Сделаем Америку снова великой! Trump - Russia megathread

[Ibanez]

JSO-esque?

Ok, I should have said not in content, but a little bit in length..

Haha. Point taken.


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[Skjellyfetti]

For nearly five years, the young Russian political-science student was an unusual fixture at the most important events of the U.S. conservative movement.

Maria Butina, who was indicted this week on charges of being a covert Russian agent, struck up friendships with the influential leaders of the National Rifle Association and the Conservative Political Action Conference, touting her interest in U.S. affairs and efforts to promote gun rights in Vladi­mir Putin’s restrictive Russia. She sidled up to GOP presidential candidates, seeking first an encounter with Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and then, after his rising candidacy stumbled, with Donald Trump.

But by August 2016, when she moved to the U.S. on a student visa, the FBI was watching, according to U.S. officials familiar with the matter.

Rather than question or confront her, they said, officials decided to track her movements to determine whom she was meeting and what she was doing in the U.S. — the kind of monitoring that is not uncommon when foreign nationals are suspected of working on behalf of a foreign government.

By then, Butina had already publicly quizzed Trump about his views on Russia and briefly met his eldest son at an NRA convention. After the FBI began monitoring her, Butina attended a ball at Trump’s inauguration and tried to arrange a meeting between him and a senior Russian government official at last year’s annual National Prayer Breakfast.

By 2017, after she had enrolled as a graduate student at American University in Washington, Butina began probing groups on the left as well, trying unsuccessfully to interview a D.C.-based civil rights group about its cyber-vulnerabilities for what she said was a school project, according to a person familiar with her outreach.

On Sunday, alerted that she was preparing to leave Washington for South Dakota, where monitoring her would be more difficult, federal authorities arrested Butina.

The NRA gave Butina a springboard into the world of Republican politics. In March 2015, court documents show that she and Erickson exchanged emails about a special “diplomacy” project, aiming to use the organization to influence the Republican Party, which Butina predicted would win control of the White House.

At the group’s annual convention in Nashville that year, which featured a dozen presidential hopefuls, they mingled with headliners in a VIP green room, according to a person who was present.

In a social-media post, Butina wrote that she met Walker and was surprised when she was able to exchange a few words in Russian with the Wisconsin governor, who was preparing a bid for the presidency and leading in polls. A Walker spokesman said Tuesday that there were thousands of people at the convention and that “many of them approached the governor and asked to say hello and take a photo with him.”

But according to the FBI, she spoke frequently with a “high-level official in the Russian government” about her efforts to broker better ties between Russia and the U.S. The description matches Torshin, who was among 17 senior Russian government officials penalized by the U.S. government in April for playing a role in advancing Russia’s “malign activities.” In March 2016, she emailed an American contact that Putin’s administration had expressed approval for her and Torshin’s efforts to build a “communication channel” in the U.S., according to court filings.

“Maria Butina is currently in the USA. She writes me that D. Trump (an NRA member) is truly in favor of cooperation with Russia,” Torshin tweeted in Russian in February 2016.

The following month, she emailed an American contact that Torshin had received approval from Putin’s administration for their efforts, according to court filings.

On the night of Trump’s election victory, the filings say, she messaged Torshin, “I’m going to sleep. It’s 3 a.m. here. I am ready for further orders.”

Erickson lobbied for a role in Trump’s transition team and complained after the election when he ran into a problem with his security clearance, according to people familiar with the situation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... dc97413884

[css75]

It wasn't treason. But at some point all need to admit that this guy has no business being President and that people who voted for him screwed up.

Just once, can you post something besides the same anti Trump stuff?


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[Skjellyfetti]

I agree it's murky. Right now it has the same weight as the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

[CID1990]

I agree it's murky. Right now it has the same weight as the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Hey Jelly- the 1980s called and they'd appreciate having their foreign policy back



You and your fellow travelers on the left do not make good hawks. You're bad at it, you don't mean it, and the last Democrat who had the balls to reciprocate actual acts of war was Roosevelt.

Then again, maybe it is time to overrun Russia now that you donks are in full on war mode. Maybe Nancy or Crazy Auntie can propose a declaration in the House alongside their articles of impeachment.

If you don't want to have a war with Iran or North Korea over nukes, then STFU with the whining about Russian hacking -

(BTW - it IS an act of war, IMO... but I've been showing my own dick on that kind of thing for years - now let's see yours if you have one)

[css75]

Guess we need to tighten up our voting, no more online, must have IDs, and use paper ballots. Problem fixed. I know the libs want to clean this up, so I am sure they will be on board.


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[SDHornet]

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Hey Jelly- the 1980s called and they'd appreciate having their foreign policy back



You and your fellow travelers on the left do not make good hawks. You're bad at it, you don't mean it, and the last Democrat who had the balls to reciprocate actual acts of war was Roosevelt.

Then again, maybe it is time to overrun Russia now that you donks are in full on war mode. Maybe Nancy or Crazy Auntie can propose a declaration in the House alongside their articles of impeachment.

