Sam Harris podcast: Beyond the Politics of Race

[Pwns]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

[Chizzang]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I love it...
Pwns is cherry picking Sam Harris now
after 13 years on these forums my job is almost done here

[kalm]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I’m only 20 minutes in. What else do they say the gap is due to?

[Pwns]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I love it...
Pwns is cherry picking Sam Harris now
after 13 years on these forums my job is almost done here

Well, I obviously don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he's a fundamentally fair and honest person and seems like he's more open to being convinced about things than the other 3 atheist "horsemen". And that's not just because he's not politically correct. Christopher Hitchens wasn't and Richard Dawkins isn't politically correct.

And honestly, I'd argue that crazy political climates expose your commonalities with people you didn't even realize you had in saner times. You might even say we're headed towards a politics where there's a bigger fissure between "deranged lunatics" and everyone than there is between left and right, no?

[UNI88]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I’m only 20 minutes in. What else do they say the gap is due to?

Theft by shady individuals with a single gonad.

[Chizzang]

I love it...
Pwns is cherry picking Sam Harris now
after 13 years on these forums my job is almost done here

Well, I obviously don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he's a fundamentally fair and honest person and seems like he's more open to being convinced about things than the other 3 atheist "horsemen". And that's not just because he's not politically correct. Christopher Hitchens wasn't and Richard Dawkins isn't politically correct.

And honestly, I'd argue that crazy political climates expose your commonalities with people you didn't even realize you had in saner times. You might even say we're headed towards a politics where there's a bigger fissure between "deranged lunatics" and everyone than there is between left and right, no?

Indeed,
Ideally the big debates between left and right should be more like trivialities than mind bending divides
but we're still a long way away from that discovery... because beliefs are taken so seriously
instead of taken simply as "a collection of ideas"

Even on this forum we argue about what is okay to argue about...
Mostly it's seen as bad form to criticize religion
I guess because somehow ancient literature is more important than logic and reason (even today 2018)

[kalm]

Well, I obviously don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he's a fundamentally fair and honest person and seems like he's more open to being convinced about things than the other 3 atheist "horsemen". And that's not just because he's not politically correct. Christopher Hitchens wasn't and Richard Dawkins isn't politically correct.

And honestly, I'd argue that crazy political climates expose your commonalities with people you didn't even realize you had in saner times. You might even say we're headed towards a politics where there's a bigger fissure between "deranged lunatics" and everyone than there is between left and right, no?

Indeed,
Ideally the big debates between left and right should be more like trivialities than mind bending divides
but we're still a long way away from that discovery... because beliefs are taken so seriously
instead of taken simply as "a collection of ideas"

Even on this forum we argue about what is okay to argue about...
Mostly it's seen as bad form to criticize religion
I guess because somehow ancient literature is more important than logic and reason (even today 2018)

Can we discuss how not all Muslims deserve bombings?

No? Ok.

What about how not all progressives/liberals are authoritarian commies.

[Chizzang]

Indeed,
Ideally the big debates between left and right should be more like trivialities than mind bending divides
but we're still a long way away from that discovery... because beliefs are taken so seriously
instead of taken simply as "a collection of ideas"

Even on this forum we argue about what is okay to argue about...
Mostly it's seen as bad form to criticize religion
I guess because somehow ancient literature is more important than logic and reason (even today 2018)

Can we discuss how not all Muslims deserve bombings?

No? Ok.

What about how not all progressives/liberals are authoritarian commies.

[kalm]

Can we discuss how not all Muslims deserve bombings?

No? Ok.

What about how not all progressives/liberals are authoritarian commies.

So we should bomb them all?

Thanks, Alpha!

[Chizzang]

So we should bomb them all?

Thanks, Alpha!

Why do you keep saying that..?

[SDHornet]

Well, I obviously don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he's a fundamentally fair and honest person and seems like he's more open to being convinced about things than the other 3 atheist "horsemen". And that's not just because he's not politically correct. Christopher Hitchens wasn't and Richard Dawkins isn't politically correct.

And honestly, I'd argue that crazy political climates expose your commonalities with people you didn't even realize you had in saner times. You might even say we're headed towards a politics where there's a bigger fissure between "deranged lunatics" and everyone than there is between left and right, no?

Indeed,
Ideally the big debates between left and right should be more like trivialities than mind bending divides
but we're still a long way away from that discovery... because beliefs are taken so seriously
instead of taken simply as "a collection of ideas"

Even on this forum we argue about what is okay to argue about...
Mostly it's seen as bad form to criticize religion
I guess because somehow ancient literature is more important than logic and reason (even today 2018)

There's been a lot of good long form discussions (debates?) on Youtube lately thanks to the "Intellectual Dark Web" (IDW). Sadly not much but the typical sound clips outside of that.

