What Can Gun Control Compromise Look Like?

[AZGrizFan]

- Registry of gun sales going forward. A way to keep track of how guns are moving. It's not a full fledged registry - if you own a gun today and never buy another one you or those guns are not on the list. This is more to make sure that the first point is being followed.

Nonstarter for this gun owner.

[Gil Dobie]

Let's just put computer chips in all guns, then the government will know where all the guns are. It's going to happen eventually. It will also be able to detect guns near schools, churches, places where people gather, like bars etc. Have an alarm go off if a gun gets close to any large gatherings of people.

[GannonFan]

- Registry of gun sales going forward. A way to keep track of how guns are moving. It's not a full fledged registry - if you own a gun today and never buy another one you or those guns are not on the list. This is more to make sure that the first point is being followed.

Nonstarter for this gun owner.

I'm flexible on that one - the background check requirement (any sale/transfer) is my number one priority.

[GannonFan]

- Be clear about disqualifying events - if you have a domestic violence charge against you, you can be disqualified from having a gun. If you're a felon, you don't get a gun. If you've been dishonorably discharged from the military, you don't get a gun. You have a mental health condition that makes it reasonable for you not to have a gun, then you don't get a gun. And however the background system works, make it really easy to enter the information so we don't get another Texas church event because people didn't do their jobs.

Still can't agree with much of this. Any vengeful ex can file a domestic violence charge against you. And I guess once a felon, always a felon? Glad you're not on the parole board.

Well, on the felon thing, yes, as it pertains to owning a weapon, once a felon always a felon. It's not hard to avoid becoming a felon, it's not something that just happens to you. And all I'm talking about here is just the right to legally purchase a weapon. That's a pretty important right, you screw it up by committing a felony and it tells me you shouldn't have a weapon.

As for the domestic violence charge thing, it's a tough call. Can it be abused? Sure, but that's just a short time thing. Eventually you get your day in court and either you beat up your spouse or you didn't. But a lot of these cases aren't made up and a lot of "bad hombres" do beat the crap out of their significant others. That outweighs it for me. This isn't the death penalty where one mistake could lead to an innocent man dying for a crime he didn't commit. In this case, an innocent man could be barred from buying a weapon while the court proceedings are ongoing. Not the same level of worry with regards to fraudulent complaints.

[Ibanez]

Still can't agree with much of this. Any vengeful ex can file a domestic violence charge against you. And I guess once a felon, always a felon? Glad you're not on the parole board.

Well, on the felon thing, yes, as it pertains to owning a weapon, once a felon always a felon. It's not hard to avoid becoming a felon, it's not something that just happens to you. And all I'm talking about here is just the right to legally purchase a weapon. That's a pretty important right, you screw it up by committing a felony and it tells me you shouldn't have a weapon.

As for the domestic violence charge thing, it's a tough call. Can it be abused? Sure, but that's just a short time thing. Eventually you get your day in court and either you beat up your spouse or you didn't. But a lot of these cases aren't made up and a lot of "bad hombres" do beat the crap out of their significant others. That outweighs it for me. This isn't the death penalty where one mistake could lead to an innocent man dying for a crime he didn't commit. In this case, an innocent man could be barred from buying a weapon while the court proceedings are ongoing. Not the same level of worry with regards to fraudulent complaints.

Don't give our JCS that much credit. Plenty of innocent men are in prison b/c they wronged a woman or a woman went after them.

We have a family friend that was accused of sexual assault by his step daughter and ex wife (she wanted his 100+ acre farm). There was never any concrete evidence...it was all hearsay. He was convicted and is sitting in prison. The step daughter later recanted saying her mother made her make the accusation b/c she was going bankrupt and needed money. That was 5 years ago and Willie is still sitting in prison. The girl (who was 18 at the time) was never arrested for filing a false report or for her perjury or conspiracy.

[89Hen]

Still can't agree with much of this. Any vengeful ex can file a domestic violence charge against you. And I guess once a felon, always a felon? Glad you're not on the parole board.

Well, on the felon thing, yes, as it pertains to owning a weapon, once a felon always a felon. It's not hard to avoid becoming a felon, it's not something that just happens to you. And all I'm talking about here is just the right to legally purchase a weapon. That's a pretty important right, you screw it up by committing a felony and it tells me you shouldn't have a weapon.

