Hot Stove League: Modern Baseball HOF Ballot 2020

[JoltinJoe]

This is a pretty stacked ballot with every one of the nine players, along with Marvin Miller, all having a defensible case.

The 10 candidates for Modern Baseball Era consideration for the Class of 2020:

Dwight Evans played 19 seasons with the Red Sox and one with the Orioles, totaling 385 home runs and 1,384 RBI at the plate while winning eight Gold Glove Awards in right field. A three-time All-Star and two-time Silver Slugger Award winner, Evans posted a .370 career on-base percentage and is one of only 34 players all-time with at least 1,300 runs scored, 1,300 RBI and 1,300 walks.

Steve Garvey compiled a .294 career average over 19 major league seasons with the Dodgers and Padres, amassing 2,599 hits, 272 home runs, 1,308 RBI and 10 All-Star Game selections. He hit .338 with 11 home runs and 31 RBI in 11 postseason series, was named the 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP and won the 1981 Roberto Clemente Award. The 1974 NL Most Valuable Player, Garvey won four Gold Glove Awards and played in an NL record 1,207 straight games at first base.

Tommy John pitched 26 seasons for the Indians, White Sox, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels and A’s, finishing his career after the 1989 season with a record of 288-231 and 3.34 ERA. His 700 career starts rank eighth on the all-time list and his 4,710.1 innings rank 20th all-time. A four-time All-Star Game selection – three of which came following his groundbreaking elbow surgery in 1974 – John won the 1976 Hutch Award and 1981 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award.

Don Mattingly played 14 seasons for the Yankees, batting .307 with 222 home runs and 2,153 hits. A six-time All-Star and nine-time Gold Glove Award winner at first base, Mattingly led the American League in total bases in both 1985 and 1986, won the 1984 AL batting title, captured three Silver Slugger Awards and was named the 1985 AL Most Valuable Player.

Marvin Miller was elected as the head of the Major League Baseball Players Association in 1966 and quickly turned the union into a powerhouse. Within a decade of being named head of the union, Miller had secured free agency for the players. By the time he retired in 1982, the average player salary was approximately 10 times what it was when he took over.

Thurman Munson played for 11 seasons with the Yankees, winning the American League Rookie of the Year Award in 1970 and the American League Most Valuable Player Award in 1976. A seven-time All-Star and three-time Gold Glove Award winner, Munson is one of only two catchers in history with three consecutive seasons with at least a .300 batting average, 180 hits and 100 RBI

Dale Murphy played 18 seasons with the Braves, Phillies and Rockies, winning back-to-back National League Most Valuable Player Awards in 1982 and 1983. A seven-time All-Star, Murphy won five Gold Glove Awards and four Silver Slugger Awards in center field. Murphy finished his career with 398 home runs and 1,266 RBI.

Dave Parker compiled a .290 career average over 19 major league seasons with six teams, including 11 years in Pittsburgh and four years in Cincinnati, and amassed 339 home runs, 1,493 RBI and two batting titles (1977-78). The 1978 NL Most Valuable Player was named to seven All-Star games and won three Gold Glove Awards in right field

Ted Simmons played for 21 seasons, totaling a .285 batting average, 2,472 hits, 483 doubles, 248 home runs and 1,389 RBI primarily as a catcher for the Cardinals, Brewers and Braves. An eight-time All-Star, he garnered MVP votes seven times in his career and finished among his league’s top 10 players in batting average six times

Lou Whitaker played 19 seasons, all with the Tigers, compiling 2,369 hits, 244 home runs and 1,197 walks. A five-time All-Star and four-time Silver Slugger Award winner, Whitaker won three Gold Glove Awards for his play at second base. The 1978 American League Rookie of the Year, Whitaker never played a game in the field at any position other than second base.

[93henfan]

I thought Tommy John was a surgeon?

[JoltinJoe]

I thought Tommy John was a surgeon?

Ok, Mr. Smarty Under-Pants.

[93henfan]

I guess the thing that strikes me is how long it takes for people to be considered for the baseball HOF. Wow, Munson died when I was 8 I think. And all these guys have been retired for a looooong time. Mattingly and Murphy may be the youngest of the group.

[JoltinJoe]

I think the guy most likely to get the nod is Munson.

New defensive metrics and analytics now exist that now more completely document his overall value as a full-time catcher who was superlative defensively. He is on an upswing with the baseball analysts. On the most reputable Hall of Fame blogs, Munson's candidacy is quickly gaining steam.

Averaged WAR/162 of 5.25! And he did that pretty much exclusively as a catcher. He is literally one of the most valuable catchers of all-time.

