Hong Kong demonstrations

[Ibanez]

How many people actually thought, back in 1997, that the Red Chinks would actually back off for 50 years? I know I didn’t.

all I know is... that if Obama were president
We'd be talking about how this wouldn't happen if a Republican were president
China would never pull this stunt with a real man as President

Because Republican stuff

Wait..are you telling me that Republicans and Democrats will be hypocrites? Are you telling me that they will be loose with the truth and historical fact?

I don't believe it. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!

[GannonFan]

It is unfortunate

People are going to die in Hong Kong before this mess is over.

But China won't be able to whitewash it the way they did Tienanmen Square... too many iPhones

I'll bet Hong Kongers don't think of big bad Britain when they talk about "colonialism" now

It is also inconvenient - every time China starts to look a bit like a sympathetic character to the "socialism works some places" crowd... China goes and shows us the actual nuts and bolts of how it works

These people just need to get with the program... it is for the greater good

I don't know how much China really cares about whitewashing it, at least to their own people. That was certainly a concern 30 years ago, but I get the sense China is much more unified in terms of thinking than they were 30 years ago. The population is much more bought in to the Middle Kingdom resurgence thing and they're probably wondering why they haven't been quicker to snuff out these protests. Heck, a student demonstration at a college in Australia by pro-Hong Kong folks, including Hong Kong nationals, got broken up by a larger group of pro-Bejing Chinese students who saw it as an affront to national honor.

[Chizzang]

all I know is... that if Obama were president
We'd be talking about how this wouldn't happen if a Republican were president
China would never pull this stunt with a real man as President

Because Republican stuff

Wait..are you telling me that Republicans and Democrats will be hypocrites? Are you telling me that they will be loose with the truth and historical fact?

I don't believe it. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!

I'm telling you this is one of those moments that I'm glad Trump is president



you know, so he can show us all how it's done

[dbackjon]

How many people actually thought, back in 1997, that the Red Chinks would actually back off for 50 years? I know I didn’t.

all I know is... that if Obama were president
We'd be talking about how this would never happen if a Republican were president
China would never pull this stunt with a real man as President

Because Republican stuff

and yet here we are...

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Wait..are you telling me that Republicans and Democrats will be hypocrites? Are you telling me that they will be loose with the truth and historical fact?

I don't believe it. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!

I'm telling you this is one of those moments that I'm glad Trump is president



you know, so he can show us all how it's done

And by that you mean stay out of it.............

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[Pwns]

Just an anecdote: I remember a guy I used to work with several years ago who was from Hong Kong and he would always correct people when they'd say he was Chinese and made sure people understood HK is not to China what Texas or California would be to the US. Said he felt the place was more like South Korea or Japan than China.

If you've got that much cultural heterogeneity these things are inevitable. I think the Chinese knew there would be pushback from the new proposed extradition agreement but that they didn't expect they'd get Arab-Spring-scale demonstrations.

[AZGrizFan]

all I know is... that if Obama were president
We'd be talking about how this wouldn't happen if a Republican were president
China would never pull this stunt with a real man as President

Because Republican stuff

Wait..are you telling me that Republicans and Democrats will be hypocrites? Are you telling me that they will be loose with the truth and historical fact?

I don't believe it. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!

Well, the Russia/Ukraine China/Hong Kong comparison are hardly apples to apples.

That being said, both Obama AND Trump are making the right call. Stay the fuck OUT. We have got to stop being the world's policeman.

[css75]

Now what would the US do if the Chinese tried this with Taiwan?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ibanez]

Wait..are you telling me that Republicans and Democrats will be hypocrites? Are you telling me that they will be loose with the truth and historical fact?

I don't believe it. I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!

Well, the Russia/Ukraine China/Hong Kong comparison are hardly apples to apples.

That being said, both Obama AND Trump are making the right call. Stay the fuck OUT. We have got to stop being the world's policeman.

[CID1990]

It is unfortunate

People are going to die in Hong Kong before this mess is over.

But China won't be able to whitewash it the way they did Tienanmen Square... too many iPhones

I'll bet Hong Kongers don't think of big bad Britain when they talk about "colonialism" now

It is also inconvenient - every time China starts to look a bit like a sympathetic character to the "socialism works some places" crowd... China goes and shows us the actual nuts and bolts of how it works

These people just need to get with the program... it is for the greater good

You're calling the Chinese Military Dictatorship a version of "socialism" ..?
or you're saying that that is ultimately what all socialist countries become?