[Baldy]

Indeed,
Ideally the big debates between left and right should be more like trivialities than mind bending divides
but we're still a long way away from that discovery... because beliefs are taken so seriously
instead of taken simply as "a collection of ideas"

Even on this forum we argue about what is okay to argue about...
Mostly it's seen as bad form to criticize religion
I guess because somehow ancient literature is more important than logic and reason (even today 2018)

There's been a lot of good long form discussions (debates?) on Youtube lately thanks to the "Intellectual Dark Web" (IDW). Sadly not much but the typical sound clips outside of that.

The NYT's Bari Weiss was almost run off social media after she introduced the world to the IDW. As most know, Joe Rogan's podcast is one of the most popular out there and his viewership has huge spikes anytime he has IDW members on his show. People on the left demagogue the IDW and it's members...even members on the left like Bret and Eric Weinstein, Heather Heying, Sam Harris, etc, while most people on the right cant seem to get enough of it.

The fucking world has gone crazy...

[kalm]

There's been a lot of good long form discussions (debates?) on Youtube lately thanks to the "Intellectual Dark Web" (IDW). Sadly not much but the typical sound clips outside of that.

The NYT's Bari Weiss was almost run off social media after she introduced the world to the IDW. As most know, Joe Rogan's podcast is one of the most popular out there and his viewership has huge spikes anytime he has IDW members on his show. People on the left demagogue the IDW and it's members...even members on the left like Bret and Eric Weinstein, Heather Heying, Sam Harris, etc, while most people on the right cant seem to get enough of it.

The fucking world has gone crazy...

Not surprising that critics tend to push back against these folks with...wait for it...identity politics.


https://reason.com/blog/2018/05/03/what ... l-dark-web

[Chizzang]

Kalm.. you never answered my question
Why do you keep saying we should bomb all the Muslims..?

[SDHornet]

There's been a lot of good long form discussions (debates?) on Youtube lately thanks to the "Intellectual Dark Web" (IDW). Sadly not much but the typical sound clips outside of that.

The NYT's Bari Weiss was almost run off social media after she introduced the world to the IDW. As most know, Joe Rogan's podcast is one of the most popular out there and his viewership has huge spikes anytime he has IDW members on his show. People on the left demagogue the IDW and it's members...even members on the left like Bret and Eric Weinstein, Heather Heying, Sam Harris, etc, while most people on the right cant seem to get enough of it.

The fucking world has gone crazy...

The irony is that pretty much everyone in the IDW besides Shapiro is left leaning.

[kalm]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I love it...
Pwns is cherry picking Sam Harris now
after 13 years on these forums my job is almost done here

Chizzy, you’ll be happy to know I made it through an entire Harris podcast where he interviews Ian Bremmer.

Really interesting foreign policy global economics stuff.

[Chizzang]

Sam Harris is basically the last man standing...

The intelligent Right has gone into hiding because any criticism of the present administration lands you in hot water with the entire Fox News organization and frankly I don't blame them (I'd hide too)

most of them are just going to wait it out and write inane articles about Saudi Arabian and OPEC oil tactics
or other "Gee no kidding" type articles.

The intelligent Left has blown a gasket
and still can't seem to just drop identity politics...

Sam is the last guy that will talk about anything and everything as honestly as possible

[CID1990]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I’ve heard most of what Sam Harris has to say before so I previously didn’t look at your link, since although I agree with him on most points (and he is logical to a fault so why wouldn’t I), I generally don’t listen to or read things where I don’t think there are going to be revelations for me.

But then I did click on the link and I think the much more remarkable character is the Columbia student he talks to - Coleman Hughes.

I didn’t anything about him but holy cow- this kid has got some serious cojones. He’s honest too- and that’s a rare trait these days. He is likely going to be drowned out one way or another though - you can’t change human nature and the hard truth is that we don’t relinquish victim status once it is conferred on us. But he’s refreshing to read

[Winterborn]

Never heard of him before this thread but he is interesting to listen to.

[Chizzang]

Never heard of him before this thread but he is interesting to listen to.

Careful... Sam Harris is a huge catch 22
If you hold something sacred you'll probably not enjoy his entire catalog

Right and Left pundits used to enjoy cherry picking his stuff
10 years ago guys like Sean Hannity and Don Lemon loved to isolate a single Harris point
and then invite him on the show - Needless to say it rarely went well

Harris gets invited nowhere anymore

He defines himself as a Liberal
and yet he is a huge critic of Liberalism
He pretty much dismantles all the liberal sacred cows

Enjoy !

[AZGrizFan]

But then I did click on the link and I think the much more remarkable character is the Columbia student he talks to - Coleman Hughes.

I didn’t anything about him but holy cow- this kid has got some serious cojones. He’s honest too- and that’s a rare trait these days. He is likely going to be drowned out one way or another though - you can’t change human nature and the hard truth is that we don’t relinquish victim status once it is conferred on us. But he’s refreshing to read

https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black- ... ealth-gap/

Conspicuous by its absence in the progressive account of the racial wealth gap is any active role for blacks themselves. Reading Baradaran, Rothstein, and Coates, one gets the impression that there is nothing blacks could do to improve their lot—outside of asking the government for radical policy solutions. But there are things that blacks can do. Indeed, there are certain elements of black American culture that, if changed, would allow blacks to amass wealth to a degree that no government policy would be likely to match.