For comparison:

Simmons WAR/162: 3.31
Fisk WAR/162: 4.44
Bench WAR/162: 5.64
Carter WAR/162: 4.94
Piazza WAR/162: 5.05

On top of this, Munson had 46 hits in post-season 30 games, which works out to a staggering 248 hits over 162 games. There can't be many players with 30+ postseason games who performed that well.

[CAA Flagship]

I guess the thing that strikes me is how long it takes for people to be considered for the baseball HOF. Wow, Munson died when I was 8 I think. And all these guys have been retired for a looooong time. Mattingly and Murphy may be the youngest of the group.

This isn't what you are thinking. This is the revised "Veterans Committee" vote. This isn't the most recent eligible players.

Well, they don’t call it the “Veterans Committee” anymore, but it basically is. For the past several years they’ve gone with an era-system which rotates every year, and this year’s era is the “Modern Baseball” era, covering candidates who made their mark between 1970-1987. Or, at the very least, the biggest part of their mark given that there will always be some overlap. People still call it the “Veterans Committee” though.

https://sports.yahoo.com/lou-whitaker-l ... 54220.html

[93henfan]

I guess the thing that strikes me is how long it takes for people to be considered for the baseball HOF. Wow, Munson died when I was 8 I think. And all these guys have been retired for a looooong time. Mattingly and Murphy may be the youngest of the group.

This isn't what you are thinking. This is the revised "Veterans Committee" vote. This isn't the most recent eligible players.

Well, they don’t call it the “Veterans Committee” anymore, but it basically is. For the past several years they’ve gone with an era-system which rotates every year, and this year’s era is the “Modern Baseball” era, covering candidates who made their mark between 1970-1987. Or, at the very least, the biggest part of their mark given that there will always be some overlap. People still call it the “Veterans Committee” though.

https://sports.yahoo.com/lou-whitaker-l ... 54220.html

So this is the second chance list for guys who weren't super. I nominate John Kruk.

[CAA Flagship]

Dale Murphy is a tough one. He was great for a decent stretch. But after age 31 he was blah. Overall, he was a .265 hitter. But for a stretch of 6 years he was damn good. When you think of HOF'ers, you expect them to have great years 10 years apart. He didn't.

[JoltinJoe]

[quote="JoltinJoe"]I think the guy most likely to get the nod is Munson.

New defensive metrics and analytics now exist that now more completely document his overall value as a full-time catcher who was superlative defensively. He is on an upswing with the baseball analysts. On the most reputable Hall of Fame blogs, Munson's candidacy is quickly gaining steam.

Averaged WAR/162 of 5.25! And he did that pretty much exclusively as a catcher. He is literally one of the most valuable catchers of all-time.

For comparison:

Simmons WAR/162: 3.31
Fisk WAR/162: 4.44
Bench WAR/162: 5.64
Carter WAR/162: 4.94
Piazza WAR/162: 5.05

On top of this, Munson had 46 hits in post-season 30 games, which works out to a staggering 248 hits over 162 games. There can't be many players with 30+ postseason games who performed that well.[/And for Gil:
Mauer WAR/162: 4.79

[89Hen]

Steve Garvey compiled a .294 career average over 19 major league seasons with the Dodgers and Padres, amassing 2,599 hits, 272 home runs, 1,308 RBI and 10 All-Star Game selections. He hit .338 with 11 home runs and 31 RBI in 11 postseason series, was named the 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP and won the 1981 Roberto Clemente Award. The 1974 NL Most Valuable Player, Garvey won four Gold Glove Awards and played in an NL record 1,207 straight games at first base.

I'm no baseball guy, but how does that resume not get in?

[JoltinJoe]

Steve Garvey compiled a .294 career average over 19 major league seasons with the Dodgers and Padres, amassing 2,599 hits, 272 home runs, 1,308 RBI and 10 All-Star Game selections. He hit .338 with 11 home runs and 31 RBI in 11 postseason series, was named the 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP and won the 1981 Roberto Clemente Award. The 1974 NL Most Valuable Player, Garvey won four Gold Glove Awards and played in an NL record 1,207 straight games at first base.

I'm no baseball guy, but how does that resume not get in?

Garvey got some bad press after his playing days with his divorce situation. Don’t remember the specifics but his personal rep took a beating. I think that hurt him in his initial voting years and then he never re-gained support after that.

I think these committees are supposed to rectify errors like this one. He’s got my support for what it’s worth.

[GannonFan]

I went Munson, Miller, Garvey, and Evans. I forgot Evans didn't make it in the first time, he was a stud of an OF'er back in the day.

[JoltinJoe]

I think the guy most likely to get the nod is Munson.

New defensive metrics and analytics now exist that now more completely document his overall value as a full-time catcher who was superlative defensively. He is on an upswing with the baseball analysts. On the most reputable Hall of Fame blogs, Munson's candidacy is quickly gaining steam.