I've heard economists argue the U.S. is closer to a socialist country than China right now
Slave Labor camps / kinda a dictatorship thing
https://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/research ... yChina.pdf

China evolved into the endpoint state for a socialist country years ago. In fact what China is is the BEST possibility

I said socialist because its easier than saying “single party socialist command dictatorships with free market characteristics”

This is how they must behave or they ultimately lose control. Liberty is the natural state of human beings and they will resist totalitarianism - it is as inevitable as death and taxes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CID1990]

It is unfortunate

People are going to die in Hong Kong before this mess is over.

But China won't be able to whitewash it the way they did Tienanmen Square... too many iPhones

I'll bet Hong Kongers don't think of big bad Britain when they talk about "colonialism" now

It is also inconvenient - every time China starts to look a bit like a sympathetic character to the "socialism works some places" crowd... China goes and shows us the actual nuts and bolts of how it works

These people just need to get with the program... it is for the greater good

I don't know how much China really cares about whitewashing it, at least to their own people. That was certainly a concern 30 years ago, but I get the sense China is much more unified in terms of thinking than they were 30 years ago. The population is much more bought in to the Middle Kingdom resurgence thing and they're probably wondering why they haven't been quicker to snuff out these protests. Heck, a student demonstration at a college in Australia by pro-Hong Kong folks, including Hong Kong nationals, got broken up by a larger group of pro-Bejing Chinese students who saw it as an affront to national honor.

That’s right ^^^

China has successfully stoked their own nationalist fervor over the last two decades

I don’t expect them to move the needle with their own people at all

or the legions of Chinese agents in the US (er I mean student visa holders)

But there are plenty of Western apologists for China who need to be “woke”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CID1990]

Now what would the US do if the Chinese tried this with Taiwan?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Nothing.

As it should be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chizzang]

[
But there are plenty of Western apologists for China who need to be “woke”

“President Xi, who is a strong man, I call him ‘king’,” Trump said in a wide-ranging speech at Tuesday’s dinner. “He said, ‘But I am not king, I am president.’ I said, ‘No, you are president for life, and therefore you are king.’ He said, ‘Huh … huh.’ He liked that. I call him ‘king’. I get along with him great.”




Who needs to get woke exactly..?

[∞∞∞]

Liberty is the natural state of human beings and they will resist totalitarianism - it is as inevitable as death and taxes.

That's completely false and most anthropologists and philosophers will tell you so. Humans are social animals which value survival and rules. Most humans will easily ignore liberty - as we did for tens of thousands of years and still do - if it means they're accepted by other humans (survival). Totalitarianism falls when a critical number of humans have a different idea of how they want to run that society. More often than not, the gov't isn't replaced by others which value liberty, but simply by a society which value something else.

We're one of the most social species in the entire animal kingdom; liberty is literally the antithesis of who we are. That's why the US (and subsequent others) are such radical experiments in mankind's history. And even today, liberty is not the norm throughout the world.

I'd be more afraid that we revert to our actual natural state than us reverting back to liberty.

[AZGrizFan]

Liberty is the natural state of human beings and they will resist totalitarianism - it is as inevitable as death and taxes.

That's completely false and most anthropologists and philosophers will tell you so. Humans are social animals which value survival and rules. Most humans will easily ignore liberty - as we did for tens of thousands of years and still do - if it means they're accepted by other humans (survival).

We're one of the most social species in the entire animal kingdom; liberty is literally the antithesis of who we are. That's why the US (and subsequent others) are such radical experiments in mankind's history And even today, liberty is not the norm throughout the world.

Liberty: the quality or state of being free:
a: the power to do as one pleases
b: freedom from physical restraint
c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic (see despot sense 1) control
d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e: the power of choice

Liberty. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

phpBB [video]

[∞∞∞]

:
a: the power to do as one pleases
b: freedom from physical restraint
c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic (see despot sense 1) control
d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e: the power of choice

Liberty. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I don't disagree with the definition of liberty.

I completely disagree that it's our natural state. Lots of reading which backs that up.

[AZGrizFan]

:
a: the power to do as one pleases
b: freedom from physical restraint
c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic (see despot sense 1) control
d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e: the power of choice

Liberty. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I don't disagree with the definition of liberty.

I completely disagree that it's our natural state. Lots of reading which backs that up.

Great. Liberty can be our natural state and people could not be experiencing liberty. Both are possible.

[CID1990]

Liberty is the natural state of human beings and they will resist totalitarianism - it is as inevitable as death and taxes.

