Top 5 presidents

[Ibanez]

1. Washington
2. Jefferson
3. Lincoln
4. Tie: Roosevelt's
5. Eisenhower? Reagan? Grant? There are a few deserving this spot.



My bottom 5
1. Buchanan
2. Trump
3. Johnson
4. Harding
5. Pierce

[∞∞∞]

I think top president lists are silly because basically any president who presides through a crisis gets high marks even if it could've been handled better.

Bush II enters the chat.

I still consider him worse than Trump, and just (barely) below Jackson.

[Ibanez]

I think top president lists are silly because basically any president who presides through a crisis gets high marks even if it could've been handled better.

You basically have to believe that there's some mystical force ensuring we have one of our best presidents whenever there's a major crisis and assume we got among the better possible outcomes for the crisis.

I consider Abraham Lincoln among the worst ever because he is responsible for a needlessly long and bloody conflict that cost 600,000 lives.

Andrew Johnson had a major crisis, could've handled it better and is still one of the worst.

[AZGrizFan]

1. Washington
2. Jefferson
3. Lincoln
4. Tie: Roosevelt's
5. Eisenhower? Reagan? Grant? There are a few deserving this spot.



My bottom 5
1. Buchanan
2. Trump
3. Johnson
4. Harding
5. Pierce

Those tweets, right?

[AZGrizFan]

Spent the weekend in L.A. On Sunday we went to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library.

Can't think of a better place to spend a day on Presidents Day weekend.

1) Reagan
2) Truman
3) Washington
4) Jefferson
5) Trump

[Ibanez]

1. Washington
2. Jefferson
3. Lincoln
4. Tie: Roosevelt's
5. Eisenhower? Reagan? Grant? There are a few deserving this spot.



My bottom 5
1. Buchanan
2. Trump
3. Johnson
4. Harding
5. Pierce

Those tweets, right?

No. I think he's an amoral, low character person who only cares for himself and his image. He uses childish insults instead of substance to gain advantage over his opponents and he appeals to the lowest common denominator. Regardless of any short term financial gain, I think he's done harm to our image, reputation and the office of the President.

[AZGrizFan]

Those tweets, right?

No. I think he's an amoral, low character person who only cares for himself and his image. He uses childish insults instead of substance to gain advantage over his opponents and he appeals to the lowest common denominator. Regardless of any short term financial gain, I think he's done harm to our image, reputation and the office of the President.

For a supposed historian, you sure don't know much about how the presidency operated in the early years....

[Ibanez]

No. I think he's an amoral, low character person who only cares for himself and his image. He uses childish insults instead of substance to gain advantage over his opponents and he appeals to the lowest common denominator. Regardless of any short term financial gain, I think he's done harm to our image, reputation and the office of the President.

For a supposed historian, you sure don't know much about how the presidency operated in the early years....

That's a weak argument, even for you.
I'm aware of the good and the bad. I'm aware his antics aren't new in politics. During Andrew Jackson's campaign, the opposition said horrible, awful things about his wife. Called her a prostitute, bigamist, etc... It caused so much stress that Rachel had a heart attack and died. I'm not saying it was better and I don't know what I said to make you believe that. I'm not sure how that makes it acceptable in 2020. That isn't the point. Trump is unscrupulous. And if you'll accept this behavior, I can't wait for a Democrat to do the same thing so the GOP can sit and hypocritically clutch their pearls. We shouldn't expect perfection from our leaders, but we should hold them to a higher standard since they are the stewards of our government.

"It's ok to act like a child, someone else did it in 1828." Give me a break.

[GannonFan]

Any list without Washington on it is just sheer lunacy. Without his leadership and example this very fragile thing that was the United States would likely never exist, and that's not even counting the work he did in the lead-up to becoming the first President. Almost by sheer force of will he made this a nation that would still be here almost 250 years later. So, with that in mind, and in no order though:

Washington
Lincoln
FDR
Truman
Grant

Grant was the pre-Trump Trump. Giving positions to his friends etc. What a terrible choice.

If you honestly think Grant was anything like Trump then you're almost disqualified from this conversation. You could argue that he overlooked or didn't see corruption in his own government, but the two men couldn't be any further apart in terms of, well, almost anything else.

You should read up more on Grant. His efforts to protect and promote racial equality during Reconstruction, while ultimately unsuccessful in light of the incredible amount of racism throughout the country at the time, were incredibly admirable. He stayed firm and really crushed the first version of the Klan, the First National Park (Yellowstone) came into existence under Grant, and he created the first Civil Service Commission. Unfortunately, the country wasn't ready for the kind of civil rights Grant was trying to bring about and a lot of negative stuff about Grant that was sometimes inflated or made up by the Lost Cause has sullied his reputation to this day. The fact that he did so much (15th amendment for instance) in the face of so much resistance gets him on my list.

