US Allies: No problems with Gays in Military

[SuperHornet]

I see no reason why the world's best military should kowtow to second-rates.

So you think gays are second rate?

Or are you referring to women? Because we know athletically, women ARE second rate to men.

That's not necessarily true, Jon. Oh, sure, in terms of groups that may be true. But I defy you to substantiate the claim that individual females can't compete with individual males. For example, there's no way on God's green Earth that someone like David Spade is going to take down the likes of Crush or Chyna. I've seen MANY military women who could outperform men athletically and militarily.

My point, however, was that as the premier military force in the world, we should not be taking how-tos from forces that can't compete with us. That has absoulutely NOTHING to do with gender or preference. Perhaps we could make the decision on our own without referring to those second-rates out there. But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile.

Personally, as a former Sailor, even as one who supports more opportunities for women in the military, I'd hate to see THAT door opened. There are too many fears among straight military people. While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents.

I realize that that's a rather poor argument. There are others that can formulate a better one. But that's how I see it.

[AZGrizFan]

So you think gays are second rate?

Or are you referring to women? Because we know athletically, women ARE second rate to men.

That's not necessarily true, Jon. Oh, sure, in terms of groups that may be true. But I defy you to substantiate the claim that individual females can't compete with individual males. For example, there's no way on God's green Earth that someone like David Spade is going to take down the likes of Crush or Chyna. I've seen MANY military women who could outperform men athletically and militarily.

My point, however, was that as the premier military force in the world, we should not be taking how-tos from forces that can't compete with us. That has absoulutely NOTHING to do with gender or preference. Perhaps we could make the decision on our own without referring to those second-rates out there. But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile.

Personally, as a former Sailor, even as one who supports more opportunities for women in the military, I'd hate to see THAT door opened. There are too many fears among straight military people. While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents.

I realize that that's a rather poor argument. There are others that can formulate a better one. But that's how I see it.

If women could "outperform" men, there wouldn't be a different Physical Fitness Test standard for women in the military.

[SuperHornet]

The PFT/PRT doesn't apply to every military situation, as you well know, AZ. Women quite often have better brains. In addition, there have been MANY situations where military women HAVE outperformed males on that very test. Sure, the scores on the female charts are used for promotion in the Marine Corps and perhaps the other non-Navy services (PRT scores don't affect Navy promotion scores, though a failure does make one ineligible).

The bald statement that women can't outperform men just begs for a Crush to knock out a David Spade. Sure a girl like Crush doesn't need a complete wimp like that to disprove that inherently bogus statement, but it'll do. Sure, she probably can't beat a Ken Shamrock, but that doesn't prove the bogus assertion.

[AZGrizFan]

The PFT/PRT doesn't apply to every military situation, as you well know, AZ. Women quite often have better brains. In addition, there have been MANY situations where military women HAVE outperformed males on that very test. Sure, the scores on the female charts are used for promotion in the Marine Corps and perhaps the other non-Navy services (PRT scores don't affect Navy promotion scores, though a failure does make one ineligible).

The bald statement that women can't outperform men just begs for a Crush to knock out a David Spade. Sure a girl like Crush doesn't need a complete wimp like that to disprove that inherently bogus statement, but it'll do. Sure, she probably can't beat a Ken Shamrock, but that doesn't prove the bogus assertion.

For every "Crush" in the military there's 500 who are built like this:



There's always going to be an exception to the rule.

[Grizalltheway]

The PFT/PRT doesn't apply to every military situation, as you well know, AZ. Women quite often have better brains. In addition, there have been MANY situations where military women HAVE outperformed males on that very test. Sure, the scores on the female charts are used for promotion in the Marine Corps and perhaps the other non-Navy services (PRT scores don't affect Navy promotion scores, though a failure does make one ineligible).

The bald statement that women can't outperform men just begs for a Crush to knock out a David Spade. Sure a girl like Crush doesn't need a complete wimp like that to disprove that inherently bogus statement, but it'll do. Sure, she probably can't beat a Ken Shamrock, but that doesn't prove the bogus assertion.

For every "Crush" in the military there's 500 who are built like this:



There's always going to be an exception to the rule.

Save that for the bikini thread, man.

[Appaholic]

So you think gays are second rate?

Or are you referring to women? Because we know athletically, women ARE second rate to men.

That's not necessarily true, Jon. Oh, sure, in terms of groups that may be true. But I defy you to substantiate the claim that individual females can't compete with individual males. For example, there's no way on God's green Earth that someone like David Spade is going to take down the likes of Crush or Chyna. I've seen MANY military women who could outperform men athletically and militarily.