Averaged WAR/162 of 5.25! And he did that pretty much exclusively as a catcher. He is literally one of the most valuable catchers of all-time.

For comparison:

Simmons WAR/162: 3.31
Fisk WAR/162: 4.44
Bench WAR/162: 5.64
Carter WAR/162: 4.94
Piazza WAR/162: 5.05

On top of this, Munson had 46 hits in post-season 30 games, which works out to a staggering 248 hits over 162 games. There can't be many players with 30+ postseason games who performed that well.

And for Gil:
Mauer WAR/162: 4.79

[Gil Dobie]

I like them all. The all had great careers, not good, not very good, but great careers.

[Ivytalk]

I think Mattingly and Munson get in on their numbers alone. I also picked Simmons, who was overshadowed by Johnny Bench but had a higher career batting average.

[css75]

Also, can anyone explain the hate for Maury Wills, he brought back the stolen base.

No on Tommy John, he was good not great, his numbers were accrued solely by longevity.

Dale Murphy no, had 3-5 good years, rest not so much.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[AZGrizFan]

Also, can anyone explain the hate for Maury Wills, he brought back the stolen base.

No on Tommy John, he was good not great, his numbers were accrued solely by longevity.

Dale Murphy no, had 3-5 good years, rest not so much.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

His longevity actually HURTS his overall numbers. He went 55-70 AFTER age 40... He was a 3-time 20 game winner. He had FORTY SIX shutouts and 162 compete games. ONE HUNDRED and SIXTY TWO!! There are entire teams that don’t have that many in 20 years. NINE years with an ERA under 3.00. Never had an ERA over 4.00 before age 40...only one year UNDER 4.00 after age 40.

[SDHornet]

Also, can anyone explain the hate for Maury Wills, he brought back the stolen base.

No on Tommy John, he was good not great, his numbers were accrued solely by longevity.

Dale Murphy no, had 3-5 good years, rest not so much.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

His longevity actually HURTS his overall numbers. He went 55-70 AFTER age 40... He was a 3-time 20 game winner. He had FORTY SIX shutouts and 162 compete games. ONE HUNDRED and SIXTY TWO!! There are entire teams that don’t have that many in 20 years. NINE years with an ERA under 3.00. Never had an ERA over 4.00 before age 40...only one year UNDER 4.00 after age 40.

And yet all I know him for is the surgery named after him.

Spoiler: show

This is the guy the surgery is named after, right?

[Ivytalk]

His longevity actually HURTS his overall numbers. He went 55-70 AFTER age 40... He was a 3-time 20 game winner. He had FORTY SIX shutouts and 162 compete games. ONE HUNDRED and SIXTY TWO!! There are entire teams that don’t have that many in 20 years. NINE years with an ERA under 3.00. Never had an ERA over 4.00 before age 40...only one year UNDER 4.00 after age 40.

And yet all I know him for is the surgery named after him.

Spoiler: show

This is the guy the surgery is named after, right?

No. As JoltinJoe said, he’s the Internet underwear manufacturer. The brother of JimmyJohn the sandwich guy.

[Gil Dobie]

And yet all I know him for is the surgery named after him.

Spoiler: show

This is the guy the surgery is named after, right?

No. As JoltinJoe said, he’s the Internet underwear manufacturer. The brother of JimmyJohn the sandwich guy.

Brother Elton can hum a few bars.

[JoltinJoe]

I think Mattingly and Munson get in on their numbers alone. I also picked Simmons, who was overshadowed by Johnny Bench but had a higher career batting average.

As for Munson/Simmons.

No stat metric is perfect. WAR itself significantly shortchanges catchers, i.e., it fails to measure many of the things a good catcher must do (things at which Munson generally excelled). However, when measuring catcher v. catcher, WAR/162 is a highly legitimate and highly relevant metric, to account for the facts: (I) that catchers usually player fewer of the 162 games in a season than other field players do; and (ii) catchers tend to have shorter careers. Re: WAR/162, I'm not saying it's the only stat that matters, but how can you ignore the all-time list?

WAR/162 (Catchers, 1,000 games caught): (1) Cochrane HOF. 5.69, (2) Bench HOF. 5.65 (3) Munson. 5.25, (4) Dickey HOF. 5.05, (5) Piazza HOF. 5.05, (6) Carter HOF. 4.95, (7) Campanella HOF. (8) Berra HOF. 4.54. (9) Fisk HOF. 4.44, (10) Rodriguez HOF. 4.38, (11) Hartnett HOF. 4.35).