If you don't want to have a war with Iran or North Korea over nukes, then STFU with the whining about Russian hacking -

(BTW - it IS an act of war, IMO... but I've been showing my own dick on that kind of thing for years - now let's see yours if you have one)

There's that irony thing again...

...and if hacking was such a big deal, why is this not getting more run?

WASHINGTON — The Obama White House’s chief cyber official testified Wednesday that proposals he was developing to counter Russia’s attack on the U.S. presidential election were put on a “back burner” after he was ordered to “stand down” his efforts in the summer of 2016.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-cyber- ... 35758.html

It's almost like someone wanted the DNC to get hacked...

[Ibanez]

I agree it's murky. Right now it has the same weight as the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

[CID1990]

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

It’s an act of war if we decide it is.

They meddle in the election, we sink a couple submarines and maybe a cruiser or two. And splash some of those buzzy MiGs for good measure

[Ibanez]

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Hey Jelly- the 1980s called and they'd appreciate having their foreign policy back



You and your fellow travelers on the left do not make good hawks. You're bad at it, you don't mean it, and the last Democrat who had the balls to reciprocate actual acts of war was Roosevelt.

Then again, maybe it is time to overrun Russia now that you donks are in full on war mode. Maybe Nancy or Crazy Auntie can propose a declaration in the House alongside their articles of impeachment.

If you don't want to have a war with Iran or North Korea over nukes, then STFU with the whining about Russian hacking -

(BTW - it IS an act of war, IMO... but I've been showing my own dick on that kind of thing for years - now let's see yours if you have one)

I'd say an attack on our political institutions/activities, like an election, would constitute as an act of war. Unfortunately, Neither this administration nor the last one wants to deal with it. The Russians have no business undermining our Democratic processes. That's the purview of the DNC and RNC.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... f-war.html

Our military is pussy footing around.

[Ibanez]

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

It’s an act of war if we decide it is.

They meddle in the election, we sink a couple submarines and maybe a cruiser or two. And splash some of those buzzy MiGs for good measure

Of course it's an act of war if we decide it is. The problem is that we decide these things on a case by case basis and have no defining criteria.

I'd say the election process is critical infrastructure. An attack on that should be considered an act of war.

[Ibanez]

While it is important to define cyber-attacks that are used for espionage or disruption as they would be when committed by physical actors, the greatest challenge that countries have will be in identifying and proving that the malicious actors that caused the cyber-attack have direct links to governmental organizations – something that these groups will be even more keen to conceal going forward

https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/n ... ks-act-of/

[HI54UNI]

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

It’s an act of war if we decide it is.

They meddle in the election, we sink a couple submarines and maybe a cruiser or two. And splash some of those buzzy MiGs for good measure

Didn't we just kill 300+ Russians in Syria? But Trump is colluding with them!

[Skjellyfetti]

Didn't Trump give his generals the authority to make those decisions in the field?

Did Trump approve that response?

Objection! Relevance?

[Pwns]

Didn't Trump give his generals the authority to make those decisions in the field?

Did Trump approve that response?

Objection! Relevance?

So Trump approves giving the anti-tank rounds to Ukraine, kills the Russians in Syria, makes laughable claims about his inauguration crowd size, and is a sore loser about the popular vote even though he won...

What's the more likely explanation, here: He's Putin's bitch and/or a Russian plant or he just has an enormous ego that's going to deny anything that might even put a little bit of a cloud over his election?

[Skjellyfetti]

What's the more likely explanation, here: He's Putin's bitch and/or a Russian plant or he just has an enormous ego that's going to deny anything that might even put a little bit of a cloud over his election?

Por que no los dos?

We'll see.

[css75]

I remember when the Chines hacked OPM, millions of current and former federal employees info was taken. Obama did exactly nothing about it.


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[houndawg]

It's Treason.

Now Every American has to decide - do I support Treason, or do I support the USA. Can't do both.

I'm no fan of Trump but how was it treason? John Brennan has everyone in an uproar by using that word.

Ivy said it best - it was an embarrassment. Instead of listening to his own JD and intel community, he believes Putin. I'm not sure that amounts to treason. It's disconcerting, to say the least.

Treason is pretty well defined in Section 3 of Article III of the Constitution:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted."

Has Trump levied war against the USA? No. We aren't at war with Russia (nothing has been officially declared. There's no legitimate war in which Trump is siding with the enemy.)

Has he provided aid and comfort to the enemy? No. Again, there's no enemy. Russia is an adversary. But a declared enemy? They are not.

I'm a firm believer in using the right the word. Words have specific meanings and to just throw them around, especially the way the media and Trump do, it's reckless. Using the word, " treason" too loosely dilutes it, IMO. Trumps actions in Helsinki were a betrayal to the people. He has the worlds best intel community telling him who is at fault, and he fails to recognize it b/c he believes it sullies his election/administration. Republicans voted for an egomaniac, blowhard. His reaction shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

Btw, if you want to say he's committed treason, use the 2nd definition: a betrayal of trust
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/treason

I bet the CIA isn't making that fine distinction after he pissed all over their Wall of Honor

I don't think they're going to be happy with impeachment.

