate at large seems to be perfectly fine with the lying as long as it's their favored politician doing it.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree there. Nothing really matters anymore. That's clear as day.

[Skjellyfetti]

Fox News confirming an 8th unidentified person at meeting.

Should we make wagers? Trump Sr.? Kislyak? Putin?

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... b4d63f3d57

[GannonFan]

Does lying even matter in politics anymore? I mean, it matters to us here on this board (at least I assume it does), sure, but we've seen a gradual increase in just outright lies in American politics for the past 20 years, with Trump taking a yuge step forward in that regard. And all we (well, not me, I voted for the other Her) did was elect him President anyway. The electorate at large seems to be perfectly fine with the lying as long as it's their favored politician doing it.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree there. Nothing really matters anymore. That's clear as day.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, I actually think it's awful, but it's the reality nonetheless.

[JohnStOnge]

Things do matter. It does matter that the conservative movement is in the process of destroying its credibility right now in order to maintain defending the indefensible thing that is Trump because he happens to have run as a "Republican." That's going to have impacts. I guess maybe if you're a liberal you might think that's a good thing. But I'm not a liberal and that's not what I think.

[kalm]

Fox News confirming an 8th unidentified person at meeting.

Should we make wagers? Trump Sr.? Kislyak? Putin?

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... b4d63f3d57

[CID1990]

I know. It sucks that Republicans are doing the same stuff that Democrats did the previous eight years.

But Hilary... oh wait I mean Obama

Good thing you'll not run for political office, Clirz.

Because if you did, your relationship with me would certainly be revealed


"He had a close relationship with an American in the intelligence community who had sympathies for Russia"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SDHornet]

the crumbling Russia narrative spin thread jelly is championing.

Is Mueller an idiot or will he stop hiring more prosecutors and close this thing up soon?

Not sure if he is an idiot, but hiring Clinton shill lawyers who donated to the DNC sure makes him look like one.





I agree with Cid regarding this. The collusion is a nothingburger and hard evidence would have been found by now. Trump will not be impeached for this. I also think there will be some dirt found on someone that causes them to go down one way or another, but in the end it won't be that big of a deal. But I will continue to enjoy the leftist hysteria over this and how deeply this triggers them. I am thoroughly entertained.

[GannonFan]

Things do matter. It does matter that the conservative movement is in the process of destroying its credibility right now in order to maintain defending the indefensible thing that is Trump because he happens to have run as a "Republican." That's going to have impacts. I guess maybe if you're a liberal you might think that's a good thing. But I'm not a liberal and that's not what I think.

The problem is the other side's credibility is no better, with the bald illegality of plenty of things the Clinton Foundation did. When you say you'll stop accepting foreign contributions once you win the election, it just begs the question of why you wait until then. That's why you see public opinion static right now - no matter the revelations nothing changes - people are fully polarized to one side or the other and are convinced that the other side was crooked. It's strangely one of the few things that each side has correct.

[houndawg]

I'm not saying it's collusion or treason...those are pretty big deals. But I do want to know why they have so many Russian connections and keep lying and forgetting about it all the damn time. My personal guess is shady financial connections rather than political deviance.

But I'll let Mueller handle the investigation. And it's certainly worth investigating.

The real issue is that POTUS is in deep to the Russian mob.

[CID1990]

I'm not saying it's collusion or treason...those are pretty big deals. But I do want to know why they have so many Russian connections and keep lying and forgetting about it all the damn time. My personal guess is shady financial connections rather than political deviance.

But I'll let Mueller handle the investigation. And it's certainly worth investigating.

The real issue is that POTUS is in deep to the Russian mob.

Dude

There is no way to have relationships with ANY Russians- business or otherwise- without being tied to the Russian mafia

You do business with Russians, you do business with the mob - the entire country is run on that business model

They are all OG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CAA Flagship]

Is Mueller an idiot or will he stop hiring more prosecutors and close this thing up soon?

Not sure if he is an idiot, but hiring Clinton shill lawyers who donated to the DNC sure makes him look like one.





I agree with Cid regarding this. The collusion is a nothingburger and hard evidence would have been found by now. Trump will not be impeached for this. I also think there will be some dirt found on someone that causes them to go down one way or another, but in the end it won't be that big of a deal. But I will continue to enjoy the leftist hysteria over this and how deeply this triggers them. I am thoroughly entertained.

I'm not ruling out anything here. I believe in the rule of law. There are things you can do and things you can't do. If you break the law, you need to pay a price. Whether that is Flynn, Trump Jr, Trump, etc., it does not matter.
What I won't do is get overly excited about bits and pieces of information. Telling me that a QB threw an interception and a running back gained 13 yards on a play tells me nothing about the outcome of the game. Wake me up when people doing the real investigation is ready to reveal their findings.

[kalm]

Not sure if he is an idiot, but hiring Clinton shill lawyers who donated to the DNC sure makes him look like one.





I agree with Cid regarding this. The collusion is a nothingburger and hard evidence would have been found by now. Trump will not be impeached for this. I also think there will be some dirt found on someone that causes them to go down one way or another, but in the end it won't be that big of a deal. But I will continue to enjoy the leftist hysteria over this and how deeply this triggers them. I am thoroughly entertained.

I'm not ruling out anything here. I believe in the rule of law. There are things you can do and things you can't do. If you break the law, you need to pay a price. Whether that is Flynn, Trump Jr, Trump, etc., it does not matter.
What I won't do is get overly excited about bits and pieces of information. Telling me that a QB threw an interception and a running back gained 13 yards on a play tells me nothing about the outcome of the game. Wake me up when people doing the real investigation is ready to reveal their findings.

* are

I'm mostly with you. I'm mostly in it for theatre.

Curious regarding CID's post... Does limited government include a far reaching, vast foreign policy where deals must be struck with mafiosos regarding finance, foreign and domestic development, and oil extraction half a world away? Seems tough to do without a very large government.