No doubt, America needs universal health care

[ASUMountaineer]

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

Yup, and all heartless donks want to kill unborn babies. Gross generalizations aside, the two are not interrelated as some may suggest.

[UNI88]

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

Yup, and all heartless donks want to kill unborn babies. Gross generalizations aside, the two are not interrelated as some may suggest.

Mountie, didn't think I needed a smiley but it was tongue in cheek.

The two (health care and education) might not be interrelated but they do impact each other. Reducing or increasing the government's involvement in one without considering the potential consequences on the other is reckless. While I agree that health care is not a right I also belief that access to a quality education is a not only a tremendous part of what America is all about (as the land of opportunity) it is also a strategic imperative (the American people and their work ethic and ingenuity are the country's greatest assets and should be encouraged and developed).

[AZGrizFan]

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

Note the similarity, UNI: The eduation system is all fucked up BECAUSE there's a Department of Education. Just think about that for a minute, then apply you very SURVIVAL to the thought process.

[Wedgebuster]

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

Note the similarity, UNI: The eduation system is all fucked up BECAUSE there's a Department of Education. Just think about that for a minute, then apply you very SURVIVAL to the thought process.

Same with our military, what a waste of fucking money that is. Think about how much better and less expensive it would be to turn all military operations over to private contractors, you know, like Blackwater.

[TheDancinMonarch]

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

You mean that the downtrodden, virtually all of whom are being taught by democrat voting union members, are not being provided with a quality education? I'm stunned.

[Col Hogan]

Note the similarity, UNI: The eduation system is all **** up BECAUSE there's a Department of Education. Just think about that for a minute, then apply you very SURVIVAL to the thought process.

Same with our military, what a waste of **** money that is. Think about how much better and less expensive it would be to turn all military operations over to private contractors, you know, like Blackwater.

Yep....except....Education and Health Care are not federal responsibilities...the defense of the country is...

[UNI88]

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

Note the similarity, UNI: The eduation system is all **** up BECAUSE there's a Department of Education. Just think about that for a minute, then apply you very SURVIVAL to the thought process.

I agree but IMO we need to have a viable alternative(s) before we throw out the Dept of Education. I kind of like Colonel Hogan's and others' approach to turn the money back over to the states and let them address it. If I'm rich or poor and living in a state with crappy education than I do everything I can to move to a state with a better education. The states with better education will have a better workforce, a growing job base and increased revenues as a result. Poor performing states could then copy one or more of the better performers. We would have up to 50 laboratories experimenting with different ways to provide education and the odds are that we would end up with better public education than we now have.

We could do the same thing with health care. Give more $ to the states and let them come up with the solution that is best for them. The best solutions will attract more taxpayers.

Capitalism = Competition = The American Way.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Wedgie, I'm willing to listen to your arguments but your harping on the Colonel's benefits as socialized entitlements weakens your case IMO. He is getting his benefits from a private enterprise and any "government" benefits that he might be eligible for he earned through his years of service in the armed forces. You can downplay his service but the reality is that people join for a variety of reasons despite the low pay and benefits are one of them.

Had to leave for a couple of hours and I see that you are saying the exact things that I am thinking about this. Wedge ain't focusing on the problems or the discussion and is making non sequiturr's and generalized posts about the subject and that wouldn't be his style in a true debate so I think he's getting a bit of a kick out of the rabble rousing aspect. He is "D1Bing" this thread, if you will.

That's because he's acting like an entitled *******.

I disagree. The Colonel has already stated that he doesn't have a problem with the states providing health care benefits if they so choose but he doesn't think that it is within the realm of the federal government. What you call a '"me first" attitude' could also be considered someone who wants a smaller federal government, for people to take responsibility for their own lives, etc. Both positions have their merits, which one you believe is correct depends on your perspective.

I've agreed that access to health care is a problem but you haven't convinced me that:
1) socializing it will reduce costs (at least not without quality of care ramifications)
2) the federal government could provide health care benefits to all without f**king it up worse than the private sector.

