Is Montana turning into the Alabama of the North?

[AZGrizFan]

It is true but it is also a bit of a silly point.

Not dissimilar to the one about the klan being a product of the Democrats. True, but irrelevant.

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I don't think it's totally irrelevant. I was using it to show that it isn't just the Conks that have "gone off the cliff." Both parties have moved toward the extremes.

Which was preemptive and which was reactionary?

[dbackjon]

I don't think it's totally irrelevant. I was using it to show that it isn't just the Conks that have "gone off the cliff." Both parties have moved toward the extremes.

Which was preemptive and which was reactionary?

If you look at the GOP in the 1980's and 90's truthfully, you will see a concerted effort to move the entire party to the right. Moderate Republicans were driven out. Then, when Newt became speaker in 1994, along with the rise of extremist right-wing media like Rush, Hannity and FoxNews, the GOP took a HARD lurch to the right. The Democratic Party still has many moderate to Conservative members. GOP? Just question dear leader and they want you out.

[AZGrizFan]

Which was preemptive and which was reactionary?

If you look at the GOP in the 1980's and 90's truthfully, you will see a concerted effort to move the entire party to the right. Moderate Republicans were driven out. Then, when Newt became speaker in 1994, along with the rise of extremist right-wing media like Rush, Hannity and FoxNews, the GOP took a HARD lurch to the right. The Democratic Party still has many moderate to Conservative members. GOP? Just question dear leader and they want you out.

Yeah, but that’s just in the last two years.

Plus, I find it funny that in one sentence you say it was a “concerted effort to more the party to the right” while in the same breath say “Reagan wouldn’t be welcomed into his own party today”.

Which is it? Because it can’t be both.

[CID1990]

It is true but it is also a bit of a silly point.

Not dissimilar to the one about the klan being a product of the Democrats. True, but irrelevant.

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I don't think it's totally irrelevant. I was using it to show that it isn't just the Conks that have "gone off the cliff." Both parties have moved toward the extremes.

I get that -

But there is little to no utility to comparing today’s politicians to yesterday’s

Nobody knows where JFK or Reagan would come down in today’s spectrum, because nobody ever asked them about issues that exist today, or even could have predicted them.

Today’s left and right are shaped by the past and present - politicians of the past are only a small part of that equation


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[CID1990]

It is true but it is also a bit of a silly point.

Not dissimilar to the one about the klan being a product of the Democrats. True, but irrelevant.

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I don't think it's totally irrelevant. I was using it to show that it isn't just the Conks that have "gone off the cliff." Both parties have moved toward the extremes.

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."

- L. P. Hartley

[BDKJMU]

I think that's true of both extremes. Neither Reagan or Kennedy/Johnson would be welcome in their own party today.

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Neither would a bunch of other presidents before them.

[89Hen]

So we're making it about ourselves. You are an extremist Jon. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

LOL. I am far closer to the center than any of the Conks on this board. Problem is you, and the GOP have gone so far off the cliff to the right that what would have been the center 30 years ago is leftist to you.

You're high.

Do I need to go back to the dozens of "Fuck X GOPer" threads you've started over the years?

[SeattleGriz]

LOL. I am far closer to the center than any of the Conks on this board. Problem is you, and the GOP have gone so far off the cliff to the right that what would have been the center 30 years ago is leftist to you.

You're high.

Do I need to go back to the dozens of "Fuck X GOPer" threads you've started over the years?

I wish I could find the article, but it shows how what Jon said, is exactly the opposite of the truth. The left has veered further left, while the right has pretty much stayed the same.

The real irony of the article was that even though the article stated how far apart the two have become, it's visual showed it was mainly the Left.

[UNI88]

You're high.

Do I need to go back to the dozens of "Fuck X GOPer" threads you've started over the years?

I wish I could find the article, but it shows how what Jon said, is exactly the opposite of the truth. The left has veered further left, while the right has pretty much stayed the same.

The real irony of the article was that even though the article stated how far apart the two have become, it's visual showed it was mainly the Left.

Linky?

As someone in the mushy middle, I call BS. The Tea Party, Freedom Caucus, etc. aren't exactly bastions of inclusion & compromise. Both sides have veered away from the center and become much less tolerant of differing opinions within their own ranks. Both sides have been willing to primary a candidate that doesn't toe the line even if that means they might lose a general election as a result.

[89Hen]

[dbackjon]

So the GOP started out far more right wing, and has stayed there. 3/4 of the GOP considers themselves conservative, yet only 50% of Dems call themselves Liberal. Dems are far more centerist than the GOP.


Also, what we consider a Liberal or conservative has changed.

Take the EPA and Endangered Species Act, signed into law by a Republican. Now, the GOP considers both to be commie socialist plots to take away our freedom.