[GannonFan]

FDR is the single biggest shitbag in American history and I am including Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and Hillary on the list.

He fucked this country into 90% of the problems we currently have with his safety net bullshit. Fucking freeloader

But, of course, saw WWII coming and put us in position to win that war, defeat Nazism and imperial Japan, and be placed to be the greatest superpower in the world for the next century. So all in all, that's a count on the plus side, no?

[UNI88]

Abraham Lincoln
Franklin D. Roosevelt
James K. Polk
Barack Obama
Calvin Coolidge

Why do you have CC so high? He usually ranks in the bottom 20.

He made Cid's list too.

[Ibanez]

Why do you have CC so high? He usually ranks in the bottom 20.

He made Cid's list too.

I find it interesting that someone like Trip thinks a small government Republican is one the Top 5.

[Ibanez]

Grant was the pre-Trump Trump. Giving positions to his friends etc. What a terrible choice.

If you honestly think Grant was anything like Trump then you're almost disqualified from this conversation. You could argue that he overlooked or didn't see corruption in his own government, but the two men couldn't be any further apart in terms of, well, almost anything else.

You should read up more on Grant. His efforts to protect and promote racial equality during Reconstruction, while ultimately unsuccessful in light of the incredible amount of racism throughout the country at the time, were incredibly admirable. He stayed firm and really crushed the first version of the Klan, the First National Park (Yellowstone) came into existence under Grant, and he created the first Civil Service Commission. Unfortunately, the country wasn't ready for the kind of civil rights Grant was trying to bring about and a lot of negative stuff about Grant that was sometimes inflated or made up by the Lost Cause has sullied his reputation to this day. The fact that he did so much (15th amendment for instance) in the face of so much resistance gets him on my list.

Nope, Grant has numerous affairs, closed the borders, greatly expanded the size of the government. He was a butcher of men!

Scandals? Sure. But that goes to one of the biggest character flaws Grant had - he was extremely naive. A common theme in his life were people taking advantage of his kindness and generosity (and his position) in order to enrich themselves.

[∞∞∞]

He made Cid's list too.

I find it interesting that someone like Trip thinks a small government Republican is one the Top 5.

That's 'cause I actually believe in an efficient, small government that works for the people. Time and time again, people confuse my prioritization of social programs with "big" government, when big government is actually bloat from defense contractors, lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy. EPA =/= big government. Patriot Act = big government. ACA =/= big government. Citizens United = big government.

[UNI88]

I find it interesting that someone like Trip thinks a small government Republican is one the Top 5.

That's 'cause I actually believe in an efficient, small government that works for the people. Time and time again, people confuse my prioritization of social programs with "big" government, when big government is actually bloat from defense contractors, lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy. EPA =/= big government. Patriot Act = big government. ACA =/= big government. Citizens United = big government.

ACA = lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy thus by your definition ACA = big government.

My definition of big government is more dependent on tax dollars and workers required than on whether I support the program that is being funded.

[Ibanez]

I find it interesting that someone like Trip thinks a small government Republican is one the Top 5.

That's 'cause I actually believe in an efficient, small government that works for the people. Time and time again, people confuse my prioritization of social programs with "big" government, when big government is actually bloat from defense contractors, lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy. EPA =/= big government. Patriot Act = big government. ACA =/= big government. Citizens United = big government.

Maybe that's because in order to achieve all of your social programs, you require a big government. The ACA and EPA grow the size of the government and therefore increase the POWER of the government.

[AZGrizFan]

For a supposed historian, you sure don't know much about how the presidency operated in the early years....

That's a weak argument, even for you.
I'm aware of the good and the bad. I'm aware his antics aren't new in politics. During Andrew Jackson's campaign, the opposition said horrible, awful things about his wife. Called her a prostitute, bigamist, etc... It caused so much stress that Rachel had a heart attack and died. I'm not saying it was better and I don't know what I said to make you believe that. I'm not sure how that makes it acceptable in 2020. That isn't the point. Trump is unscrupulous. And if you'll accept this behavior, I can't wait for a Democrat to do the same thing so the GOP can sit and hypocritically clutch their pearls. We shouldn't expect perfection from our leaders, but we should hold them to a higher standard since they are the stewards of our government.

Speaking of clutching pearls....

[AZGrizFan]

I find it interesting that someone like Trip thinks a small government Republican is one the Top 5.

That's 'cause I actually believe in an efficient, small government that works for the people. Time and time again, people confuse my prioritization of social programs with "big" government, when big government is actually bloat from defense contractors, lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy. EPA =/= big government. Patriot Act = big government. ACA =/= big government. Citizens United = big government.