I mean that's an amazing group of catchers there. Munson is 3rd all-time, and he's the only guy not in the Hall on that list. Yes, a tragically short career, but one that was historically brilliant while it lasted. When I look at this ballot, I see nine players who have a legitimate case for the Hall. However, Munson's case is the only one which stands out as compelling in historical context, when measured against the truly all-time greats at their respective positions. There is no player on this ballot who nestles in more comfortably with the truly all-time greats at their respective positions than Munson does. In my judgment, that makes his case the best one on this ballot.

I know the knock on WAR/162 is that it is a "rate stat" that can decline due to later, less productive seasons, and that Munson had no such decline. But even if you extend Munson's 11 year career, and add 135 games per year (a lot of games for a catcher in his mid-30s) for another four seasons; while adding only a mere 2 WAR per season; he is, at 4.45, still ahead of Fisk and all others behind Fisk on that list. And still WAY ahead of Ted Simmons, his head-to-head competitor on this ballot. Heck, don't even add the additional 8 WAR total for the additional four seasons. Add four zero seasons of 135 games, and Munson comes in at 3.80, still nearly .5 ahead of Simmons (3.31). And don't get me wrong. I think Simmons has a legitimate case for the Hall.

[Gil Dobie]

I think Mattingly and Munson get in on their numbers alone. I also picked Simmons, who was overshadowed by Johnny Bench but had a higher career batting average.

As for Munson/Simmons.

No stat metric is perfect. WAR itself significantly shortchanges catchers, i.e., it fails to measure many of the things a good catcher must do (things at which Munson generally excelled). However, when measuring catcher v. catcher, WAR/162 is a highly legitimate and highly relevant metric, to account for the facts: (I) that catchers usually player fewer of the 162 games in a season than other field players do; and (ii) catchers tend to have shorter careers. Re: WAR/162, I'm not saying it's the only stat that matters, but how can you ignore the all-time list?

WAR/162 (Catchers, 1,000 games caught): (1) Cochrane HOF. 5.69, (2) Bench HOF. 5.65 (3) Munson. 5.25, (4) Dickey HOF. 5.05, (5) Piazza HOF. 5.05, (6) Carter HOF. 4.95, (7) Campanella HOF. (8) Berra HOF. 4.54. (9) Fisk HOF. 4.44, (10) Rodriguez HOF. 4.38, (11) Hartnett HOF. 4.35).

I mean that's an amazing group of catchers there. Munson is 3rd all-time, and he's the only guy not in the Hall on that list. Yes, a tragically short career, but one that was historically brilliant while it lasted. When I look at this ballot, I see nine players who have a legitimate case for the Hall. However, Munson's case is the only one which stands out as compelling in historical context, when measured against the truly all-time greats at their respective positions. There is no player on this ballot who nestles in more comfortably with the truly all-time greats at their respective positions than Munson does. In my judgment, that makes his case the best one on this ballot.

I know the knock on WAR/162 is that it is a "rate stat" that can decline due to later, less productive seasons, and that Munson had no such decline. But even if you extend Munson's 11 year career, and add 135 games per year (a lot of games for a catcher in his mid-30s) for another four seasons; while adding only a mere 2 WAR per season; he is, at 4.45, still ahead of Fisk and all others behind Fisk on that list. And still WAY ahead of Ted Simmons, his head-to-head competitor on this ballot. Heck, don't even add the additional 8 WAR total for the additional four seasons. Add four zero seasons of 135 games, and Munson comes in at 3.80, still nearly .5 ahead of Simmons (3.31). And don't get me wrong. I think Simmons has a legitimate case for the Hall.

Munson only caught over 130 games 3 times in his career. He was on the verge of playing more outfield, DH etc. It's not negative, it's just a fact about catchers. Tough to catch that many games in a season. Yogi Berra only did it 7 times, he was the left fielder watching Mazeroski's Home Run in the 1960 World Series. Johnny Bench 7 times.

[Gil Dobie]

Also, can anyone explain the hate for Maury Wills, he brought back the stolen base.

No on Tommy John, he was good not great, his numbers were accrued solely by longevity.

Dale Murphy no, had 3-5 good years, rest not so much.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wills is more deserving than Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese.

Dale Murphy had 6 seasons over 30 HR's, 12 over 20, would have been 13 straight had it not been for the 1981 baseball strike, 2 x MVP. Had over 100 RBI's 5 times, Mickey Mantle only had 4 years over 100 RBI. 398 total home runs, 36 home runs 30 stolen bases in 1983. 7 x All Star, 5 x Gold Glove, 4 x Silver Slugger.

[CAA Flagship]

And yet all I know him for is the surgery named after him.

Spoiler: show

This is the guy the surgery is named after, right?

No. As JoltinJoe said, he’s the Internet underwear manufacturer. The brother of JimmyJohn the sandwich guy.

[CAA Flagship]

Wills is more deserving than Phil Rizzuto