Fund Your own Damn Schools

[CAA Flagship]

The only way I see this working is:

The funding should only be a portion of the taxes that the taxpayer pays, meaning it won't fully pay for private school. Private schools work because of a better focus on the student (competition among private schools) AND parental oversight (skin in the game). A student's public schooling is not only paid for by the student's family's taxes, it's also paid for by their neighbors' taxes. So some of the taxes must still go to the public school system (it's the way our society is set up), but if you choose to go to private school, I think a portion of those taxes can be used for the tuition.

The private school must meet certain standards. Every private school can't be eligible. Otherwise, there will be 1000's of private schools popping up like craft breweries, many of which produce shit. Home schooling should not count towards receiving a tax voucher. If it did, we would have a lot of unqualified "teachers" popping in neighborhoods.

Religious schools should not be excluded from the program. The focus is on the core curriculum. If the school meets the core curriculum requirements, any extra teachings should not matter.

All of this said, I have no faith that our government can do any of this with a minimal degree of success.

[dbackjon]

Public schools are failing because states are starving them to death. The US works best when ALL students have good educational opportunities - that can only exist in well funded PUBLIC schools.

No tax money should go to support religious education - if that is important enough to you, pay for it yourself.

And of course, no surprise that the right-wing extremists on here would oppose public schools. Science and facts are scary to them.

Don't you have some books to burn, Baldy? Like your hero Drumpf, you seem a triggered little snowflake over strong, smart and independent women.

[GannonFan]

I too have no faith (no pun intended) that we can successfully craft such a voucher system that we'll get the funding/tax exactly right. With that being the case, other than in inner cities or similar education disaster areas, I don't see the point of vouchers at all. Or I do see the point, it is basically people with enough money already looking to have someone else pay their private school bill for them. And just like the student loan disaster, once private schools know people can pay more (since the voucher) then they'll raise their tuitions just that much more so that they can pocket that voucher in it's entirety. Even with the busing I'd say you'd have to pay the extra it would take to go to the further private school (no extra to pay if the private school is closer than the public one). I'd make that simple and say if it's in the same school district boundary no extra, if not then you have to pay the extra.

And again, I'd have some criteria for where this really matters - inner city school districts or similar. Education in most of the country is fine. But in the extreme cases where it isn't, I'm not willing to let generations of kids (mostly minority, but certainly a lot of poor whites too) continue to be churned out unprepared by crappy school districts just to protect the sanctity of public schools in those regions.

Both parties screw this up because their both right and both wrong. Democrats are against any vouchers, even in inner cities, and GOP'ers are for any and all vouchers, even for the uber-wealthy. The middle ground looks pretty obvious to me.

[UNI88]

Public schools are failing because states are starving them to death. The US works best when ALL students have good educational opportunities - that can only exist in well funded PUBLIC schools.

No tax money should go to support religious education - if that is important enough to you, pay for it yourself.

And of course, no surprise that the right-wing extremists on here would oppose public schools. Science and facts are scary to them.

Don't you have some books to burn, Baldy? Like your hero Drumpf, you seem a triggered little snowflake over strong, smart and independent women.

I substitute taught in public schools for 5 years and funding was not the problem in my district. It was a district with a majority Hispanic population with lower income level then surrounding districts. The state provided plenty of money but on average the students still struggled. Some of the anecdotal reasons:

- Culture, education isn't valued as highly in Latin American countries so immigrants weren't as involved or as interested in seeing their children succeed in school. Parental involvement and peers who are also focused on doing well is a critical factor in overall student success.

- Federal programs (No Child Left Behind, Every Student Succeeds) required too much testing and not enough teaching. They also encouraged teachers to teach to the test not to teach the students to think.

- From my first year to my last year I saw a huge change in discipline. Schools have become loath to discipline students. I understand that there are emotional and developmental issues and I worked very hard to give students with those issues the ability to succeed. But there is also a balance between having 1 student disrupt the learning of 20+ other students. That 1 student also sets a precedent by getting away with misbehavior and other students will follow. It is very difficult to be an effective teacher in that situation. The needs of that 1 student should not supercede the needs of the 20+ other students. There has to be a better solution.