My point, however, was that as the premier military force in the world, we should not be taking how-tos from forces that can't compete with us. That has absoulutely NOTHING to do with gender or preference. Perhaps we could make the decision on our own without referring to those second-rates out there. But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile.

Personally, as a former Sailor, even as one who supports more opportunities for women in the military, I'd hate to see THAT door opened. There are too many fears among straight military people. While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents.

I realize that that's a rather poor argument. There are others that can formulate a better one. But that's how I see it.

First....."But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile"

Then...."While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents."

So should women be allowed to work with men even though there is the possibility they may be sexually harrased by men? Apparantly not......

[TwinTownBisonFan]

That's not necessarily true, Jon. Oh, sure, in terms of groups that may be true. But I defy you to substantiate the claim that individual females can't compete with individual males. For example, there's no way on God's green Earth that someone like David Spade is going to take down the likes of Crush or Chyna. I've seen MANY military women who could outperform men athletically and militarily.

My point, however, was that as the premier military force in the world, we should not be taking how-tos from forces that can't compete with us. That has absoulutely NOTHING to do with gender or preference. Perhaps we could make the decision on our own without referring to those second-rates out there. But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile.

Personally, as a former Sailor, even as one who supports more opportunities for women in the military, I'd hate to see THAT door opened. There are too many fears among straight military people. While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents.

I realize that that's a rather poor argument. There are others that can formulate a better one. But that's how I see it.

First....."But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile"

Then...."While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents."

So should women be allowed to work with men even though there is the possibility they may be sexually harrased by men? Apparantly not......

the incidence of sexual assault and rape in the military is alarming... and largely undiscussed

[Appaholic]

First....."But to do it merely because "everybody's doing it" is insanely juvenile"

Then...."While the vast majority of gay people would likely be smart enough to not start anything, eventually SOMEBODY's going to make a mistake, and the controversy's going to be blow WAY out of proportion. We could also see more incidents like we saw in Japan about 10 years ago, where straight Sailors bashed a suspected gay shipmate's head into a public urinal. While I can't condone THAT either, I firmly believe that a full ban is the best way to prevent these unfortunate incidents."

So should women be allowed to work with men even though there is the possibility they may be sexually harrased by men? Apparantly not......

the incidence of sexual assault and rape in the military is alarming... and largely undiscussed

Well, based upon that and using Superhornet's reasoning, we should ban women from the military since there is a chance for this sort of unfortunate incident...

[bobbythekidd]

Well, based upon that and using Superhornet's reasoning, we should ban women from the military since there is a chance for this sort of unfortunate incident...

Works for me.

[Col Hogan]

the incidence of sexual assault and rape in the military is alarming... and largely undiscussed

I'm not saying it doesn't happen....and even once is not acceptable...

But, please define "alarming"...

[TwinTownBisonFan]

the incidence of sexual assault and rape in the military is alarming... and largely undiscussed

I'm not saying it doesn't happen....and even once is not acceptable...

But, please define "alarming"...

A 2003 report financed by the Department of Defense revealed that nearly one-third of a nationwide sample of female veterans seeking health care through the V.A. said they experienced rape or attempted rape during their service. Of that group, 37 percent said they were raped multiple times, and 14 percent reported they were gang-raped.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen....and even once is not acceptable...

But, please define "alarming"...

A 2003 report financed by the Department of Defense revealed that nearly one-third of a nationwide sample of female veterans seeking health care through the V.A. said they experienced rape or attempted rape during their service. Of that group, 37 percent said they were raped multiple times, and 14 percent reported they were gang-raped.

They put themselves in that "position", if true...................so what.

You cant have it both ways. Nor should you.

[ASUMountaineer]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen....and even once is not acceptable...

But, please define "alarming"...

A 2003 report financed by the Department of Defense revealed that nearly one-third of a nationwide sample of female veterans seeking health care through the V.A. said they experienced rape or attempted rape during their service. Of that group, 37 percent said they were raped multiple times, and 14 percent reported they were gang-raped.

I am not doubting your statistics, but curious as to how they determined it. For example, a few years ago there was a very popular stat that 1 in 4 (25%) of American women have been raped. The question that was asked involved "have you ever been victim to unwanted advances?" Well, if that's the case then I'm sure all of us ugly fcuks on here have raped someone.

37% have been raped mulitple times sounds awfully high. Again, not doubting, just curious how they posed the question (or what they determine to be rape).