Top 20 felony convictions:

(1) Drug abuse violations 1,841,182
(2) Driving while Intoxicated 1,427,494 (aka Felony DUI)
(3) Property crime 1,610,088 (includes burglary, larceny, theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.)
(4) Larceny-theft 1,172,762
(5) Assault 1,305,693
(6) Disorderly conduct 709,105
(7) Liquor laws 633,654
(8) Violent crime 597,447 (including murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault.
(9) Drunkenness 589,402
(10) Aggravated assault 433,945
(11) Burglary 303,853
(12) Vandalism 291,575
(13) Fraud 252,873
(14) Weapons violations (carrying or possession) 188,891
(15) Curfew and loitering 143,002
(16) Robbery 126,715
(17) Offenses against family and children 122,812
(18) Stolen property (buying, receiving, possession) 122,061
(19) Motor vehicle theft 118,231
(20) Forgery and counterfeiting 103,448

http://felonyguide.com/List-of-felony-crimes.php

[AZGrizFan]

Felony curfew and loitering??? WTF?

[Col Hogan]

- Registry of gun sales going forward. A way to keep track of how guns are moving. It's not a full fledged registry - if you own a gun today and never buy another one you or those guns are not on the list. This is more to make sure that the first point is being followed.

Nonstarter for this gun owner.

+1

[GannonFan]

Nonstarter for this gun owner.

+1

Already said I was flexible on that. Once that's out of the way what about the other stuff?

[AZGrizFan]

+1

Already said I was flexible on that. Once that's out of the way what about the other stuff?

Here's the problem. This latest shooting just shone the spotlight on it....we're depending on THE GOVERNMENT to maintain the databases and keep us all "safe"....A process that should have been a no-fucking-brainer for the Air Force got fucked up by some E-2 and now 26 people are dead because of it...so, really there's no set of laws, procedures, processes, etc., that are going to correct human error. There are enough laws on the books already...NONE of which have prevented the mass shootings that have occurred. Now, have they prevented OTHERS? Possibly, but I guess we dont' know what we don't know.

[GannonFan]

Well, on the felon thing, yes, as it pertains to owning a weapon, once a felon always a felon. It's not hard to avoid becoming a felon, it's not something that just happens to you. And all I'm talking about here is just the right to legally purchase a weapon. That's a pretty important right, you screw it up by committing a felony and it tells me you shouldn't have a weapon.

Top 20 felony convictions:

(1) Drug abuse violations 1,841,182
(2) Driving while Intoxicated 1,427,494 (aka Felony DUI)
(3) Property crime 1,610,088 (includes burglary, larceny, theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.)
(4) Larceny-theft 1,172,762
(5) Assault 1,305,693
(6) Disorderly conduct 709,105
(7) Liquor laws 633,654
(8) Violent crime 597,447 (including murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault.
(9) Drunkenness 589,402
(10) Aggravated assault 433,945
(11) Burglary 303,853
(12) Vandalism 291,575
(13) Fraud 252,873
(14) Weapons violations (carrying or possession) 188,891
(15) Curfew and loitering 143,002
(16) Robbery 126,715
(17) Offenses against family and children 122,812
(18) Stolen property (buying, receiving, possession) 122,061
(19) Motor vehicle theft 118,231
(20) Forgery and counterfeiting 103,448

http://felonyguide.com/List-of-felony-crimes.php

The only ones I would want to parse and think about would be the drug abuse violations (I'm willing to look at the treatment side of drug abuse as the alternative to the criminal justice approach to it) and of course, the aforementioned felony loitering. Other than that, if you rise to the level of a felony on the other stuff I'm fine with barring you from having a weapon. Remember, these are people 18 years old, or older. If you can't stop yourself from committing fraud or from stealing someone's car or beating the crap out of someone, then weapons probably aren't right for you.

[GannonFan]

Already said I was flexible on that. Once that's out of the way what about the other stuff?

Here's the problem. This latest shooting just shone the spotlight on it....we're depending on THE GOVERNMENT to maintain the databases and keep us all "safe"....A process that should have been a no-fucking-brainer for the Air Force got **** up by some E-2 and now 26 people are dead because of it...so, really there's no set of laws, procedures, processes, etc., that are going to correct human error. There are enough laws on the books already...NONE of which have prevented the mass shootings that have occurred. Now, have they prevented OTHERS? Possibly, but I guess we dont' know what we don't know.

