No doubt, America needs universal health care

[Wedgebuster]

Jon, as a healthcare provider, particularly one that runs a free clinic on the side, I can certainly say that the current system does a very poor job of providing for a certain portion of our population. And it isn't the low-life dope smokers. They get medicade and welfare. It's the working poor. However, I also have a large population of active Military families in my practice (we have a battalion stationed here, and I see a ton of those guys and their families. Their healthcare is the most mismanaged, poorly run, FUBAR shit I have ever dealt with. We have a problem, the solution offered by Mr. Obama and Mrs. Pelosi is not the answer. It is simply an expensive boondogle that will result in even fewer college students choosing Med. School, and even fewer of those that do, choosing family practice or internal medicine. That's just the tip of the iceberg of problems. We need a solution. I don't know what it is, but I don't think the one on the table right now will fix the problem.

Home run. Candy ass politicians too afraid to step up and do what needs to be done, pandering to every finger that is in the honey jar. This is a cluster fuck, and could actually end up worse than Bush's billion dollar giveaway to drug companies and insurance companies.

[Wedgebuster]

Government package, funded by taxpayers. Socialized medicine, but only available to the Government. Nobody else in the private sector has access to this type of health care, and apparently nobody who does have access thinks anybody else should.

Government entitlement, yessiree!

Simple answer: Go get a job with the government.

Only if we fire all the dead beats that are working there now.

[AZGrizFan]

Simple answer: Go get a job with the government.

Only if we fire all the dead beats that are working there now.

Why don't you "John Wayne" your way in there and clean house? You seem to have all the answers (in your own mind).

[AZGrizFan]

Jon, as a healthcare provider, particularly one that runs a free clinic on the side, I can certainly say that the current system does a very poor job of providing for a certain portion of our population. And it isn't the low-life dope smokers. They get medicade and welfare. It's the working poor. However, I also have a large population of active Military families in my practice (we have a battalion stationed here, and I see a ton of those guys and their families. Their healthcare is the most mismanaged, poorly run, FUBAR shit I have ever dealt with. We have a problem, the solution offered by Mr. Obama and Mrs. Pelosi is not the answer. It is simply an expensive boondogle that will result in even fewer college students choosing Med. School, and even fewer of those that do, choosing family practice or internal medicine. That's just the tip of the iceberg of problems. We need a solution. I don't know what it is, but I don't think the one on the table right now will fix the problem.

Home run. Candy ass politicians too afraid to step up and do what needs to be done, pandering to every finger that is in the honey jar. This is a cluster fuck, and could actually end up worse than Bush's billion dollar giveaway to drug companies and insurance companies.

Or Obama's TRILLION dollar giveaway to special interests---in just 5 short months in office!

[Wedgebuster]

Home run. Candy ass politicians too afraid to step up and do what needs to be done, pandering to every finger that is in the honey jar. This is a cluster fuck, and could actually end up worse than Bush's billion dollar giveaway to drug companies and insurance companies.

Or Obama's TRILLION dollar giveaway to special interests---in just 5 short months in office!

Tom,

Bush sucked,

Palin is a retard,

McCain lost,

Time to move on.

[death dealer]

You mean because you chose to go into a profession that pays like shit, you shouldn't have to pay as much for the same health care?

It's pretty average, pay wise. If I can get on a decent track career-wise, most jobs I take would likely offer some kind of health coverage. I'd be fine then. I mostly meant now, in the interim, while I'm in school.

You know Purp, I don't have a problem at all with providing free health insurance for college students, both grad and undergrad. They are working towards a degree, bettering themselves, and will eventually, hopefully, get out and get jobs. But I agree with AZ, if a person wants better health coverage than their job provides, then they should have gotten a better education, worked harder in school, chosen a career that paid better, etc., etc. That may sound harsh, but life is harsh, and just because someone didn't prepare themselves for that, does not in any way burden those that did with the responsibility of supporting them. And, I know, I know, you or those others had such bigger hills to climb than so and so. Well, that's completely not true, the average millionaire is a first genertion success and comes from very humble means. I myself am two generations removed from a Georgia share-cropper, who never owned the house he lived in, or the farm he worked.