[GannonFan]

Take the EPA and Endangered Species Act, signed into law by a Republican. Now, the GOP considers both to be commie socialist plots to take away our freedom.

How can you consider yourself a centrist, or close to one, when you truly believe that about the opposition party? There are probably just as many GOP whackos who truly believe those things to be a commie socialist plot, as you say, as there are actual Dem whackos who truly want and hope it is a commie socialist plot.

[89Hen]

3/4 of the GOP considers themselves conservative, yet only 50% of Dems call themselves Liberal. Dems are far more centerist than the GOP.

Key words. Libs don't like being called liberal... hence why they often insist on being called "progressives". The change from 25 > 51 is a quantum shift.

[89Hen]

How can you consider yourself a centrist, or close to one...

I don't think he really does deep down.

Over the years I've actually moved more to the middle. I'm not a centrist, don't pretend to be one. But I am sure that I'm far more close to the middle than Jon. He's as far left as BDK is right.

[Ivytalk]

So the GOP started out far more right wing, and has stayed there. 3/4 of the GOP considers themselves conservative, yet only 50% of Dems call themselves Liberal. Dems are far more centerist than the GOP.


Also, what we consider a Liberal or conservative has changed.

Take the EPA and Endangered Species Act, signed into law by a Republican. Now, the GOP considers both to be commie socialist plots to take away our freedom.

Well, dback, looking at the trajectory for the Donks in the very graph that you cite, the trend toward Donk liberalism has been steady, and moderates/conservatives are trending down. As the graph shows, the combined moderate/ conservative total percentage has dropped from 73 to 47. When was the last time you even heard from the Democratic Leadership Conference? How many committee chairmanships do the “Blue Dog” Donks hold? How many “moderates” have a shot at the POTUS nomination (answer: none)? The leftists hold all the face cards in your party, and will for years to come. You should be a happy camper.

[BDKJMU]

I wish I could find the article, but it shows how what Jon said, is exactly the opposite of the truth. The left has veered further left, while the right has pretty much stayed the same.

The real irony of the article was that even though the article stated how far apart the two have become, it's visual showed it was mainly the Left.

Linky?

As someone in the mushy middle, I call BS. The Tea Party, Freedom Caucus, etc. aren't exactly bastions of inclusion & compromise. Both sides have veered away from the center and become much less tolerant of differing opinions within their own ranks. Both sides have been willing to primary a candidate that doesn't toe the line even if that means they might lose a general election as a result.

I’m calling BS on your BS. There are a # of examples where the right hasn’t veered away from the center, but the center has veered away from them. Take for example:
-Gay marriage. 25 years ago being keeping marriage between a man & woman was a centrist position. Most of the donk party was aginst gay marriage. Look at the 94’ Defense of Marriage Act. Not only did all the conks in Congress vote for it, but virtually all the donks did, too. Now being against gay marriage would be called a very right position.
-Same thing with marijuana legalization. That used to be a left position. Now its considered a centrist one.
-Immigration. Being tough on illegal immigration use to be a centrist position. Now its considered more right. Using the term “illegal immigrant” used to be used by conks and donks. There’s Youtube video of Bill Clinton giving speeches in the 90s about getting tough on illegal immigration, using the term ‘illegal immigrants’. Schumer among others gave a similar speech the early 00’s, and used the term illegal immigrant. Sounds like what a conk pol would say today. Now you never hear a donk use the term.
I could go JSO with other examples where the right hasn’t veered away from the center, but the center has veered away from the right.

[CAA Flagship]

How can you consider yourself a centrist, or close to one...

I don't think he really does deep down.

Over the years I've actually moved more to the middle. I'm not a centrist, don't pretend to be one. But I am sure that I'm far more close to the middle than Jon. He's as far left as BDK is right.

I haven't budged on my priorities over the years. In fact, as I grew older and had a better understanding of people overall, my priorities have become further cemented at the top.
But I have learned to not care about (or get in the way of) stuff that doesn't affect my top priorities.

[BDKJMU]

How can you consider yourself a centrist, or close to one...

I don't think he really does deep down.

Over the years I've actually moved more to the middle. I'm not a centrist, don't pretend to be one. But I am sure that I'm far more close to the middle than Jon. He's as far left as BDK is right.

Nope. He's further left than I am right.

[AZGrizFan]

How can you consider yourself a centrist, or close to one...

I don't think he really does deep down.

Over the years I've actually moved more to the middle. I'm not a centrist, don't pretend to be one. But I am sure that I'm far more close to the middle than Jon. He's as far left as BDK is right.

No you’re not. Because the “middle” has moved further left that you have in that time frame.

[UNI88]

Linky?