[dbackjon]

A 2003 report financed by the Department of Defense revealed that nearly one-third of a nationwide sample of female veterans seeking health care through the V.A. said they experienced rape or attempted rape during their service. Of that group, 37 percent said they were raped multiple times, and 14 percent reported they were gang-raped.

37% have been raped mulitple times sounds awfully high. Again, not doubting, just curious how they posed the question (or what they determine to be rape).

37% of the 33% that had claimed rape claimed multiple rapes So roughly 10% of women in the sample

[ASUMountaineer]

37% have been raped mulitple times sounds awfully high. Again, not doubting, just curious how they posed the question (or what they determine to be rape).

37% of the 33% that had claimed rape claimed multiple rapes So roughly 10% of women in the sample

Ahh, see, that's why I suck at math. (no homo) Thanks Jon.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

37% have been raped mulitple times sounds awfully high. Again, not doubting, just curious how they posed the question (or what they determine to be rape).

37% of the 33% that had claimed rape claimed multiple rapes So roughly 10% of women in the sample

and this is of female veterans SEEKING health care through the VA...

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

If they dont like it, quit joining the military.

Its that simple.

[Grizalltheway]

If they dont like it, quit joining the military.

Its that simple.

And for Alfie's latest trick, justifying rape!!

[TwinTownBisonFan]

If they dont like it, quit joining the military.

Its that simple.

And for Alfie's latest trick, justifying rape!!

wow... i'm glad i put him on "ignore" from the day he joined. I advise others do the same...

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

And for Alfie's latest trick, justifying rape!!

wow... i'm glad i put him on "ignore" from the day he joined. I advise others do the same...

Run away from the truth lib boy..............you probably have a bumper sticker on your car that says Minds are like "parachutes they only work when open"



FYI, I am not justifying rape. I condone rape in almost every possible scenario.

Just saying that if you walk into a lions den with prime rib tied around your neck except to get mauled a time or two. When you place yourself in harms way to prove a point, I wont feel sorry for you in any way.

Thats what the rest of you peacenik dogooder people from Minnesota are for.

[wkuhillhound]

And for Alfie's latest trick, justifying rape!!

wow... i'm glad i put him on "ignore" from the day he joined. I advise others do the same...

Absolutely.

[Grizalltheway]

wow... i'm glad i put him on "ignore" from the day he joined. I advise others do the same...

Run away from the truth lib boy..............you probably have a bumper sticker on your car that says Minds are like "parachutes they only work when open"



FYI, I am not justifying rape. I condone rape in almost every possible scenario.

Just saying that if you walk into a lions den with prime rib tied around your neck except to get mauled a time or two. When you place yourself in harms way to prove a point, I wont feel sorry for you in any way.

Thats what the rest of you peacenik dogooder people from Minnesota are for.

So if an attractive woman works in a mostly male office, she should expect to be raped, and not complain about it when it happens?

[bench]

wow... i'm glad i put him on "ignore" from the day he joined. I advise others do the same...

Run away from the truth lib boy..............you probably have a bumper sticker on your car that says Minds are like "parachutes they only work when open"



FYI, I am not justifying rape. I condone rape in almost every possible scenario.

Just saying that if you walk into a lions den with prime rib tied around your neck except to get mauled a time or two. When you place yourself in harms way to prove a point, I wont feel sorry for you in any way.

Thats what the rest of you peacenik dogooder people from Minnesota are for.

That word…I do not think it means what you think it means

You were aiming for "condemn" and bagged the precise opposite — well done, Wordsworth, well done, indeed

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Run away from the truth lib boy..............you probably have a bumper sticker on your car that says Minds are like "parachutes they only work when open"



FYI, I am not justifying rape. I condone rape in almost every possible scenario.

Just saying that if you walk into a lions den with prime rib tied around your neck except to get mauled a time or two. When you place yourself in harms way to prove a point, I wont feel sorry for you in any way.

Thats what the rest of you peacenik dogooder people from Minnesota are for.

That word…I do not think it means what you think it means

You were aiming for "condemn" and bagged the precise opposite — well done, Wordsworth, well done, indeed

[wkuhillhound]

Run away from the truth lib boy..............you probably have a bumper sticker on your car that says Minds are like "parachutes they only work when open"



FYI, I am not justifying rape. I condone rape in almost every possible scenario.

Just saying that if you walk into a lions den with prime rib tied around your neck except to get mauled a time or two. When you place yourself in harms way to prove a point, I wont feel sorry for you in any way.

Thats what the rest of you peacenik dogooder people from Minnesota are for.

That word…I do not think it means what you think it means

You were aiming for "condemn" and bagged the precise opposite — well done, Wordsworth, well done, indeed

Reppies in the highest order!