[AZGrizFan]

Or Obama's TRILLION dollar giveaway to special interests---in just 5 short months in office!

Tom,

Bush sucked,

Palin is a retard,

McCain lost,

Time to move on.

All may be true. And NONE change the fact that Obama is sinking this country faster than Bush could have ever DREAMED of doing.

[Col Hogan]

How is the Colonel's health care socialized? Whether he works for the government or private sector is irrelevant. People work and receive a salary and benefits in return. One of the benefits can be health care. The money that is spent on his health care could be saved and returned to shareholders/taxpayers. Not providing health care as a benefit would make the job less appealing and the better employees would look for jobs with health care. The smart employer makes the decision that it makes sense to pay extra to attract better employees because the increased cost will be more than made up for by the increased productivity. What am I missing?

Government package, funded by taxpayers. Socialized medicine, but only available to the Government. Nobody else in the private sector has access to this type of health care, and apparently nobody who does have access thinks anybody else should.

Government entitlement, yessiree!

Uni, thanks for picking up the ball...but you (and I, and AZ) are beating our heads against the wall with Wedgie...

I'm military retired and work for a private company that gives better benefits than the military...but Wedgie wants to focus on my military benefits, calling them government entitlements...like they are just given to me...

He could not get the benefits offered by the private business I work for...why isn't that an issue.....wait....BECAUSE he doesn't work for this company...

Why can't he have the same benefits my military retirement gives me......BECAUSE he didn't earn them by serving so long...

He's already stated he wants socialized medicine...

If the military would give me the money they took from me during my career in reduced wages to pay for my retirement, I'd gladly give up my "military" benefit to purchase more coverage from my current company...

But, nothing is going to change his mind...especially not facts...so, thanks again ...nice to have someone know the facts and accept them for what they are...

[Wedgebuster]

Government package, funded by taxpayers. Socialized medicine, but only available to the Government. Nobody else in the private sector has access to this type of health care, and apparently nobody who does have access thinks anybody else should.

Government entitlement, yessiree!

Uni, thanks for picking up the ball...but you (and I, and AZ) are beating our heads against the wall with Wedgie...

I'm military retired and work for a private company that gives better benefits than the military...but Wedgie wants to focus on my military benefits, calling them government entitlements...like they are just given to me...

He could not get the benefits offered by the private business I work for...why isn't that an issue.....wait....BECAUSE he doesn't work for this company...

Why can't he have the same benefits my military retirement gives me......BECAUSE he didn't earn them by serving so long...

He's already stated he wants socialized medicine...

If the military would give me the money they took from me during my career in reduced wages to pay for my retirement, I'd gladly give up my "military" benefit to purchase more coverage from my current company...

But, nothing is going to change his mind...especially not facts...so, thanks again ...nice to have someone know the facts and accept them for what they are...

Then just shut up Hoagie, enjoy your bennies, and quit telling us how you hate the idea of universal health care. I had no bone to pick with you over your entitlements until you started shooting your mouth off against the current effort to reign in medical costs.

I'm sure you are worth every penny I have to pay in taxes, so you don't have to keep expounding on this board how good you are, and what all you have sacrificed for the good of all, but never for your own personal good, you can be our martyr-

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Wedge, I don't know how you can think of part of a benefits package as what many are proposing to do with the countries health care for everyone. That point seems to be very strong with you but it doesn't make a bit of sense when it's a part of someone's pay. If it's part of their pay they are working for it and that is a huge difference because if their was a system that would cover everyone and they had to contribute SOMETHING to the pot then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You are not making any sense in your argument with saying AZ, Col., and others are getting something given to them for free. If they have it then it was offered to them and they worked for it.

[Col Hogan]

[UNI88]

Uni, thanks for picking up the ball...but you (and I, and AZ) are beating our heads against the wall with Wedgie...

I'm military retired and work for a private company that gives better benefits than the military...but Wedgie wants to focus on my military benefits, calling them government entitlements...like they are just given to me...

He could not get the benefits offered by the private business I work for...why isn't that an issue.....wait....BECAUSE he doesn't work for this company...