- Some people would say that unions are part of the problem but I don't think that is always the case. As a substitute, I wasn't a member of the union but I worked with some of the representatives and while they wanted to protect their members interests they were also genuinely interested in what was best for the students. I'm not as sure if that is true for the leadership of some of the larger unions such as the Chicago Teachers Union (CTU). They get upset with the district for attempting to consolidate schools that are half full. They have valid points about students having to travel further especially in unsafe areas but they're also trying to keep as many teachers employed as possible with little regard to district finances.

[kalm]

Public schools are failing because states are starving them to death. The US works best when ALL students have good educational opportunities - that can only exist in well funded PUBLIC schools.

No tax money should go to support religious education - if that is important enough to you, pay for it yourself.

And of course, no surprise that the right-wing extremists on here would oppose public schools. Science and facts are scary to them.

Don't you have some books to burn, Baldy? Like your hero Drumpf, you seem a triggered little snowflake over strong, smart and independent women.

I substitute taught in public schools for 5 years and funding was not the problem in my district. It was a district with a majority Hispanic population with lower income level then surrounding districts. The state provided plenty of money but on average the students still struggled. Some of the anecdotal reasons:

- Culture, education isn't valued as highly in Latin American countries so immigrants weren't as involved or as interested in seeing their children succeed in school. Parental involvement and peers who are also focused on doing well is a critical factor in overall student success.

- Federal programs (No Child Left Behind, Every Student Succeeds) required too much testing and not enough teaching. They also encouraged teachers to teach to the test not to teach the students to think.

- From my first year to my last year I saw a huge change in discipline. Schools have become loath to discipline students. I understand that there are emotional and developmental issues and I worked very hard to give students with those issues the ability to succeed. But there is also a balance between having 1 student disrupt the learning of 20+ other students. That 1 student also sets a precedent by getting away with misbehavior and other students will follow. It is very difficult to be an effective teacher in that situation. The needs of that 1 student should not supercede the needs of the 20+ other students. There has to be a better solution.

- Some people would say that unions are part of the problem but I don't think that is always the case. As a substitute, I wasn't a member of the union but I worked with some of the representatives and while they wanted to protect their members interests they were also genuinely interested in what was best for the students. I'm not as sure if that is true for the leadership of some of the larger unions such as the Chicago Teachers Union (CTU). They get upset with the district for attempting to consolidate schools that are half full. They have valid points about students having to travel further especially in unsafe areas but they're also trying to keep as many teachers employed as possible with little regard to district finances.

The above two posts ^^^^^^^^are informative.

Another thought. Imagine all these public school urchins able to attend private schools. It would be like this day at the Bushwood CC...

Be careful what you wish for.

[css75]

Some of the best, highest performing schools in the world are in countries where tolerance, free will, natural rights, and liberty are not/not taught

Consider that children in primary schools in Shanghai and Beijing graduate at age 17 or 18 FULLY prepared to enter colleges and universities in the US. And they excel in those colleges, including some of our most prestigious ones... is STEM fields

Imagine if our own students were graduating from high school fully prepared to go to college in Beijing, completely in Mandarin, studying engineering

I have no idea what the answer is...
and it's pretty obvious neither does our present Department of Education
so whatever we do next - make it bold

Go back to the 3Rs exclusively for the first 4 grades, the foundation learned there can be expanded into other areas after basics are learned. Don’t be afraid to hold kids back a year, no social promotions. This would fix public schools

Just to reiterate, I want no government funding or interference for private schools. The only exception would be for college entrance exams and annual achievement tests.


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[SDHornet]

On the road to theocracy....



https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... %3A00%3A14

This is a complicated issue. One one hand, I don't want my tax dollars being used to fund someone's religious or other private education. On the other had, giving kids in underperforming schools the ability to find better alternatives is a good thing.

To me, a quality education system should be a strategic imperative. It's critical to America truly being the "Land of Opportunity" and to the future success of the country. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that it isn't more federal government involvement in education (No Child Left Behind and Every Student Succeeds pretty well prove that). Let's give responsibilty for education back to the states.

