Why Trump Will Win Again

[UNI88]

That’s a lot of word salad right there

America is no different from France or South Africa in terms of its people... we aren’t special as a group of folks

America is precisely an idea - founded on the principles of The Enlightenment - which recognizes that governments exist to protect and guarantee the natural rights of man

It is an idea that continues to attract those “huddled masses” to our shores... in spite of our garbage, broken system

If I had a nickel every time you popped up to applaud some Maoist getting it exactly wrong on this board I’d retire already

There are maoists on this board? Ooooh...that’s sounds downright scary!

I get what your point is and agree that rights transcend nationality but that doesn’t invalidate Tripp’s defense. What is mentioned first in the Preamble and the Constitution...people or ideas?

Our system is broken, Trip provided a damn good reply.

Here’s your nickel.

As CID and Chizzy posted, our system is flawed not broken. Those flaws are also part of what makes it work.

Take away all of the flaws that Trip wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the left and while Trip will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now. Take away the flaws that someone like BDK wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the right and while BDK will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now.

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[∞∞∞]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

[Ivytalk]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without also saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't really know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

How quaint. Trips wants to take us back to the halcyon days of the Articles of Confederation.

And he doesn’t believe in the principle of judicial review, nor does he appreciate being “randomly born into” a republic governed by a Constitution that he didn’t write. Nihilism, pure and simple. That’s the Trippsian philosophy of guvmint.

And, by the way, *tenets.

[∞∞∞]

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Funny thing is that philosophically, I'm probably more small-government than all of these cons combined. Yet they think I'm big govt 'cause I argue taxes should be spent on society helping itself.

But apparently tax breaks, militarization, and corporate hand-outs means we're a freer society; and a society which uses its own capital to benefit itself is stomping on the ideals of liberty.

And here comes CID with his boring argument that "socialism leads to murder."

[Ivytalk]

How quaint. Trips wants to take us back to the halcyon days of the Articles of Confederation.

And he doesn’t believe in the principle of judicial review, nor does he appreciate being “randomly born into” a republic governed by a Constitution that he didn’t write. Nihilism, pure and simple. That’s the Trippsian philosophy of guvmint.

And, by the way, *tenets.

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

What a surprise: Jearf chiming in with non-substantive profanity.

[kalm]

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Funny thing is that philosophically, I'm probably more small-government than all of these cons combined. Yet they think I'm big govt 'cause I argue taxes should be spent on society helping itself.

But apparently tax breaks, militarization, and corporate hand-outs means we're a freer society; and a society which uses its own capital to benefit itself is stomping on the ideals of liberty.

And here comes CID with his boring argument that "socialism leads to murder."

[BDKJMU]

Why don’t you draft a better one, then? Design a system that is ideally small-d democratic (at least as you define the term) and guards against both “the tyranny of the minority or majority.” Show your work.

Oh I would love to see that.

The cover would look something like this:

[BDKJMU]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

Oh how quaint. Just like there was the USSR, we’d have the ‘USSA’

[Ivytalk]

What a surprise: Jearf chiming in with non-substantive profanity.

It figures you would think that post was "profanity".

You have elevated profanity into an art form on this forum. The hallmark of a simple mind.

[kalm]

There are maoists on this board? Ooooh...that’s sounds downright scary!

I get what your point is and agree that rights transcend nationality but that doesn’t invalidate Tripp’s defense. What is mentioned first in the Preamble and the Constitution...people or ideas?

Our system is broken, Trip provided a damn good reply.

Here’s your nickel.

As CID and Chizzy posted, our system is flawed not broken. Those flaws are also part of what makes it work.

Take away all of the flaws that Trip wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the left and while Trip will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now. Take away the flaws that someone like BDK wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the right and while BDK will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now.

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Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

[∞∞∞]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

[93henfan]

increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people

Hmmm.

You ought to go check this out. My afternoon bus passes right by it. Easily accessible from Union Station metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_Memorial

[UNI88]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

How much did communism really increase their standard of living?

When did the government stop taking care of its own? I would argue that it started with Stalin in the 20's or 30's. Did not taking care of their own take 60 years to bring about the downfall of the USSR?

What communism did for the USSR is a drop in the bucket compared to what capitalism has done for the USA and for the world.

[kalm]

increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people

Hmmm.

You ought to go check this out. My afternoon bus passes right by it. Easily accessible from Union Station metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_Memorial

Hey...it takes a broken egg (or a few million) to make an omelette.

[93henfan]

Hey...it takes a broken egg (or a few million) to make an omelette.

I lol'ed.

[∞∞∞]

How much did communism really increase their standard of living?

When did the government stop taking care of its own? I would argue that it started with Stalin in the 20's or 30's. Did not taking care of their own take 60 years to bring about the downfall of the USSR?

What communism did for the USSR is a drop in the bucket compared to what capitalism has done for the USA and for the world.

Sure, I don't disagree with anything you said.

I'm simply stating that communism took a society from nothing to a superpower. It's certainly not an efficient economic model, or one that's contributed more to the modern world than capitalism.

[93henfan]

Did communism develop the food production techniques, the medical breakthroughs, the technology that capitalism did in the past 150 or so years?

[∞∞∞]

increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people

Hmmm.