[BDKJMU]

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

A frat brother of mine worked for them for years out in San Diego. I guess there was/is a SPAWAR Pacific..

Ok, I know, cool story...

[houndawg]

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

It’s an act of war if we decide it is.

They meddle in the election, we sink a couple submarines and maybe a cruiser or two. And splash some of those buzzy MiGs for good measure

I'm swinging to the idea that why not have Congress declare war on Russia? We don't have to invade or even attack Russia. We'll just confine them to the Eurasian land mass and deny their Navy the use of the oceans. I agree with CID that maybe this is the time to remind them that they are still barely above a third world country. The reason that I'm feeling so cocky is from reading some outtakes of Mueller's Russian indictments. I don't know where we got the information we did but I bet there are assholes slamming shut all over Russian military cyberspace because it sure reads like we had eyes there in real time, right down to the name rank and serial numbers of the bots and the office number at the address of their workplace..

Maybe this is the time....

[houndawg]

Kinda.

Except, this involves a military attack on our country. That's lacking in the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty.

Hey Jelly- the 1980s called and they'd appreciate having their foreign policy back



You and your fellow travelers on the left do not make good hawks. You're bad at it, you don't mean it, and the last Democrat who had the balls to reciprocate actual acts of war was Roosevelt.

Then again, maybe it is time to overrun Russia now that you donks are in full on war mode. Maybe Nancy or Crazy Auntie can propose a declaration in the House alongside their articles of impeachment.

If you don't want to have a war with Iran or North Korea over nukes, then STFU with the whining about Russian hacking -

(BTW - it IS an act of war, IMO... but I've been showing my own dick on that kind of thing for years - now let's see yours if you have one)

Kennedy didn't need no steenking acts of war...

[houndawg]

What's the more likely explanation, here: He's Putin's bitch and/or a Russian plant or he just has an enormous ego that's going to deny anything that might even put a little bit of a cloud over his election?

Por que no los dos?

We'll see.

There isn't any doubt

[BDKJMU]

It’s an act of war if we decide it is.

They meddle in the election, we sink a couple submarines and maybe a cruiser or two. And splash some of those buzzy MiGs for good measure

Of course it's an act of war if we decide it is. The problem is that we decide these things on a case by case basis and have no defining criteria.

I'd say the election process is critical infrastructure. An attack on that should be considered an act of war.

There's no world wide definition or international convention that has defined it is there?

Under the standard defintion of an act of war its easy. Troops/tanks/planes from country A invade country B, or missiles from country A are shot at at/into country B. Simple- acts of war, game on.

But the whole cyber thing seems murky as hell. And would be easy to fake, or mistake, no?. Country A could accuse country B of conducting a cyber act of war when country B didn't have anything to do with it. Maybe it was a rogue group operating within country B, or a group operating in country C that wade it look like country B was responsible for cyber attacking country A.
Or country A could falsely blame country B for committing a cyber act of war, by having a cyber attack conducted on itself from within country B, as a pre text for country A attacking country B conventionally. Kind of like how Hitler staged a fake military attack on a German border installation from Poland as a pre text for invading Poland..

[Ibanez]

I remember when the Chines hacked OPM, millions of current and former federal employees info was taken. Obama did exactly nothing about it.


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I'm still dealing with issues from that. Thanks Obama. We didn't even get free credit screening, repair, etc...

When SC was hacked, that was the first thing the gov't said was going to happen.

[Ibanez]

That's why I said it's "murky". I see it differently, especially since I work in the cyber security realm. Cyber warfare is still relatively new. USCYBERCOM has been a, largely, offensive command since it's inception in 2009. We haven't well defined what type of attack constitutes an act of war. The EU has defined it. We're still lost in the dark. The nature of these attacks, the difficulty in confirming the attacker and their motivation, make it difficult to classify attacks as an act of war.

There are a range of attacks which can be extremely damaging, depending on the target. The Chinese attacking CNN over Tibet coverage isn't necessarily an act of war. If Russia were to hack our electrical grid and bring down an entire city - then I'd say that's an act of war. Russia hacking the DNC, trying to embarrass HRC and swing the election towards Trump doesn't seem like war to me. That's more espionage and statecraft than a military operation, in the traditional sense. I've said it for years, including on this site, what Russia is doing in the Ukraine is cyber warfare. They are using that country as a proving grounds.

Our military is behind the 8-ball on this. Hell, SPAWAR Atlantic didn't establish and open it's Cyber Warfare divisions until late 2017. The USN has 1 cyber forensics lab - that opened last October. It has 2 Red Team operations - the second also opened Oct 2017. And that's jut the Navy. Last I heard, the DoD had a suggestion to make Cyber Warfare it's own branch.

A frat brother of mine worked for them for years out in San Diego. I guess there was/is a SPAWAR Pacific..

Ok, I know, cool story...

SPAWAR Pacific isn't as laid back as SPAWAR Atlantic.