Good post. CA spends a significant portion of the sate budget on education and it's near the bottom compared to all other states. Throwing more money at the problem (whether it be state or fed funds) ain't gonna solve the problem.

[CAA Flagship]

Even with the busing I'd say you'd have to pay the extra it would take to go to the further private school (no extra to pay if the private school is closer than the public one). I'd make that simple and say if it's in the same school district boundary no extra, if not then you have to pay the extra.

NJ has a limit of 10 miles from house to private school. Beyond that, no dice. Not sure if you can show up at the perimeter bus stop though.

[CAA Flagship]

Democrats are against any vouchers, even in inner cities, and GOP'ers are for any and all vouchers, even for the uber-wealthy.

Regarding the wealthy, there's a max voucher value you can assign. The wealthy are likely paying a higher tax based on property value. A voucher cap will ensure a large portion of the taxes still go to public schools.

STL has about a 33% private school enrollment rate. There is a savings to the public schools that they are not attending those schools.There is a way to calculate some sort of value that could be a cap. If half of those kids decided to attend public school all of a sudden, there could be issues of space, teachers, busing, etc.

[css75]

Democrats are against any vouchers, even in inner cities, and GOP'ers are for any and all vouchers, even for the uber-wealthy.

Regarding the wealthy, there's a max voucher value you can assign. The wealthy are likely paying a higher tax based on property value. A voucher cap will ensure a large portion of the taxes still go to public schools.

STL has about a 33% private school enrollment rate. There is a savings to the public schools that they are not attending those schools.There is a way to calculate some sort of value that could be a cap. If half of those kids decided to attend public school all of a sudden, there could be issues of space, teachers, busing, etc.

Just curious, are ho e schooled kids allowed to play sports for their local school? I know when I lived in Colorado they could.


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[CAA Flagship]

Regarding the wealthy, there's a max voucher value you can assign. The wealthy are likely paying a higher tax based on property value. A voucher cap will ensure a large portion of the taxes still go to public schools.

STL has about a 33% private school enrollment rate. There is a savings to the public schools that they are not attending those schools.There is a way to calculate some sort of value that could be a cap. If half of those kids decided to attend public school all of a sudden, there could be issues of space, teachers, busing, etc.

Just curious, are ho e schooled kids allowed to play sports for their local school? I know when I lived in Colorado they could.


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Not here in STL, I don't think. But they do pool all the homeschool kids to play HS sports as a separate team. I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, they are not part of a conference I don't believe. My son has played against them in baseball. I don't think they have to follow all the State HS rules though. They had a schedule of something like 50 games while normal HS teams played a schedule in the low 20's.

[Baldy]

Wow...how insightful.

I'm speechless.

If you’d really like me to hold your hand and stroll through that Townhall piece of “independent” and “insightful” thinking, I can...

I was honestly giving you the benefit of the doubt for trolling.

I really appreciate the offer, but I am more than capable of seeing the flaws in both pieces.

Are you?

[Baldy]

Public schools are failing because states are starving them to death. The US works best when ALL students have good educational opportunities - that can only exist in well funded PUBLIC schools.

No tax money should go to support religious education - if that is important enough to you, pay for it yourself.

And of course, no surprise that the right-wing extremists on here would oppose public schools. Science and facts are scary to them.

Don't you have some books to burn, Baldy? Like your hero Drumpf, you seem a triggered little snowflake over strong, smart and independent women.

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem. Just hyper-radicalized dimwits indoctrinating kids and promoting events like climate strikes.

Quit being a drama queen. Nobody is opposing public schools. Just the idiots who run them.

Leave it you to get the vapors over strong, smart, independent women exercising their first amendment rights. Shame on you. Why do you hate America?

[Chizzang]

Public schools are failing because states are starving them to death. The US works best when ALL students have good educational opportunities - that can only exist in well funded PUBLIC schools.

No tax money should go to support religious education - if that is important enough to you, pay for it yourself.

And of course, no surprise that the right-wing extremists on here would oppose public schools. Science and facts are scary to them.