Why can't he have the same benefits my military retirement gives me......BECAUSE he didn't earn them by serving so long...

He's already stated he wants socialized medicine...

If the military would give me the money they took from me during my career in reduced wages to pay for my retirement, I'd gladly give up my "military" benefit to purchase more coverage from my current company...

But, nothing is going to change his mind...especially not facts...so, thanks again ...nice to have someone know the facts and accept them for what they are...

Then just shut up Hoagie, enjoy your bennies, and quit telling us how you hate the idea of universal health care. I had no bone to pick with you over your entitlements until you started shooting your mouth off against the current effort to reign in medical costs.

I'm sure you are worth every penny I have to pay in taxes, so you don't have to keep expounding on this board how good you are, and what all you have sacrificed for the good of all, but never for your own personal good, you can be our martyr-

Wedgie, I'm willing to listen to your arguments but your harping on the Colonel's benefits as socialized entitlements weakens your case IMO. He is getting his benefits from a private enterprise and any "government" benefits that he might be eligible for he earned through his years of service in the armed forces. You can downplay his service but the reality is that people join for a variety of reasons despite the low pay and benefits are one of them.

[Wedgebuster]

Wedge, I don't know how you can think of part of a benefits package as what many are proposing to do with the countries health care for everyone. That point seems to be very strong with you but it doesn't make a bit of sense when it's a part of someone's pay. If it's part of their pay they are working for it and that is a huge difference because if their was a system that would cover everyone and they had to contribute SOMETHING to the pot then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You are not making any sense in your argument with saying AZ, Col., and others are getting something given to them for free. If they have it then it was offered to them and they worked for it.

I'm poking their selfish asses for their negativity and indifference towards the real problem we have here today, totally ridiculous inflation in the health care industry that is fueled by unmitigated greed. They have their piece of the American dream and everybody else can just suck it up and get a job that provides insurance. ( ) Hoagie has been under the wing of our government for eons, and I already posted to him why I was taking shots at him, because of his "me first" attitude. You and I know what "insurability" means, obviously there are a few here that don't give a shit about that either. It's all about what I believe to be a right, that is equal access to health care regardless of that persons health. Don't you find it ironic in our "free" society that those who are in the highest need of health care can not get it because they are "uninsurable" do to preexisting conditions?

Now when somebody says they can't afford health insurance premiums, I believe them, because I have seen underwriting of health policies in action.

The standard answer from AZ and Hoags is "get a better job," or "get a better education."

Charles Dickens anyone?

[Wedgebuster]

Then just shut up Hoagie, enjoy your bennies, and quit telling us how you hate the idea of universal health care. I had no bone to pick with you over your entitlements until you started shooting your mouth off against the current effort to reign in medical costs.

I'm sure you are worth every penny I have to pay in taxes, so you don't have to keep expounding on this board how good you are, and what all you have sacrificed for the good of all, but never for your own personal good, you can be our martyr-

Wedgie, I'm willing to listen to your arguments but your harping on the Colonel's benefits as socialized entitlements weakens your case IMO. He is getting his benefits from a private enterprise and any "government" benefits that he might be eligible for he earned through his years of service in the armed forces. You can downplay his service but the reality is that people join for a variety of reasons despite the low pay and benefits are one of them.

That's because he's acting like an entitled asshole.

[UNI88]

Wedgie, I'm willing to listen to your arguments but your harping on the Colonel's benefits as socialized entitlements weakens your case IMO. He is getting his benefits from a private enterprise and any "government" benefits that he might be eligible for he earned through his years of service in the armed forces. You can downplay his service but the reality is that people join for a variety of reasons despite the low pay and benefits are one of them.

That's because he's acting like an entitled *******.

I disagree. The Colonel has already stated that he doesn't have a problem with the states providing health care benefits if they so choose but he doesn't think that it is within the realm of the federal government. What you call a '"me first" attitude' could also be considered someone who wants a smaller federal government, for people to take responsibility for their own lives, etc. Both positions have their merits, which one you believe is correct depends on your perspective.