That's completely false and most anthropologists and philosophers will tell you so. Humans are social animals which value survival and rules. Most humans will easily ignore liberty - as we did for tens of thousands of years and still do - if it means they're accepted by other humans (survival). Totalitarianism falls when a critical number of humans have a different idea of how they want to run that society. More often than not, the gov't isn't replaced by others which value liberty, but simply by a society which value something else.

We're one of the most social species in the entire animal kingdom; liberty is literally the antithesis of who we are. That's why the US (and subsequent others) are such radical experiments in mankind's history. And even today, liberty is not the norm throughout the world.

I'd be more afraid that we revert to our actual natural state than us reverting back to liberty.

Color me shocked that this is your opinion

You just skipped completely over the Enlightenment - liberty is the natural state - each individual essentially wishes to be left alone

What you are describing is group behavior... liberty for me but not for thee... it is pretty much the most pedestrian tapdance available to statist little Mussolinis out there. Completely unsurprising for you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GannonFan]

That's completely false and most anthropologists and philosophers will tell you so. Humans are social animals which value survival and rules. Most humans will easily ignore liberty - as we did for tens of thousands of years and still do - if it means they're accepted by other humans (survival). Totalitarianism falls when a critical number of humans have a different idea of how they want to run that society. More often than not, the gov't isn't replaced by others which value liberty, but simply by a society which value something else.

We're one of the most social species in the entire animal kingdom; liberty is literally the antithesis of who we are. That's why the US (and subsequent others) are such radical experiments in mankind's history. And even today, liberty is not the norm throughout the world.

I'd be more afraid that we revert to our actual natural state than us reverting back to liberty.

Color me shocked that this is your opinion

You just skipped completely over the Enlightenment - liberty is the natural state - each individual essentially wishes to be left alone

What you are describing is group behavior... liberty for me but not for thee... it is pretty much the most pedestrian tapdance available to statist little Mussolinis out there. Completely unsurprising for you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Yep Yup

[css75]

Yep,yep, yep,and yep.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pwns]

Liberty is the natural state of human beings and they will resist totalitarianism - it is as inevitable as death and taxes.

That's completely false and most anthropologists and philosophers will tell you so. Humans are social animals which value survival and rules. Most humans will easily ignore liberty - as we did for tens of thousands of years and still do - if it means they're accepted by other humans (survival). Totalitarianism falls when a critical number of humans have a different idea of how they want to run that society. More often than not, the gov't isn't replaced by others which value liberty, but simply by a society which value something else.

We're one of the most social species in the entire animal kingdom; liberty is literally the antithesis of who we are. That's why the US (and subsequent others) are such radical experiments in mankind's history. And even today, liberty is not the norm throughout the world.

I'd be more afraid that we revert to our actual natural state than us reverting back to liberty.

As long as the most successful countries are democratic ones with basic liberties, non-democratic societies will tend in that direction. It might take generations and be very slow, that's bend the trend for a while now and it's not going to reverse unless someone comes up with some system not done before that's better.

[∞∞∞]

Color me shocked that this is your opinion

You just skipped completely over the Enlightenment - liberty is the natural state - each individual essentially wishes to be left alone.

What you are describing is group behavior... liberty for me but not for thee... it is pretty much the most pedestrian tapdance available to statist little Mussolinis out there. Completely unsurprising for you.

Liberty is a fairly recent philosophy (which I agree with), but it's silly to argue it's our "natural state." While humans are great at adapting to new ideas, there hasn't been nearly enough time to rewire our brains to value liberty over tens of thousands of years of evolution.

For as long as we've existed, humans have - willingly and happily - set aside individual liberty for the benefit of society, religion, relationships, work, leaders, military service, etc.

[CID1990]

Color me shocked that this is your opinion

You just skipped completely over the Enlightenment - liberty is the natural state - each individual essentially wishes to be left alone.

What you are describing is group behavior... liberty for me but not for thee... it is pretty much the most pedestrian tapdance available to statist little Mussolinis out there. Completely unsurprising for you.

Liberty is a fairly recent philosophy (which I agree with), but it's silly to argue it's our "natural state." While humans are great at adapting to new ideas, there hasn't been nearly enough time to rewire our brains to value liberty over tens of thousands of years of evolution.

For as long as we've existed, humans have - willingly and happily - set aside individual liberty for the benefit of society, religion, relationships, work, leaders, military service, etc.

Ok

I don’t have the energy to unpack this tripe

The Enlightenment was a eureka moment in civilization - born of all that willing oppressive history you cite

It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[∞∞∞]

Ok

I don’t have the energy to unpack this tripe

The Enlightenment was a eureka moment in civilization - born of all that willing oppressive history you cite

It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right.

Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.