Don't you have some books to burn, Baldy? Like your hero Drumpf, you seem a triggered little snowflake over strong, smart and independent women.

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem. Just hyper-radicalized dimwits indoctrinating kids and promoting events like climate strikes.

Quit being a drama queen. Nobody is opposing public schools. Just the idiots who run them.

Leave it you to get the vapors over strong, smart, independent women exercising their first amendment rights. Shame on you. Why do you hate America?

Baldy,
There were two dozen ways to say what you said without being a total dick
and you chose being a total dick... BTW: you do get points for choosing that option though



You make strong points - and I agree with them - and I almost never agree with you
The Liberal mantra look at Europe look at Europe (except don't look at the European schools)

[CAA Flagship]

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem.

That's not enough information to make a conclusion though. Is that an adjusted number?
For example:
We have far more sports than any other country. The construction and maintenance of all the different facilities, coaches, uniforms, equipment, etc. has an impact (Basketball/volleyball/wrestling, baseball, softball, tennis, football/soccer/lacrosse/field hockey, track & field, swimming/diving, etc.)
Much of the cost is probably in salaries. Are the teachers in the US being paid more than the other countries? And where do those salaries compare to the rest of the workforce in all countries?

I'd be interested to see the background on that stat.

[kalm]

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem.

That's not enough information to make a conclusion though. Is that an adjusted number?
For example:
We have far more sports than any other country. The construction and maintenance of all the different facilities, coaches, uniforms, equipment, etc. has an impact (Basketball/volleyball/wrestling, baseball, softball, tennis, football/soccer/lacrosse/field hockey, track & field, swimming/diving, etc.)
Much of the cost is probably in salaries. Are the teachers in the US being paid more than the other countries? And where do those salaries compare to the rest of the workforce in all countries?

I'd be interested to see the background on that stat.

Good questions. And whats the spending as a percentage of GDP?

[Pwns]

I've said it before, but making international comparisons of test scores between the US and foreign countries is useless as long as we have large numbers of certain ethnic groups who are always falling behind when it comes to learning and education.

You can blame these achievement gaps on racism, culture, poverty, genetics, funding inequities, single-parent-homes, shitty neighborhoods or any combination thereof and the end result it still it makes no sense to use test scores to justify federal policies like NCLB, Common Core, universal pre-K, and other stuff that have proven to be failures.

[89Hen]

FWIW, my experience with religious schools is they are far more loving of everyone than public schools. They do NOT put up with kids bullying at all. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative MJ.

I agree that the public should not fund religious schools, but like 88 I'm torn whether you should be able to use vouchers for them. Around here, the religious schools are pretty well maxed out at capacity, so are you really funding the school with public dollars or just allowing a kid that wouldn't otherwise get to attend the school of their choice a chance?

[GannonFan]

FWIW, my experience with religious schools is they are far more loving of everyone than public schools. They do NOT put up with kids bullying at all. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative MJ.

I agree that the public should not fund religious schools, but like 88 I'm torn whether you should be able to use vouchers for them. Around here, the religious schools are pretty well maxed out at capacity, so are you really funding the school with public dollars or just allowing a kid that wouldn't otherwise get to attend the school of their choice a chance?

Kind of a broad statement there just based on personal experience, no? Religious schools where I live (PA suburbs and mostly Catholic) tend to be self-selective cliques of their own. They're not terribly diverse in terms of background, ethnicity, race, income level, faith, etc. Considering that those categories form a lot of the basis for bullying I'd say it wouldn't be terribly shocking that people aren't teasing other people for being different as those self-selected populations tend to be very uniform. Heck, around here, and I think most places, private schools aren't required to deal with kids with developmental issues or ones who have learning issues (504's). They just say tough luck and if you need that then go back to the public schools where they have such services. And if places are already at capacity (as private schools are here) why do they need more money from the public?

