Wolves

[Gil Dobie]

Your city life is showing. Why don't you get down off your high enviro-love all animals-horse and come back to real life.

There's the solution, catch them alive and ship them all to North Carolina

[AZGrizFan]

Environmentalists and animal lovers claim that wolves only kill the old and infirm. They claim that they kill only what they need for survival

Wolf Kills Link

Wolf Kills

While hunters claim they know how to best keep the population in check as they have done in the past....

Nice strawman argument, Appy.

Take pictures from 100 years ago, like they accurately represent wildlife managment today.

[Wedgebuster]

Your city life is showing. Why don't you get down off your high enviro-love all animals-horse and come back to real life.

There's the solution, catch them alive and ship them all to North Carolina

Just to demonstrate my generosity, they are welcome to a couple trailers full of grizzly bears too.

[Appaholic]

While hunters claim they know how to best keep the population in check as they have done in the past....

Nice strawman argument, Appy.

Take pictures from 100 years ago, like they accurately represent wildlife managment today.

Didn't post the picture to represent Wildlife Management, but human nature over many centuries....so that's inaccurate?

[AZGrizFan]

Didn't post the picture to represent Wildlife Management, but human nature over many centuries....so that's inaccurate?

Human nature 150 years ago is hardly accurate to represent human nature today.

[Appaholic]

Didn't post the picture to represent Wildlife Management, but human nature over many centuries....so that's inaccurate?

Human nature 150 years ago is hardly accurate to represent human nature today.

Well, that's good to know.....might want to send out a memo.....

[Gil Dobie]

Human nature part II, The Animal Lover

[Appaholic]

Human nature part II, The Animal Lover

Now I understand Griza's concern about the wolves running rampant....

[Grizalltheway]

Human nature 150 years ago is hardly accurate to represent human nature today.

Well, that's good to know.....might want to send out a memo.....

Z, you've taken enough of a beating on these wolf threads, I just can't stand to watch it anymore.

[AZGrizFan]

Well, that's good to know.....might want to send out a memo.....

Z, you've taken enough of a beating on these wolf threads, I just can't stand to watch it anymore.

I was speaking of Americans. None of those extermination pictures are happening in America.

[AZGrizFan]

Z, you've taken enough of a beating on these wolf threads, I just can't stand to watch it anymore.

I just LOVE a bleeding heart liberals definition of "a beating". You're a fucking joke, junior. You're not even old enough to HAVE an opinion.

Nevermind, I'm just still trying to prove that people are worse murderers than man.

[Grizalltheway]

Z, you've taken enough of a beating on these wolf threads, I just can't stand to watch it anymore.

I just LOVE a bleeding heart liberals definition of "a beating". You're a fucking joke, junior. You're not even old enough to HAVE an opinion.

Nevermind, I'm just still trying to prove that people are worse murderers than man.

I'll give you some time on that one, it may take a while.

[AZGrizFan]

I just LOVE a bleeding heart liberals definition of "a beating". You're a fucking joke, junior. You're not even old enough to HAVE an opinion.

Nevermind, I'm just still trying to prove that people are worse murderers than man.

I'll give you some time on that one, it may take a while.

Fine. Just don't define a "beating" as a discussion where his only ammunition is pictures from 100 years ago or pictures from third world countries.

[Appaholic]

I was speaking of Americans. None of those extermination pictures are happening in America.

There...I removed the non-American pictures..the pelts are in US customs for US consumers, the dogfighting/dog abuse pictures are American and the seals being clubbed are technically on the St. Lawrence river, so technically Canada....but close enough for government work....

[AZGrizFan]

I was speaking of Americans. None of those extermination pictures are happening in America.

There...I removed the non-American pictures..the pelts are in US customs for US consumers, the dogfighting/dog abuse pictures are American and the seals being clubbed are technically on the St. Lawrence river, so technically Canada....but close enough for government work....

last I checked, we didin't have any elephants, jaguars, etc. Those animals are being slaughtered in AFRICA, Japan (sharks & whales), China, India, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. The fact that a few people here buy them doesn't make America or our wildlife management system the devil. I'm speaking of AMERICAN management of AMERICAN resources. We don't randomly slaughter species any more (like the buffalo pics you posted earlier).

[Appaholic]

There...I removed the non-American pictures..the pelts are in US customs for US consumers, the dogfighting/dog abuse pictures are American and the seals being clubbed are technically on the St. Lawrence river, so technically Canada....but close enough for government work....

last I checked, we didin't have any elephants, jaguars, etc. Those animals are being slaughtered in AFRICA, Japan (sharks & whales), China, India, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. The fact that a few people here buy them doesn't make America or our wildlife management system the devil. I'm speaking of AMERICAN management of AMERICAN resources. We don't randomly slaughter species any more (like the buffalo pics you posted earlier).