You ought to go check this out. My afternoon bus passes right by it. Easily accessible from Union Station metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_Memorial

I don't argue communism is way more prone to genocidal tendencies; that's my main beef with it. It's very idealistic and doesn't mesh with how humans actually act.

But let's not pretend capitalism can't be as dark; the preventable deaths are simply more...passive.

[SuperHornet]

I wonder if Pelosi/Schiff/Boxer/Feinstein et. al. will all have coronaries after their bogus coup fails and Trump wins again....

[Winterborn]

Hmmm.

You ought to go check this out. My afternoon bus passes right by it. Easily accessible from Union Station metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_Memorial

Hey...it takes a broken egg (or a few million) to make an omelette.

A single death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic. - Joseph Stalin

[Winterborn]

How quaint. Trips wants to take us back to the halcyon days of the Articles of Confederation.

And he doesn’t believe in the principle of judicial review, nor does he appreciate being “randomly born into” a republic governed by a Constitution that he didn’t write. Nihilism, pure and simple. That’s the Trippsian philosophy of guvmint.

And, by the way, *tenets.

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Maybe you should try reading a book instead of just coloring in it. Everybody can learn the same information if they want. Even us folks in fly-over country have the same opportunities as the Ivy folks....


The Articles of Confederation were a mess and led to next to nothing getting done. Each state had their own interests that they were looking out for and the bigger picture (as a whole) was rarely considered unless it happened to help a particular state or two out. Trying to get a consensus on anything was extreamly difficult.

[CID1990]

America IS an idea.. the first and last nation born of the ideals of the Enlightenment

America is nothing if not an “idea”... the “people” come and go and change over time

Ideas and people are explicitly tied together, so you can't say the people come and go and change over time without saying the idea of America changes over time. If you believe in the ideals of the Enlightenment, you have to acknowledge the main tenants: liberty, self-governance, and progress.

Liberty is not me and my friends being forced by you and your friends to follow an idea (the Constitution) that I was born randomly into, nor had any say into creating, nor do I agree with.

Self-governance is not a community in the New York region imposing their will on the communities of the Dakotas. We can sit here and argue big/small central governments, but ultimately the current Constitution ties vastly different societies to one another and gives us an excuse to impose our wills on each.

And then on top of that, it severely restricts progress with how our Judicial and Legislative systems work. Judicially, it allows past generations to "check" a current generation's ideas. Legislatively, it allows conservative societies to "check" progressive societies.

Besides the idea that all men are created equally, it really does nothing to actually advance the tenants of the Enlightenment from a practical perspective. I'd argue it does the opposite.

What's the fix? I don't know, but I'd be open to the idea of many centralized governments instead of one, with an agreement of free trade and no movement/citizenship restrictions between each. Basically, it'd be a "Union of States" instead of a "United States." I think that's more in-line with Enlightenment ideals.

You just described a scenario where someone doesn’t like the country they were born in and decides to immigrate to a more suitable one.

We are a representative Republic. That is only a problem when it produces results you don’t like.

[CID1990]

Oh what a surprise.....and elitist Ivy prick shooting someone else's opinion down because it doesn't jive with his agenda of concentrated wealth and power. Shocker!

Funny thing is that philosophically, I'm probably more small-government than all of these cons combined. Yet they think I'm big govt 'cause I argue taxes should be spent on society helping itself.

But apparently tax breaks, militarization, and corporate hand-outs means we're a freer society; and a society which uses its own capital to benefit itself is stomping on the ideals of liberty.

And here comes CID with his boring argument that "socialism leads to murder."

I’m not responding to all those stacked straw men you just tried

Oft repeated history is my evidence

[Baldy]

I'm not a fan, but communism transformed a poor agrarian society into an industrial/military superpower, and increased the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people.

The USSR's downfall wasn't simply communism, but a government which stopped taking care of its own and bankrupted itself with corruption and a military complex. It's not like capitalist/socialist/feudal societies haven't suffered the same fates either, just never at the scale of the USSR.

The lesson isn't necessarily "capitalism > communism," but that people should take care of the community first instead of themselves. When greed and corruption go unchecked, societies crumble.

If only society would come together as one and help each other...

You know, collectivist societies of all types have been tried over several millennia. There is a reason none of them have worked. As any writing from Aristotle, Plato, Locke, or Freud on this subject will tell you, collectivism goes against basic human nature. Just like any other animal, self preservation is the essence of one's existence...the desire and need to provide for themselves and their family.

As been shown time and time again, the only way to achieve this version of your sick Utopia is by force.

[CID1990]

As CID and Chizzy posted, our system is flawed not broken. Those flaws are also part of what makes it work.

Take away all of the flaws that Trip wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the left and while Trip will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now. Take away the flaws that someone like BDK wants gone and the balance will shift too far to the right and while BDK will be happy, it won't work as well as it does now.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Oh you old centrist windbag...you’ve just moved ahead of Ganny!

I don’t care about ideology in this argument. CID and other conks bring it up to use in their put downs of Trip (which he just spiked out of the gym above)

The center is a moving target at the least if not a myth. Freedom (and governmental policy) transcend it.

EG: a necessitous man is not a free man. Lack of competition is the end result of pure capitalism (ironically the same as socialism).

That time the “thoughtful moderate” embraced radical structural change


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