IMO, health care provided by the federal government is the lazy way out to really taking a look at the problem and coming up with a solution that will actually work.

Again 88, dead on. You're rippin' the tits off this thing.

[Wedgebuster]

Wedgie, I'm willing to listen to your arguments but your harping on the Colonel's benefits as socialized entitlements weakens your case IMO. He is getting his benefits from a private enterprise and any "government" benefits that he might be eligible for he earned through his years of service in the armed forces. You can downplay his service but the reality is that people join for a variety of reasons despite the low pay and benefits are one of them.

Had to leave for a couple of hours and I see that you are saying the exact things that I am thinking about this. Wedge ain't focusing on the problems or the discussion and is making non sequiturr's and generalized posts about the subject and that wouldn't be his style in a true debate so I think he's getting a bit of a kick out of the rabble rousing aspect. He is "D1Bing" this thread, if you will.

I disagree. The Colonel has already stated that he doesn't have a problem with the states providing health care benefits if they so choose but he doesn't think that it is within the realm of the federal government. What you call a '"me first" attitude' could also be considered someone who wants a smaller federal government, for people to take responsibility for their own lives, etc. Both positions have their merits, which one you believe is correct depends on your perspective.

I've agreed that access to health care is a problem but you haven't convinced me that:
1) socializing it will reduce costs (at least not without quality of care ramifications)
2) the federal government could provide health care benefits to all without f**king it up worse than the private sector.

IMO, health care provided by the federal government is the lazy way out to really taking a look at the problem and coming up with a solution that will actually work.

Again 88, dead on. You're rippin' the tits off this thing.

Go back to jacking off in the dumpster bear, I got all the tards on this thread lined out already and don't need the hassle of another detractor.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Had to leave for a couple of hours and I see that you are saying the exact things that I am thinking about this. Wedge ain't focusing on the problems or the discussion and is making non sequiturr's and generalized posts about the subject and that wouldn't be his style in a true debate so I think he's getting a bit of a kick out of the rabble rousing aspect. He is "D1Bing" this thread, if you will.





Again 88, dead on. You're rippin' the tits off this thing.

Go back to jacking off in the dumpster bear, I got all the tards on this thread lined out already and don't need the hassle of another detractor.

I ain't a detractor, I am a bridge builder, I build a thousand bridges and do they call me "Ursus The Bridge Builder", NO! But you suck one cock...


I seriously think that are ways to fix this and I like a little fire about it but I know you have more answers or thoughtful input than you are supplying so that leads me to believe that you are throwing the molotav cocktails for entertainment. I do think you have as many solid points as anyone on here has but UNI88 said the same thing I would have asked you so I wanted to congratulate him on his acumen.

[Wedgebuster]

Go back to jacking off in the dumpster bear, I got all the tards on this thread lined out already and don't need the hassle of another detractor.

I ain't a detractor, I am a bridge builder, I build a thousand bridges and do they call me "Ursus The Bridge Builder", NO! But you suck one cock...


I seriously think that are ways to fix this and I like a little fire about it but I know you have more answers or thoughtful input than you are supplying so that leads me to believe that you are that are you are throwing the molotav cocktails for entertainment. I do think you have as many solid points as anyone on here has but UNI88 said the same thing I would have asked you so I wanted to congratulate him on his acumen.

Well nobody likes having their "tits" ripped.

[AZGrizFan]

Note the similarity, UNI: The eduation system is all fucked up BECAUSE there's a Department of Education. Just think about that for a minute, then apply you very SURVIVAL to the thought process.

Same with our military, what a waste of fucking money that is. Think about how much better and less expensive it would be to turn all military operations over to private contractors, you know, like Blackwater.

Cept then you'd just bitch about how much money the evil corporation made and how you weren't gettin' your fair share of "defense".

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I ain't a detractor, I am a bridge builder, I build a thousand bridges and do they call me "Ursus The Bridge Builder", NO! But you suck one cock...