I already said you aren't going to stop all the mass shootings, or even most of them. But that isn't the reason to not do anything. Heck, mass shootings are the tiniest sliver of gun related deaths in a year, so that's not even the target (bad use of words, mea culpa). We don't have background checks on every gun purchase/transfer done today (about 22% or so, apparently, are done, legally, with no background checks). What's the harm in fixing that loophole? Sure, systems will fail, people will screw up, but that doesn't mean we don't try to have the right system in place. What's the downside of having a background check on every gun purchase or transfer? Especially if we make the background check free of charge to perform?

[AZGrizFan]

Here's the problem. This latest shooting just shone the spotlight on it....we're depending on THE GOVERNMENT to maintain the databases and keep us all "safe"....A process that should have been a no-fucking-brainer for the Air Force got **** up by some E-2 and now 26 people are dead because of it...so, really there's no set of laws, procedures, processes, etc., that are going to correct human error. There are enough laws on the books already...NONE of which have prevented the mass shootings that have occurred. Now, have they prevented OTHERS? Possibly, but I guess we dont' know what we don't know.

I already said you aren't going to stop all the mass shootings, or even most of them. But that isn't the reason to not do anything. Heck, mass shootings are the tiniest sliver of gun related deaths in a year, so that's not even the target (bad use of words, mea culpa). We don't have background checks on every gun purchase/transfer done today (about 22% or so, apparently, are done, legally, with no background checks). What's the harm in fixing that loophole? Sure, systems will fail, people will screw up, but that doesn't mean we don't try to have the right system in place. What's the downside of having a background check on every gun purchase or transfer? Especially if we make the background check free of charge to perform?

So we're going to implement MORE restrictions, MORE invasion of privacy, more hurdles on honest, law-abiding citizens attempting to execute a constitutional right, to accomplish nothing?

Hell, no wonder the government is all for it.

Come up with a solution, within the confines of the 2nd amendment, that actually ACCOMPLISHES something, then we can talk.

[BDKJMU]

We'll, I'm still coming back to a few things I think we should do, and are already doing - it won't always prevent a mass shooting, sometimes nothing can stop that, but they make sense to me and they fit Constitutionally:

- Background checks on any purchase or transfer of a weapon, period. Doesn't matter how the gun is being obtained (sporting goods store, gun show, private sale, whatever). If you want to possess a gun, you have to pass a background check. Numb-nuts like the Air Force will still need to remember to file when a disqualifying event happens, but that's another point.

- Registry of gun sales going forward. A way to keep track of how guns are moving. It's not a full fledged registry - if you own a gun today and never buy another one you or those guns are not on the list. This is more to make sure that the first point is being followed.

- Be clear about disqualifying events - if you have a domestic violence charge against you, you can be disqualified from having a gun. If you're a felon, you don't get a gun. If you've been dishonorably discharged from the military, you don't get a gun. You have a mental health condition that makes it reasonable for you not to have a gun, then you don't get a gun. And however the background system works, make it really easy to enter the information so we don't get another Texas church event because people didn't do their jobs.

- Strengthen and extend penalties for people who use a gun in a crime who don't have a legal record of how they got the gun. Basically, if you skirted the laws and used an illegal gun to commit a crime you go away for a long time. Maybe a reduction if you finger the guy who sold it to you and he's successfully prosecuted.

Oh hell no. If someone is getting a gun from a family member they don’t need to do a background check. Or if I’m selling one of my guns to a buddy of mine, or vice versa, no need for a background check. I know the guy very well.

Oh hell fooking no. The govt has ZERO business knowing about what guns I own. Or will in the future..I will never register a gun with the govt...

[BDKJMU]

Nonstarter for this gun owner.

+1

+2..

[CID1990]

Maybe we have come to the point that most third world countries are at. Having armed guards at every public gathering. When I've been places like Jamaica, Mexico, Belize, etc, there have been armed policia at the popular public tourist area's. The tourist drivers usually tell you to stay within that area.