Only because it's illegal, Z. Look at poachers, purveyors of canned hunts, the continued desire (illustrated by Griza himself) to exterminate all wolves from an area, etc....you stated we don't have that in us anymore and my response is that we do, but have learned to curb it only because it may lead to jail. Allowed to go unchecked or unmonitered would lead to further species extinction. I'm not speaking about Wildlife Management per se, but individual managment....

[AZGrizFan]

last I checked, we didin't have any elephants, jaguars, etc. Those animals are being slaughtered in AFRICA, Japan (sharks & whales), China, India, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. The fact that a few people here buy them doesn't make America or our wildlife management system the devil. I'm speaking of AMERICAN management of AMERICAN resources. We don't randomly slaughter species any more (like the buffalo pics you posted earlier).

Only because it's illegal, Z. Look at poachers, purveyors of canned hunts, the continued desire (illustrated by Griza himself) to exterminate all wolves from an area, etc....you stated we don't have that in us anymore and my response is that we do, but have learned to curb it only because it may lead to jail. Allowed to go unchecked or unmonitered would lead to further species extinction. I'm not speaking about Wildlife Management per se, but individual managment....

OK. Let me attempt to clarify. Poachers exist. Canned hunts exist. But as a general rule applied across human nature, those traits don't exist. I don't believe that we (as a society) have only curbed our "extermination" trait because it might lead to jail. That might have been the ORIGINAL cause, but I highly doubt, 100 years later, that we as a society would act that way. Grizza's emotion regarding the wolf is directly related to the havoc it will play on almost ALL other species in the woodlands. It's a classic case of compounding an error: they removed the wolves (error) years ago. Now we've had generations of animals born and raised who don't even know what a wolf IS, or to be scared of it. Then we suddenly put wolf packs BACK into the wild (compounded error) and they wreak havoc. For me it has little to do with whether I might get to shoot an elk (haven't hunted in 25 years) and WAY more to do with the impact their reintroduction will have on the balance of things as a whole. Then, they compound the compounded error by "re"-introducing a species that WASN'T EVEN NATIVE TO THE AREA TO BEGIN WITH!!!

Wedgie is right on the money with this one: For every dollar we've spent with this reintroduction program, we'll be spending $10 to eradicate them in 5-7 years when they've run roughshod over every other animal species in the West.

[Grizalltheway]

Only because it's illegal, Z. Look at poachers, purveyors of canned hunts, the continued desire (illustrated by Griza himself) to exterminate all wolves from an area, etc....you stated we don't have that in us anymore and my response is that we do, but have learned to curb it only because it may lead to jail. Allowed to go unchecked or unmonitered would lead to further species extinction. I'm not speaking about Wildlife Management per se, but individual managment....

OK. Let me attempt to clarify. Poachers exist. Canned hunts exist. But as a general rule applied across human nature, those traits don't exist. I don't believe that we (as a society) have only curbed our "extermination" trait because it might lead to jail. That might have been the ORIGINAL cause, but I highly doubt, 100 years later, that we as a society would act that way. Grizza's emotion regarding the wolf is directly related to the havoc it will play on almost ALL other species in the woodlands. It's a classic case of compounding an error: they removed the wolves (error) years ago. Now we've had generations of animals born and raised who don't even know what a wolf IS, or to be scared of it. Then we suddenly put wolf packs BACK into the wild (compounded error) and they wreak havoc. For me it has little to do with whether I might get to shoot an elk (haven't hunted in 25 years) and WAY more to do with the impact their reintroduction will have on the balance of things as a whole. Then, they compound the compounded error by "re"-introducing a species that WASN'T EVEN NATIVE TO THE AREA TO BEGIN WITH!!!

Wedgie is right on the money with this one: For every dollar we've spent with this reintroduction program, we'll be spending $10 to eradicate them in 5-7 years when they've run roughshod over every other animal species in the West.

Open season starts this fall, you don't think that will help control their numbers at all? Honest question.

[Appaholic]

Only because it's illegal, Z. Look at poachers, purveyors of canned hunts, the continued desire (illustrated by Griza himself) to exterminate all wolves from an area, etc....you stated we don't have that in us anymore and my response is that we do, but have learned to curb it only because it may lead to jail. Allowed to go unchecked or unmonitered would lead to further species extinction. I'm not speaking about Wildlife Management per se, but individual managment....