[89Hen]

Kind of a broad statement there just based on personal experience, no? Religious schools where I live (PA suburbs and mostly Catholic) tend to be self-selective cliques of their own. They're not terribly diverse in terms of background, ethnicity, race, income level, faith, etc. Considering that those categories form a lot of the basis for bullying I'd say it wouldn't be terribly shocking that people aren't teasing other people for being different as those self-selected populations tend to be very uniform. Heck, around here, and I think most places, private schools aren't required to deal with kids with developmental issues or ones who have learning issues (504's). They just say tough luck and if you need that then go back to the public schools where they have such services. And if places are already at capacity (as private schools are here) why do they need more money from the public?

That is why I said "FWIW my experience". Around here our Catholic schools tend to be more diverse than the other private schools. Hell, my son had a kid in his class named Jacob Goldberg who was Chinese and Catholic/Jewish.

[Baldy]

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem. Just hyper-radicalized dimwits indoctrinating kids and promoting events like climate strikes.

Quit being a drama queen. Nobody is opposing public schools. Just the idiots who run them.

Leave it you to get the vapors over strong, smart, independent women exercising their first amendment rights. Shame on you. Why do you hate America?

Baldy,
There were two dozen ways to say what you said without being a total dick
and you chose being a total dick... BTW: you do get points for choosing that option though



You make strong points - and I agree with them - and I almost never agree with you
The Liberal mantra look at Europe look at Europe (except don't look at the European schools)

I don't like to be a dick, but when dback starts hysterically hyperventilating because he's exposed to something outside of his little echo chamber, he needs a strong backhand.

[Baldy]

The US spends 35% more on primary education than the average OECD country, so money isn't the problem.

That's not enough information to make a conclusion though. Is that an adjusted number?
For example:
We have far more sports than any other country. The construction and maintenance of all the different facilities, coaches, uniforms, equipment, etc. has an impact (Basketball/volleyball/wrestling, baseball, softball, tennis, football/soccer/lacrosse/field hockey, track & field, swimming/diving, etc.)
Much of the cost is probably in salaries. Are the teachers in the US being paid more than the other countries? And where do those salaries compare to the rest of the workforce in all countries?

I'd be interested to see the background on that stat.

Good questions, but that depends on the laws in the state/county/city, etc., their funding requirements, and how they are reported. Not sure how it is in other states, but GA is pretty strict as far as spending on athletics versus education. Some of the bigger high schools have booster clubs with budgets that would be the envy of many small colleges.

Encompassing what you stated earilier, what about the people who send their kids to private schools, but have to pay school taxes anyway and other adults in similar situations...couples who don't have children, empty nesters, etc.

[GannonFan]

Encompassing what you stated earilier, what about the people who send their kids to private schools, but have to pay school taxes anyway and other adults in similar situations...couples who don't have children, empty nesters, etc.

It's like paying for good roads and proper stormwater management and sewers. It's a good investment to have good schools - it attracts good families. Plus educating the young in the community is a pretty good thing too, especially in the long term for the public at large.

[89Hen]

Encompassing what you stated earilier, what about the people who send their kids to private schools, but have to pay school taxes anyway and other adults in similar situations...couples who don't have children, empty nesters, etc.

It's like paying for good roads and proper stormwater management and sewers. It's a good investment to have good schools - it attracts good families. Plus educating the young in the community is a pretty good thing too, especially in the long term for the public at large.

I've paid taxes for schools and my kids didn't spend a single day in public schools. But that's my choice and have no problem with paying this.

HOWEVER, I do have a problem with all the helicopter parents that drive their kids to the public school on a perfectly nice day instead of putting them on the bus. I hate paying for the buses, getting stuck behind one and then having my roads jammed around schools because of all the SUV's doing drop off.

[GannonFan]

It's like paying for good roads and proper stormwater management and sewers. It's a good investment to have good schools - it attracts good families. Plus educating the young in the community is a pretty good thing too, especially in the long term for the public at large.

I've paid taxes for schools and my kids didn't spend a single day in public schools. But that's my choice and have no problem with paying this.

HOWEVER, I do have a problem with all the helicopter parents that drive their kids to the public school on a perfectly nice day instead of putting them on the bus. I hate paying for the buses, getting stuck behind one and then having my roads jammed around schools because of all the SUV's doing drop off.

You could of course always avoid the road that's in front of the schools. Google Maps shows the locations of schools generally. Just saying.