I've agreed that access to health care is a problem but you haven't convinced me that:
1) socializing it will reduce costs (at least not without quality of care ramifications)
2) the federal government could provide health care benefits to all without f**king it up worse than the private sector.

IMO, health care provided by the federal government is the lazy way out to really taking a look at the problem and coming up with a solution that will actually work.

[ASUMountaineer]

Wedge, I don't know how you can think of part of a benefits package as what many are proposing to do with the countries health care for everyone. That point seems to be very strong with you but it doesn't make a bit of sense when it's a part of someone's pay. If it's part of their pay they are working for it and that is a huge difference because if their was a system that would cover everyone and they had to contribute SOMETHING to the pot then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You are not making any sense in your argument with saying AZ, Col., and others are getting something given to them for free. If they have it then it was offered to them and they worked for it.

I'm poking their selfish asses for their negativity and indifference towards the real problem we have here today, totally ridiculous inflation in the health care industry that is fueled by unmitigated greed. They have their piece of the American dream and everybody else can just suck it up and get a job that provides insurance. ( ) Hoagie has been under the wing of our government for eons, and I already posted to him why I was taking shots at him, because of his "me first" attitude. You and I know what "insurability" means, obviously there are a few here that don't give a **** about that either. It's all about what I believe to be a right, that is equal access to health care regardless of that persons health. Don't you find it ironic in our "free" society that those who are in the highest need of health care can not get it because they are "uninsurable" do to preexisting conditions?

Now when somebody says they can't afford health insurance premiums, I believe them, because I have seen underwriting of health policies in action.

The standard answer from AZ and Hoags is "get a better job," or "get a better education."

Charles Dickens anyone?

Ok, that's a post that is getting to a point. What we should be talking about is access to health insurance, not health care...they're two different things. My assumption is, you mean access to health insurance, or at least that appears to be the case. Everyone has the equal opportunity to purchase insurance. Unaffordability is not the same as denying a right. And, unfortunately, there are people who cannot afford to purchase health insurance.

And, I understand what you're saying about uninsurability. Would a system that allows people who are uninsurable by today's health insurance standards the ability to be insured, backed up by the government (to alleviate excessive cost to companies) be a compromise versus universal health insurace for all?

Overall, I still feel access to health insurance is not a right (in the sense the right to vote is a right), BUT something we would all like to see happen. However, there are different ways to achieve that. Is there no way to reign in skyrocketing costs and help get everyone (who doesn't have) access to health insurance without mandating universal coverage?

[Wedgebuster]

It is already totally out of control, can't you see that?

The message to the health industry as a whole should be- Get control of your industry, or lose control of your industry. This is not like the automobile industry crisis, this is about our health. We should not have to feel like we are dealing with organized crime in order to have health care.

IMO, private health industry is cutting off the head of the goose that lays the golden egg.

Again, way too many greedy interests standing in the way of the doctor/patient relationship.

Single payer baby, single payer.

[ASUMountaineer]

It is already totally out of control, can't you see that?

The message to the health industry as a whole should be- Get control of your industry, or lose control of your industry. This is not like the automobile industry crisis, this is about our health. We should not have to feel like we are dealing with organized crime in order to have health care.

IMO, private health industry is cutting off the head of the goose that lays the golden egg.

Again, way too many greedy interests standing in the way of the doctor/patient relationship.

Single payer baby, single payer.

And the way too many greedy interests in Washington would do a better job? You have to think about it in those ways too...who would be in charge of this single payer system...Sanjay Gupta? Congress? FDA?

To me, I would feel like I'm dealing with organized crime with Washington running health care.

I don't think anyone here is denying the fact that health insurance costs are too high, and unattainble for some people. I'm still not sure what you're wanting...free HEALTH CARE to all or free HEALTH INSURANCE to all? There is a difference. You're unwilling to look at other options, and when I suggested another option you bashed insurance companies and called for government mandated health care/ insurance (not sure which one).

Would you, but most importantly would Washington, be open to other options, or will they also limit themselves to one option?