OK. Let me attempt to clarify. Poachers exist. Canned hunts exist. But as a general rule applied across human nature, those traits don't exist. I don't believe that we (as a society) have only curbed our "extermination" trait because it might lead to jail. That might have been the ORIGINAL cause, but I highly doubt, 100 years later, that we as a society would act that way. Grizza's emotion regarding the wolf is directly related to the havoc it will play on almost ALL other species in the woodlands. It's a classic case of compounding an error: they removed the wolves (error) years ago. Now we've had generations of animals born and raised who don't even know what a wolf IS, or to be scared of it. Then we suddenly put wolf packs BACK into the wild (compounded error) and they wreak havoc. For me it has little to do with whether I might get to shoot an elk (haven't hunted in 25 years) and WAY more to do with the impact their reintroduction will have on the balance of things as a whole. Then, they compound the compounded error by "re"-introducing a species that WASN'T EVEN NATIVE TO THE AREA TO BEGIN WITH!!!

Wedgie is right on the money with this one: For every dollar we've spent with this reintroduction program, we'll be spending $10 to eradicate them in 5-7 years when they've run roughshod over every other animal species in the West.

Fair enough...now, what was the original argument in this thread?

[AZGrizFan]

OK. Let me attempt to clarify. Poachers exist. Canned hunts exist. But as a general rule applied across human nature, those traits don't exist. I don't believe that we (as a society) have only curbed our "extermination" trait because it might lead to jail. That might have been the ORIGINAL cause, but I highly doubt, 100 years later, that we as a society would act that way. Grizza's emotion regarding the wolf is directly related to the havoc it will play on almost ALL other species in the woodlands. It's a classic case of compounding an error: they removed the wolves (error) years ago. Now we've had generations of animals born and raised who don't even know what a wolf IS, or to be scared of it. Then we suddenly put wolf packs BACK into the wild (compounded error) and they wreak havoc. For me it has little to do with whether I might get to shoot an elk (haven't hunted in 25 years) and WAY more to do with the impact their reintroduction will have on the balance of things as a whole. Then, they compound the compounded error by "re"-introducing a species that WASN'T EVEN NATIVE TO THE AREA TO BEGIN WITH!!!

Wedgie is right on the money with this one: For every dollar we've spent with this reintroduction program, we'll be spending $10 to eradicate them in 5-7 years when they've run roughshod over every other animal species in the West.

Open season starts this fall, you don't think that will help control their numbers at all? Honest question.

As I said earlier in the thread, for every one that's killed, 10 will take it's place. These things are multiplying like rabbits. It'll only slightly delay the inevitable.

[Appaholic]

Open season starts this fall, you don't think that will help control their numbers at all? Honest question.

As I said earlier in the thread, for every one that's killed, 10 will take it's place. These things are multiplying like rabbits. It'll only slightly delay the inevitable.

So it's like McCain's justification for Illegal immigration amnesty....

[grizzaholic]

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[dbackjon]

Nope Griza. I have no problem with targeting problematic bears or wolves. It is wholesale slaughter I object to.

BTW - I have been doing a lot of reading/thinking on this issue - will post something when I have the time, but you will find I DO read/listen and consider you/wedgie's/ etc POV's

[grizzaholic]

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[Grizalltheway]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Earth children that live in far away places attempting to enforce their ideologies on us Westerners.

Her Quote" I don't think hikers should be cooking in someone else's home and not invite them to dinner. That is just rude"

Dback and GATW, you also going to be sending money to help out the cause?


http://missoulian.com/news/local/articl ... 002e0.html

WEST GLACIER - Three people are camped beneath the cliffs at Morning Star Lake, in the stone-cold shadow of Medicine Grizzly Peak.

Unlike other Glacier National Park campers, these three are packing rifles, and tranquilizer guns, and a big bear cage. They're here to catch and kill a grizzly bear, and to carry her cubs off to the zoo - and that has outraged a handful of bear lovers.

Karen Stefanini sent the park $50 from her home in Boston, seed money, she said, for a rescue mission. She still holds hope for a stay of execution, and calls the 17-year-old sow grizzly "a precious bundle of love and joy."

Stefanini represents one-half of a deeply divided and emotional public, when it comes to wild grizzlies.

"Some want to demonize the bears as bloodthirsty killers," said Jack Potter, "and some want to turn them into Mary's little lamb."

Grizza, when we were talking about the upcoming wolf hunting season a while back, did I say anything negative about it? I didn't, and I'm fine with people killing wolves as long as there's some sort of regulation to it.