WWII vs. COVID - Big Government in Action

[Winterborn]

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks or Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

[BDKJMU]

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Remember, we were feeding the Soviets stuff from the get go - planes and most notably jeeps and stuff - to allow them to focus on tanks. Soviets wouldn't have lasted without us, and we would've been up the creek without the Soviets hanging in there.

Yep.

[GannonFan]

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

Yup, plenty of people involved to make all of it happen - FDR was an effective cheerleader. Truman actually made a name for himself (and led to the VP nod in '44) based on his role as a Senator on the committee overseeing war production.

[Winterborn]

Ganny's post is spot on about the differences in circumstances but it doesn't change my opinion that the Trump administration and federal government's response has been lackluster. There is a role that they could play in coordinating state efforts and helping to keep states from bidding against each other and driving up prices or hoarding supplies.

Are they choosing not to do this because of: 1) small government? 2) lazy? 3) there's a possibility that their cronies could profit from higher prices? or 4) some other reason? You can rationalize the administration's response all you want but Trump doesn't give a sh!t about small government so I don't think it's reason #1.

I have zero issue with how this has been handled given the lack of information available and the possibility of the data coming out of China was tainted or not the whole story (now seeming very likely).

I don't think they are "choosing" anything. Just typical government inefficiency, everybody is trying to get a piece of the pie for themselves and their buddies. Trump is an opportunist no different than any of the others. Albeit one that is also extremely narcissistic, which plays out in his taking credit for stuff he "accomplishes" (opportunist) and distances himself from the fallout on items that fail or go against him (deflecting blame).

Maybe a nice side benefit of all this inefficiency would be people or states taking care of things for themselves rather than relying on the Federal government to take care of them.

[UNI88]

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

So disregarding the pissing match over the differences between circumstances in 1941 and today, has Trump set up a similar board or administrative structure to coordinate the US response per the Defense Production Act? If he hasn't, why not?

[Winterborn]

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

Yup, plenty of people involved to make all of it happen - FDR was an effective cheerleader. Truman actually made a name for himself (and led to the VP nod in '44) based on his role as a Senator on the committee overseeing war production.

I remember reading stories about the larger companies petitioning the WPB materials to work on side projects (for the war effort) and them having final say in just about everything. They probably had more practical power than Congress at the time.

[CAA Flagship]

Absolutely CRIMINAL that any healthcare system, anywhere, didn’t already have a disaster plan in place for just such an event. It’s like SARS, H1N1, Bird Flu, Ebola, AIDS, etc., NEVER happened.....I mean seriously, WTF?

And that goes back way before Trump. Medical equipment and supplies should be more a strategic industry and we’re going to discover how important agencies like the cdc and FEMA are.

Like I said in another thread, the Federal Govt, through EPA regulations, requires potential polluters (facilities that store oil, fuel, chemicals, etc.) to have pre-arranged emergency response plans for quick response to control and cleanup releases. This is part of an overall Emergency Response Plan that also predicts the path of impact and requires periodic drills to ensure everyone, including the response contractors, are familiar with the Plan.

Now, to put this into practice with the equipment shortage we are experiencing, I think the following should be done:
1. The medical community should provide a list of critical equipment needed during large scale emergencies.
2. The Federal Government should require a certain minimum percentage of this equipment be manufactured within the US so that we can assure the domestic capacity can meet the domestic demand at a predetermined rate.
2a. Because the cost of US manufactured equipment would probably be more expensive than foreign made equipment, the Federal Government should devise a system to balance the cost and average the unit prices. So if a N95 mask costs $0.40 each from China, and $3.00 each from the US, the cost should be averaged based on the amount purchased from each country. I don't think the US Govt should be the buyer and distributor. I think this can be done on an annual reporting basis with payments/reimbursements made based on the purchasing results. Also, to ensure there is no frontloading or backloading, the purchasing results should have a quarterly breakdown with penalties if US sources are not used in any quarter.
2b. The medical community should provide Emergency Response Plans for the procurement of strategic equipment/materials/drugs/etc. during extreme events (set arrangements with companies to manufacture items they don't normally make).
3. OK, I'm winded. I have more items but forgot them. I reserve the right to add later.

[dbackjon]

Watched a little of Cuomo's conference today. He was saying that after NY peaks, and before other states peak, he could see NY sending their excess ventilators to other states.
It will be interesting to see how that works out. I wonder who will be paying for the ventilators that move from one state to the other. Will the last state to use them be stuck with the ventilators and the bill? Will the first state to use them be stuck with the bill and be forced to sell them to the other states? Will the federal government purchase them and loan them out to wherever needed? Will states pay a rental fee to the Feds for them? Actually, I really don't care one way or the other, but it will be interesting to see how they are paid for and how willing the states are to work with each other based on that.