No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.

To what extent do poor spending habits explain the persistence of the wealth gap? Economists at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania asked this question after analyzing 16 years of nationally representative data from the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Consistent with the Nielsen data, they found that blacks with comparable incomes to whites spent 17 percent less on education, and 32 percent more (an extra $2300 per year in 2005 dollars) on ‘visible goods’—defined as cars, jewelry, and clothes. What’s more, “after controlling for visible spending,” they concluded that the “wealth gap between Blacks and Whites, conditional on permanent income, declines by 50 percent.” To be clear, that 50 percent figure doesn’t pertain to the total wealth gap, but to the proportion of the gap that remains after income is taken into account—which was 40 percent. The upshot: the fact that blacks spent more on cars, jewelry, and clothes explained fully 20 percent of the total racial wealth gap.

To make matters worse, spending patterns are just one part of a larger set of financial skills on which blacks lag behind. Researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis followed over 40,000 families from 1989 to 2013, tracking their wealth accumulation and financial decisions. They developed a financial health scale, ranging from 0 to 5, that measured the degree to which families made “routine financial health choices that contribute to wealth accumulation”—e.g., saving any amount of money, paying credit card bills on time, having a low debt-to-income ratio, etc. At 3.12, Asian families scored the highest, followed by whites at 3.11, Hispanics at 2.71, and blacks at 2.63.

Next, they asked if education accounted for the differences in financial habits by limiting the comparison to middle-aged families with advanced degrees. Surprisingly, they found that the racial gap in financial health-scores didn’t shrink; it widened. Highly-educated Asian families scored 3.49, comparable whites scored 3.38, comparable Hispanics scored 2.94, and comparable blacks remained far behind at 2.66. Thus, the study authors concluded, neither “periodic shortages of time or money” nor “lower educational attainment” were the driving forces behind the differences in financial decision-making.

Many find it hard to confront such data. People worry that discussing behaviors that blacks disproportionately engage in represents a backslide into white supremacy and racist stereotyping. Ibram X. Kendi expresses this concern in his New York Times bestseller Stamped from the Beginning: “When you truly believe that racial groups are equal, then you also believe that racial disparities must be the result of racial discrimination.”15

But this makes no sense. Is it racist to observe that whites are more likely to drive drunk than blacks are? Is it racist to assert that black immigrants in the UK outscore comparable white Britons on standardized tests? Is it racist to observe that black American culture has produced a higher number of musical icons than Asian-American culture has? And if it’s not racist to mention these facts, then why is it racist to mention the same kinds of facts when they run in the opposite direction? Moreover, cultural differences can even cause disparities between groups that belong to the same race, as with the aforementioned wealth disparities between black Americans and black Caribbeans living in Boston, or the nearly 4-to-1 income ratio between Taiwanese-Americans and Hmong-Americans. Discussing the different patterns of behavior that underlie such intra-racial disparities cannot be racist, by definition. Race and culture, though often correlated, are entirely different concepts.

Wow. I've just become a fan.

[Winterborn]

Careful... Sam Harris is a huge catch 22
If you hold something sacred you'll probably not enjoy his entire catalog

Right and Left pundits used to enjoy cherry picking his stuff
10 years ago guys like Sean Hannity and Don Lemon loved to isolate a single Harris point
and then invite him on the show - Needless to say it rarely went well

Harris gets invited nowhere anymore

He defines himself as a Liberal
and yet he is a huge critic of Liberalism
He pretty much dismantles all the liberal sacred cows

Enjoy !

The day I agree 100% with everything a person says, is the day I turn in my thinking card. That said, he most definitely is not a Liberal in the traditional sense. He holds some Liberal ideas sure, but overall he definitely does not drink the Kool-Aid. Still interesting to listen too, he has a way of articulating concepts and words that I envy a bit.

[JohnStOnge]

https://samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyo ... tics-race/

Interesting podcast with an undergrad at Columbia (a black guy BTW) who has taken a lot of heat basically writing on Quillette that (among other things) racism and slavery cannot account for all of the wealth gap that exists between blacks and whites.

Essentially, the left has made it taboo to say social gaps between white people and black people are due to anything other than past and present white racism. Even people who are liberal should see a big problem with that and question whether it will actually do black people any good, but Harris has been taking a lot of heat in Twitter for this and will probably get a lot more.

It seems there's a lot of people on the left that are all about evidence-based and data-driven policy until one of their sacred cows are standing in the way.

I’m only 20 minutes in. What else do they say the gap is due to?

See the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) data. If you do you're kind of forced to see genetics as a factor if you want to try to maintain any semblance of objectivity at all.

[SeattleGriz]

Sam Harris doesn't buy into junk DNA either.

[houndawg]

Kalm.. you never answered my question
Why do you keep saying we should bomb all the Muslims..?

Stale inventory?