Says the guy who wants 10,000 representatives in the HOR.

And big government is big government. Period. Welfare = big government. ACA = big government. Patriot Act = Big Government. DOE = Big Government. IRS = Big Government. Food Stamps = Big Government. Defense spending = Big Government.

[Ibanez]

That's a weak argument, even for you.
I'm aware of the good and the bad. I'm aware his antics aren't new in politics. During Andrew Jackson's campaign, the opposition said horrible, awful things about his wife. Called her a prostitute, bigamist, etc... It caused so much stress that Rachel had a heart attack and died. I'm not saying it was better and I don't know what I said to make you believe that. I'm not sure how that makes it acceptable in 2020. That isn't the point. Trump is unscrupulous. And if you'll accept this behavior, I can't wait for a Democrat to do the same thing so the GOP can sit and hypocritically clutch their pearls. We shouldn't expect perfection from our leaders, but we should hold them to a higher standard since they are the stewards of our government.

Speaking of clutching pearls....

Yeah, that's what i'm doing Tom. You can't refute my statement on Trumps character. Got it.

[Ibanez]

That's 'cause I actually believe in an efficient, small government that works for the people. Time and time again, people confuse my prioritization of social programs with "big" government, when big government is actually bloat from defense contractors, lobbyists, and corporations inserting themselves into policy. EPA =/= big government. Patriot Act = big government. ACA =/= big government. Citizens United = big government.

Says the guy who wants 10,000 representatives in the HOR.

And big government is big government. Period. Welfare = big government. ACA = big government. Patriot Act = Big Government. DOE = Big Government. IRS = Big Government. Food Stamps = Big Government. Defense spending = Big Government.

No no no. Those social programs are small time.

[AZGrizFan]

Speaking of clutching pearls....

Yeah, that's what i'm doing Tom. You can't refute my statement on Trumps character. Got it.

My point is, you're putting him in your bottom 5 BECAUSE of his character...when character has hardly been a requirement for holding the office over the past 250+ years...many presidents make Trump look like a choir boy...thus, one can only assume it's because of his tweets.

BTW, I agree with you on Johnson. Don't know shit about the other three in your list, but that POS (I'm CERTAIN) had a hand in offing Kennedy.

[AZGrizFan]

FDR is the single biggest shitbag in American history and I am including Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and Hillary on the list.

He fucked this country into 90% of the problems we currently have with his safety net bullshit. Fucking freeloader

But, of course, saw WWII coming and put us in position to win that war, defeat Nazism and imperial Japan, and be placed to be the greatest superpower in the world for the next century. So all in all, that's a count on the plus side, no?

That's a hell of a statement. One I've never heard/read about FDR....in fact usually the opposite.

[Chizzang]

I consider Abraham Lincoln among the worst ever because he is responsible for a needlessly long and bloody conflict that cost 600,000 lives.

Said ^ the white guy in Georgia



I can't tell you how much this cheered me up
I knew this one was coming but I figured alpha or one of the CIDs would tell us about the tragedy of Lincoln

[Ibanez]

Yeah, that's what i'm doing Tom. You can't refute my statement on Trumps character. Got it.

My point is, you're putting him in your bottom 5 BECAUSE of his character...when character has hardly been a requirement for holding the office over the past 250+ years...many presidents make Trump look like a choir boy...thus, one can only assume it's because of his tweets.

BTW, I agree with you on Johnson. Don't know shit about the other three in your list, but that POS (I'm CERTAIN) had a hand in offing Kennedy.

Character aside, I don't think he's done much long term good aside from partisan judges and New NAFTA. The economy is great, don't get me wrong. But we all know it's a short term gain. I just hope the fall isn't too bad.

Btw, I meant Andrew Johnson, not Lyndon. Buchanan did nothing while the crisis leading to the Civil War escalated. Pierce is another who did very little to calm tensions which ultimately led to the Civil War. Bleeding Kansas was under his watch. Buchanan and Pierce were "Nero" while Rome burned, so to speak. Harding was a scandalous, lecherous POS.

[UNI88]

Yeah, that's what i'm doing Tom. You can't refute my statement on Trumps character. Got it.

My point is, you're putting him in your bottom 5 BECAUSE of his character...when character has hardly been a requirement for holding the office over the past 250+ years...many presidents make Trump look like a choir boy...thus, one can only assume it's because of his tweets.

BTW, I agree with you on Johnson. Don't know shit about the other three in your list, but that POS (I'm CERTAIN) had a hand in offing Kennedy.

Are you two talking about the same Johnson?