The ironic thing is that those countries don't respect the right to gun ownership and for the most part have stricter gun laws than the US


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[GannonFan]

I already said you aren't going to stop all the mass shootings, or even most of them. But that isn't the reason to not do anything. Heck, mass shootings are the tiniest sliver of gun related deaths in a year, so that's not even the target (bad use of words, mea culpa). We don't have background checks on every gun purchase/transfer done today (about 22% or so, apparently, are done, legally, with no background checks). What's the harm in fixing that loophole? Sure, systems will fail, people will screw up, but that doesn't mean we don't try to have the right system in place. What's the downside of having a background check on every gun purchase or transfer? Especially if we make the background check free of charge to perform?

So we're going to implement MORE restrictions, MORE invasion of privacy, more hurdles on honest, law-abiding citizens attempting to execute a constitutional right, to accomplish nothing?

Hell, no wonder the government is all for it.

Come up with a solution, within the confines of the 2nd amendment, that actually ACCOMPLISHES something, then we can talk.

Most law abiding citizens are already going through a background check today to own a weapon and that seems to be not terribly onerous. Heck, in most cases it just adds extra minutes to your checkout time at the counter. You're protesting quite a lot for something you probably have already done, with little or no inconvenience. What's wrong about closing the loop on the gun shows and private sales and have them do the same background checks?

As to accomplishing something, I'm absolutely sure that a person sometime somewhere who fails a background check, especially once we put them on 100% of gun sales and transfers, will stop there and will not obtain a weapon. And it will probably be more than one person. No law anywhere accomplishes something perfectly and without fail, but that doesn't mean we just wipe every law against everything off the books.

Oh, and there's nothing anti 2nd amendment about background checks to buy a gun - SCOTUS already said so.

[GannonFan]

We'll, I'm still coming back to a few things I think we should do, and are already doing - it won't always prevent a mass shooting, sometimes nothing can stop that, but they make sense to me and they fit Constitutionally:

- Background checks on any purchase or transfer of a weapon, period. Doesn't matter how the gun is being obtained (sporting goods store, gun show, private sale, whatever). If you want to possess a gun, you have to pass a background check. Numb-nuts like the Air Force will still need to remember to file when a disqualifying event happens, but that's another point.

- Registry of gun sales going forward. A way to keep track of how guns are moving. It's not a full fledged registry - if you own a gun today and never buy another one you or those guns are not on the list. This is more to make sure that the first point is being followed.

- Be clear about disqualifying events - if you have a domestic violence charge against you, you can be disqualified from having a gun. If you're a felon, you don't get a gun. If you've been dishonorably discharged from the military, you don't get a gun. You have a mental health condition that makes it reasonable for you not to have a gun, then you don't get a gun. And however the background system works, make it really easy to enter the information so we don't get another Texas church event because people didn't do their jobs.

- Strengthen and extend penalties for people who use a gun in a crime who don't have a legal record of how they got the gun. Basically, if you skirted the laws and used an illegal gun to commit a crime you go away for a long time. Maybe a reduction if you finger the guy who sold it to you and he's successfully prosecuted.

Oh hell no. If someone is getting a gun from a family member they don’t need to do a background check. Or if I’m selling one of my guns to a buddy of mine, or vice versa, no need for a background check. I know the guy very well.

Oh hell fooking no. The govt has ZERO business knowing about what guns I own. Or will in the future..I will never register a gun with the govt...

Sure, I already said we can do away with the registry of sales, try to keep up.

As for the lack of a background check, just because you know the person you're selling the gun to, sorry, I don't trust you. How many people did this whacko in Texas know who all thought he was a really strange dude? Doesn't mean he couldn't find one of them to sell him a gun if the Air Force hadn't screwed up anyway and forgot to bar him. And you have no way of knowing, no matter your relationship to the person, if they would fail a background check without actually performing the background check. Background checks aren't onerous, and you need them for plenty of things you do in life (almost any job, volunteering at school, volunteering for any youth sport, etc).

[GannonFan]

Maybe we have come to the point that most third world countries are at. Having armed guards at every public gathering. When I've been places like Jamaica, Mexico, Belize, etc, there have been armed policia at the popular public tourist area's. The tourist drivers usually tell you to stay within that area.

The ironic thing is that those countries don't respect the right to gun ownership and for the most part have stricter gun laws than the US


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But they also have quite the history of weak and ineffective governments. Laws matter little when the government behind them is impotent.