[AZGrizFan]

Wedge, I don't know how you can think of part of a benefits package as what many are proposing to do with the countries health care for everyone. That point seems to be very strong with you but it doesn't make a bit of sense when it's a part of someone's pay. If it's part of their pay they are working for it and that is a huge difference because if their was a system that would cover everyone and they had to contribute SOMETHING to the pot then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You are not making any sense in your argument with saying AZ, Col., and others are getting something given to them for free. If they have it then it was offered to them and they worked for it.

I'm poking their selfish asses for their negativity and indifference towards the real problem we have here today, totally ridiculous inflation in the health care industry that is fueled by unmitigated greed. They have their piece of the American dream and everybody else can just suck it up and get a job that provides insurance. ( ) Hoagie has been under the wing of our government for eons, and I already posted to him why I was taking shots at him, because of his "me first" attitude. You and I know what "insurability" means, obviously there are a few here that don't give a shit about that either. It's all about what I believe to be a right, that is equal access to health care regardless of that persons health. Don't you find it ironic in our "free" society that those who are in the highest need of health care can not get it because they are "uninsurable" do to preexisting conditions?

Now when somebody says they can't afford health insurance premiums, I believe them, because I have seen underwriting of health policies in action.

The standard answer from AZ and Hoags is "get a better job," or "get a better education."

Charles Dickens anyone?

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

[Wedgebuster]

I'm poking their selfish asses for their negativity and indifference towards the real problem we have here today, totally ridiculous inflation in the health care industry that is fueled by unmitigated greed. They have their piece of the American dream and everybody else can just suck it up and get a job that provides insurance. ( ) Hoagie has been under the wing of our government for eons, and I already posted to him why I was taking shots at him, because of his "me first" attitude. You and I know what "insurability" means, obviously there are a few here that don't give a shit about that either. It's all about what I believe to be a right, that is equal access to health care regardless of that persons health. Don't you find it ironic in our "free" society that those who are in the highest need of health care can not get it because they are "uninsurable" do to preexisting conditions?

Now when somebody says they can't afford health insurance premiums, I believe them, because I have seen underwriting of health policies in action.

The standard answer from AZ and Hoags is "get a better job," or "get a better education."

Charles Dickens anyone?

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

There he goes again!

With that get a job stuff!

[AZGrizFan]

There he goes again! With that get a job stuff!

How does a self-proclaimed self-made man such as yourself stomach the thought of yet ANOTHER poorly run, bloated, mismanaged government agency? While the current healthcare system may be broken, the ANSWER is not to let the government "fix" it.

[Wedgebuster]

There he goes again! With that get a job stuff!

How does a self-proclaimed self-made man such as yourself stomach the thought of yet ANOTHER poorly run, bloated, mismanaged government agency? While the current healthcare system may be broken, the ANSWER is not to let the government "fix" it.

Cause I'm a MAVERICK!

[AZGrizFan]

How does a self-proclaimed self-made man such as yourself stomach the thought of yet ANOTHER poorly run, bloated, mismanaged government agency? While the current healthcare system may be broken, the ANSWER is not to let the government "fix" it.

Cause I'm a MAVERICK!

Funny, I didn't know you were related to McCain.

[Wedgebuster]

Cause I'm a MAVERICK!

Funny, I didn't know you were related to McCain.

Well, I'm almost certain you are related to Palin.

[UNI88]

I'm poking their selfish asses for their negativity and indifference towards the real problem we have here today, totally ridiculous inflation in the health care industry that is fueled by unmitigated greed. They have their piece of the American dream and everybody else can just suck it up and get a job that provides insurance. ( ) Hoagie has been under the wing of our government for eons, and I already posted to him why I was taking shots at him, because of his "me first" attitude. You and I know what "insurability" means, obviously there are a few here that don't give a **** about that either. It's all about what I believe to be a right, that is equal access to health care regardless of that persons health. Don't you find it ironic in our "free" society that those who are in the highest need of health care can not get it because they are "uninsurable" do to preexisting conditions?

Now when somebody says they can't afford health insurance premiums, I believe them, because I have seen underwriting of health policies in action.

The standard answer from AZ and Hoags is "get a better job," or "get a better education."

Charles Dickens anyone?

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.