I seriously think that are ways to fix this and I like a little fire about it but I know you have more answers or thoughtful input than you are supplying so that leads me to believe that you are that are you are throwing the molotav cocktails for entertainment. I do think you have as many solid points as anyone on here has but UNI88 said the same thing I would have asked you so I wanted to congratulate him on his acumen.

Well nobody likes having their "tits" ripped.

You have a point there.

[Wedgebuster]

Same with our military, what a waste of fucking money that is. Think about how much better and less expensive it would be to turn all military operations over to private contractors, you know, like Blackwater.

Cept then you'd just bitch about how much money the evil corporation made and how you weren't gettin' your fair share of "defense".

Go jack off in your "whites"

[AZGrizFan]

Cept then you'd just bitch about how much money the evil corporation made and how you weren't gettin' your fair share of "defense".

Go jack off in your "whites"

that's fucking comical that you think I can even get remotely close to getting into my "whites".

[ASUMountaineer]

Yup, and all heartless donks want to kill unborn babies. Gross generalizations aside, the two are not interrelated as some may suggest.

Mountie, didn't think I needed a smiley but it was tongue in cheek.

The two (health care and education) might not be interrelated but they do impact each other. Reducing or increasing the government's involvement in one without considering the potential consequences on the other is reckless. While I agree that health care is not a right I also belief that access to a quality education is a not only a tremendous part of what America is all about (as the land of opportunity) it is also a strategic imperative (the American people and their work ethic and ingenuity are the country's greatest assets and should be encouraged and developed).

I figured it was, but as stated before I do precision guesswork, so... I don't think (even as you indicated they impact each other) it easy or practical to legislate based on the two, together. Still, what do you mean...providing health insurance or health care...two different things, but no one has clarified here, in Congress, or the President.

[catamount man]

WOW, I seriously did not expect a 9 page thread on this subject. I will state for my closing arguments is that I do NOT wish in any way to put private insurers or their competitors in any harm's way, as I do believe in a free market. I do firmly feel though that a public option should be available and the citizens should then get to choose. Some need a government option, others don't and won't. Thanks.

GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

[Col Hogan]

WOW, I seriously did not expect a 9 page thread on this subject. I will state for my closing arguments is that I do NOT wish in any way to put private insurers or their competitors in any harm's way, as I do believe in a free market. I do firmly feel though that a public option should be available and the citizens should then get to choose. Some need a government option, others don't and won't. Thanks.

GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

Nice to say....but who would pay for the gubmint option...

[TheDancinMonarch]

WOW, I seriously did not expect a 9 page thread on this subject. I will state for my closing arguments is that I do NOT wish in any way to put private insurers or their competitors in any harm's way, as I do believe in a free market. I do firmly feel though that a public option should be available and the citizens should then get to choose. Some need a government option, others don't and won't. Thanks.

GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

How does a private plan, which must at least break even financially, compete with a government plan that can establish all of the rules for both and has access to the printing press? Or in other terms your football teams can only run the ball and only up the middle between the guards. My team on the other hand can do everything you would expect from a modern team. What do you think the outcome of the game would be?

[UNI88]

I figured it was, but as stated before I do precision guesswork, so... I don't think (even as you indicated they impact each other) it easy or practical to legislate based on the two, together. Still, what do you mean...providing health insurance or health care...two different things, but no one has clarified here, in Congress, or the President.

Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean that politicians shouldn't be considering how their decisions/legislation will impact other things. They need to be as careful of the law of unintended consequences as anyone.

I hope we're talking about the government providing health insurance. Can you imagine the federal government actually being involved in providing health care? The bloated, patronage staffing that would result would be both comical and tragic. There would be three administrators for every doctor or nurse. Costs would shoot through the roof.

[ASUMountaineer]

I figured it was, but as stated before I do precision guesswork, so... I don't think (even as you indicated they impact each other) it easy or practical to legislate based on the two, together. Still, what do you mean...providing health insurance or health care...two different things, but no one has clarified here, in Congress, or the President.

Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean that politicians shouldn't be considering how their decisions/legislation will impact other things. They need to be as careful of the law of unintended consequences as anyone.

I hope we're talking about the government providing health insurance. Can you imagine the federal government actually being involved in providing health care? The bloated, patronage staffing that would result would be both comical and tragic. There would be three administrators for every doctor or nurse. Costs would shoot through the roof.

Of course they have to look out for unintended consequences, but I don't think the two should be legislated together...maybe I didn't explain that well.

Anyways, I have assumed that they (people here, Washington, and everywhere) have meant health insurance, but it is generally referred to as health care which is confusing and worrisome...especially if it's a smoke screen.

[Pwns]

Preexisting conditions don't exist in most HMO's. Get a better job (with a better HMO) or get a better education (to get a better job, with a good HMO).

We don't need to reinvent the wheel, Homer.

Wait a second. The education system is all f**ked up too and you heartless conks want to gut the Dept of Education and get the federal government out of providing education for the masses. If the downtrodden don't have access to a quality education then they can't get a better job and thus better health care. You're creating an endless cycle of despair you sneaky bastage.

D*mn straight I want to get the federal government out of education. But it's a strawman that because someone wants to abolish the department of education that somehow they are against public education altogether. All the federal government has done is waste tons of money and drive many parents, teachers, and administrators batsh^t crazy with the no child left behind act which is driving many teachers out of the teaching profession and has also driven out programs for gifted and/or highly motivated students.

As for the healthcare issue, there is no one here that would not like to have everyone in America insured. The problem is the absolute haste and carelessness that congress is going about doing this. This is a TRILLION (one thousand thousand thousand thousand) dollar decision that is being treated as casually as a bill to buy a statue for the capitol building. There hasn't been any careful consideration has to how Obama's plan will effect our economy outside of the very largest corporations. It has been rushed through congress with hardly any debate or any careful consideration. The democrats are acting like children who are taking over the grammar school - "Fwee healfcaiwe fohw evweewon!! and fwee ice cweam evwee day!" Pray to God that the republicans can build a coalition of sensible democrats in stopping this poorly conceived piece of regurgitated sh^t before it can wreak havoc on businesses and our economy.

[Appaholic]

Healthcare Is "Not a Right" and Obama's Plan Will Cost Way Beyond $1T, Ron Paul Says

Each proposal carries an estimated price tag of about $1 Trillion over the next decade. And that figure will probably balloon says Rep. Ron Paul. "They've never been right on projections of medical programs," referring to his colleagues in Congress, "they're always off by 100%, 200%. It always costs a lot more."

As you my have guessed, the independent minded Paul, is no fan of government involvement in healthcare. In this accompanying video exclusive, taped at the Capitol Hill Rotunda in Washington D.C., Paul, who is also an M.D., opens up to Aaron Task about his concerns regarding the government taking a larger role in the medical game.

As far as the Texas Congressman is concerned, healthcare is not a right. "I don't have a right to medical care," he emphatically states. In his view, the constitution only guarantees citizens "life, liberty and (the right to) keep the fruits of my labor."

Don't be mistaken, he's very clear to point out, he is in favor of all citizens receiving medical care. "I want everybody to have maximum care at the best price. And that's why I want the government out of it completely."
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/ar ... rk,pfe,unh

[Col Hogan]

Don't be mistaken, he's very clear to point out, he is in favor of all citizens receiving medical care. "I want everybody to have maximum care at the best price. And that's why I want the government out of it completely."

Clear, concise, cogent...

[dbackjon]

Don't be mistaken, he's very clear to point out, he is in favor of all citizens receiving medical care. "I want everybody to have maximum care at the best price. And that's why I want the government out of it completely."

Clear, concise, cogent...

Right, because before government got into healthcare, EVERYONE had all their medical needs attended to cheaply, quickly and fairly