[Gil Dobie]

Sure, I already said we can do away with the registry of sales, try to keep up.

As for the lack of a background check, just because you know the person you're selling the gun to, sorry, I don't trust you. How many people did this whacko in Texas know who all thought he was a really strange dude? Doesn't mean he couldn't find one of them to sell him a gun if the Air Force hadn't screwed up anyway and forgot to bar him. And you have no way of knowing, no matter your relationship to the person, if they would fail a background check without actually performing the background check. Background checks aren't onerous, and you need them for plenty of things you do in life (almost any job, volunteering at school, volunteering for any youth sport, etc).

Could give every American an assigned level of a security clearance from top secret working for the government to youth sport level clearance. Kind of like a cast system or a credit score.

[89Hen]

The only ones I would want to parse and think about would be the drug abuse violations (I'm willing to look at the treatment side of drug abuse as the alternative to the criminal justice approach to it) and of course, the aforementioned felony loitering. Other than that, if you rise to the level of a felony on the other stuff I'm fine with barring you from having a weapon. Remember, these are people 18 years old, or older. If you can't stop yourself from committing fraud or from stealing someone's car or beating the crap out of someone, then weapons probably aren't right for you.

Not exactly sure what Drug abuse, Driving while Intoxicated, Disorderly conduct, Liquor laws, Drunkenness , Vandalism, Fraud, Curfew and loitering, Stolen property (buying, receiving, possession), Motor vehicle theft , or Forgery and counterfeiting have to do with forfeiting your 2nd Amendment rights.

[CID1990]

The ironic thing is that those countries don't respect the right to gun ownership and for the most part have stricter gun laws than the US


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But they also have quite the history of weak and ineffective governments. Laws matter little when the government behind them is impotent.

Given the number of gun laws and regulations we actually have on the books I'd say we are a case study in that

Or put another way - if we took every gun law and regulation off the books, it is arguable whether or not our gun crime rate would increase

[Col Hogan]

I've asked this before...I'll try again...

The thread is entitled What Can Gun Control Compromise Look Like?

A compromise is two sides giving up something to meet a common goal...no one has asked (or answered) what the anti-gun folks are willing to give to make a compromise work...

I know, I know...they don't want to give anything...

That's why I, for one, am digging in my heal...this death by a thousand paper cuts must end NOW!!!

[AZGrizFan]

So we're going to implement MORE restrictions, MORE invasion of privacy, more hurdles on honest, law-abiding citizens attempting to execute a constitutional right, to accomplish nothing?

Hell, no wonder the government is all for it.

Come up with a solution, within the confines of the 2nd amendment, that actually ACCOMPLISHES something, then we can talk.

Most law abiding citizens are already going through a background check today to own a weapon and that seems to be not terribly onerous. Heck, in most cases it just adds extra minutes to your checkout time at the counter. You're protesting quite a lot for something you probably have already done, with little or no inconvenience. What's wrong about closing the loop on the gun shows and private sales and have them do the same background checks?

As to accomplishing something, I'm absolutely sure that a person sometime somewhere who fails a background check, especially once we put them on 100% of gun sales and transfers, will stop there and will not obtain a weapon. And it will probably be more than one person. No law anywhere accomplishes something perfectly and without fail, but that doesn't mean we just wipe every law against everything off the books.

Oh, and there's nothing anti 2nd amendment about background checks to buy a gun - SCOTUS already said so.

Yes, I have. You are correct. And I will NEVER do it again. The government already knows about three of my guns. They won't know about any (theoretical) others. None of their fucking business.

[GannonFan]

I've asked this before...I'll try again...

The thread is entitled What Can Gun Control Compromise Look Like?

A compromise is two sides giving up something to meet a common goal...no one has asked (or answered) what the anti-gun folks are willing to give to make a compromise work...

I know, I know...they don't want to give anything...

That's why I, for one, am digging in my heal...this death by a thousand paper cuts must end NOW!!!

Stop it, you're being dramatic. The real lefties on gun control are like Michael Douglas in "The American President" - they think even handguns are a public danger and want no guns whatsoever. So I think it's a pretty big compromise to go from banning all guns everywhere to only asking for background checks on all gun purchases/transfers.