As someone in the mushy middle, I call BS. The Tea Party, Freedom Caucus, etc. aren't exactly bastions of inclusion & compromise. Both sides have veered away from the center and become much less tolerant of differing opinions within their own ranks. Both sides have been willing to primary a candidate that doesn't toe the line even if that means they might lose a general election as a result.

I’m calling BS on your BS. There are a # of examples where the right hasn’t veered away from the center, but the center has veered away from them. Take for example:
-Gay marriage. 25 years ago being keeping marriage between a man & woman was a centrist position. Most of the donk party was aginst gay marriage. Look at the 94’ Defense of Marriage Act. Not only did all the conks in Congress vote for it, but virtually all the donks did, too. Now being against gay marriage would be called a very right position.
-Same thing with marijuana legalization. That used to be a left position. Now its considered a centrist one.
-Immigration. Being tough on illegal immigration use to be a centrist position. Now its considered more right. Using the term “illegal immigrant” used to be used by conks and donks. There’s Youtube video of Bill Clinton giving speeches in the 90s about getting tough on illegal immigration, using the term ‘illegal immigrants’. Schumer among others gave a similar speech the early 00’s, and used the term illegal immigrant. Sounds like what a conk pol would say today. Now you never hear a donk use the term.
I could go JSO with other examples where the right hasn’t veered away from the center, but the center has veered away from the right.

Good points BDK but you glossed over the ideological purity test part. Can you shoot that down too? RINOs everywhere want to know.

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[kalm]

This discussion...

Wanna talk about irrelevant? Let’s start with centrists.

The center shifts. It’s a moving target unworthy of sticking to. So while some of you wear out a rotator cuff in self congratulatory back patting on being “centrist” or having your side represent the “center” more you might want to take a moment and pause.

There are valid points on both sides but why in the fuck should there only be just two sides in the first place?

E.G. Does the right to self identify as any gender you choose a liberal or conservative notion? Does insisting on other people using that pronoun in describing you a liberal or conservative idea?

I would like to think we still have principles of freedom and equal opportunity that guide us and transcend modern constructs of “left” and “right” but the pissing matches over proving the other side wrong aren’t helping.

Kalm out.

[CID1990]

This discussion...

Wanna talk about irrelevant? Let’s start with centrists.

The center shifts. It’s a moving target unworthy of sticking to. So while some of you wear out a rotator cuff in self congratulatory back patting on being “centrist” or having your side represent the “center” more you might want to take a moment and pause.

There are valid points on both sides but why in the fuck should there only be just two sides in the first place?

E.G. Does the right to self identify as any gender you choose a liberal or conservative notion? Does insisting on other people using that pronoun in describing you a liberal or conservative idea?

I would like to think we still have principles of freedom and equal opportunity that guide us and transcend modern constructs of “left” and “right” but the pissing matches over proving the other side wrong aren’t helping.

Kalm out.

Well - this is the danger of those big tents. You find yourself apologizing for some pretty goofy things... like social conservatism in the GOP or intersectionality on the Democratic side.

That's why I left the GOP and won't go back, and will never approach the Democratic Party. Neither of them are salvageable.

[89Hen]

This discussion...

Wanna talk about irrelevant? Let’s start with centrists.

The center shifts. It’s a moving target unworthy of sticking to. So while some of you wear out a rotator cuff in self congratulatory back patting on being “centrist” or having your side represent the “center” more you might want to take a moment and pause.

There are valid points on both sides but why in the fuck should there only be just two sides in the first place?

E.G. Does the right to self identify as any gender you choose a liberal or conservative notion? Does insisting on other people using that pronoun in describing you a liberal or conservative idea?

I would like to think we still have principles of freedom and equal opportunity that guide us and transcend modern constructs of “left” and “right” but the pissing matches over proving the other side wrong aren’t helping.

Kalm out.

Did you hit Mrs Kalm's weed last night?

[89Hen]

So funny how the Conks on this board get so bent out of shape for dissing, criticizing or generally disliking Donald J. Trump of all people.

So desperate for you to try to say that's what we're discussing.

[kalm]

This discussion...

Wanna talk about irrelevant? Let’s start with centrists.

The center shifts. It’s a moving target unworthy of sticking to. So while some of you wear out a rotator cuff in self congratulatory back patting on being “centrist” or having your side represent the “center” more you might want to take a moment and pause.

There are valid points on both sides but why in the fuck should there only be just two sides in the first place?

E.G. Does the right to self identify as any gender you choose a liberal or conservative notion? Does insisting on other people using that pronoun in describing you a liberal or conservative idea?

I would like to think we still have principles of freedom and equal opportunity that guide us and transcend modern constructs of “left” and “right” but the pissing matches over proving the other side wrong aren’t helping.

Kalm out.

Did you hit Mrs Kalm's weed last night?

I really should have.

I was laying out in the yard listening to tunes and looking for shooting stars. Saw two.