Also depends on how this cascades going forward. It's possible that NYC will be its own specific case and that other big cities won't be as hard hit. I don't think any other big city has anywhere close to the population density that NYC has - I was shocked when I went to Chicago a few years ago how un-big city it was compared to East Coast cities - tons of space and it never really felt cramped. Obviously a place like LA is similar - just spread out even further. And on top of it, NYC had the misfortune of going first and I'm sure they get even more international travelers passing through there than most other cities do (and they might spend time there) so when China was exporting Covid NYC was a prime spot to feel it.

NYC got hit with the double whammy. I was reading an article yesterday on the spread using RNA mutations - the first case in the US can be traced back to a traveler from Wuhan to Seattle. New York got hit with strains coming from both Washington, and from Italy (via China). So multiple strains in NYC, coming from east and west.

[kalm]

Kalm goes on a fishing expedition and this happened.

Ganny's post is spot on about the differences in circumstances but it doesn't change my opinion that the Trump administration and federal government's response has been lackluster. There is a role that they could play in coordinating state efforts and helping to keep states from bidding against each other and driving up prices or hoarding supplies.

Are they choosing not to do this because of: 1) small government? 2) lazy? 3) there's a possibility that their cronies could profit from higher prices? or 4) some other reason? You can rationalize the administration's response all you want but Trump doesn't give a sh!t about small government so I don't think it's reason #1.

Agree. And there’s a chance in the end we are singing the praises of private innovation and decentralized power.

Like I (as well as the article) implied earlier, things are different today and it’s a different enemy. We play with the cards were dealt with.

[UNI88]

Ganny's post is spot on about the differences in circumstances but it doesn't change my opinion that the Trump administration and federal government's response has been lackluster. There is a role that they could play in coordinating state efforts and helping to keep states from bidding against each other and driving up prices or hoarding supplies.

Are they choosing not to do this because of: 1) small government? 2) lazy? 3) there's a possibility that their cronies could profit from higher prices? or 4) some other reason? You can rationalize the administration's response all you want but Trump doesn't give a sh!t about small government so I don't think it's reason #1.

I have zero issue with how this has been handled given the lack of information available and the possibility of the data coming out of China was tainted or not the whole story (now seeming very likely).

I don't think they are "choosing" anything. Just typical government inefficiency, everybody is trying to get a piece of the pie for themselves and their buddies. Trump is an opportunist no different than any of the others. Albeit one that is also extremely narcissistic, which plays out in his taking credit for stuff he "accomplishes" (opportunist) and distances himself from the fallout on items that fail or go against him (deflecting blame).

Maybe a nice side benefit of all this inefficiency would be people or states taking care of things for themselves rather than relying on the Federal government to take care of them.

Government inefficiency is a reasonable possibility. Both sides of the aisle have made their mistakes so I don't have zero issue with how this has been handled but I don't think the blame game is constructive. Ideally we need to stop pointing at the other side's mistakes while rationalizing our side's and work together to get through this. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible with Trump, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. Their inability to set aside their differences and work together is going to cost lives.

And I hope you're right about the side benefit. That would be the silver lining of the coronavirus.

I also hope that a silver lining of Trump's presidency is that we take a much harder look and line when it comes to the ethics of our elected leaders and how the laws they pass apply to them.

[kalm]

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

Also agree with this.

[Winterborn]

The War Production Board handled all of the direction of the martial production amounts and who got what throughout the war. FDR was the spokesperson for the overall effort, just like Trump is the spokesperson for this issue.

So disregarding the pissing match over the differences between circumstances in 1941 and today, has Trump set up a similar board or administrative structure to coordinate the US response per the Defense Production Act? If he hasn't, why not?

I think the Task Force that is headed up by Pence is a good fit for that and letting companies help out on their own (except in the case of GM). A case by case when needed is the right response.

The two time periods are an apple and orange comparison in my mind. I would not want the same response we had back then now, as in IMHO we are not in the same situation today as back then.

[kalm]

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks or Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

Sensationalistic headlines on a college football poli forum are my schtick. The OP comments were designed to illicit a conversation. And looksie here...it worked!

I want to keep this discussion mature and respectful so in other words.........

WAH!

[Winterborn]

I have zero issue with how this has been handled given the lack of information available and the possibility of the data coming out of China was tainted or not the whole story (now seeming very likely).

I don't think they are "choosing" anything. Just typical government inefficiency, everybody is trying to get a piece of the pie for themselves and their buddies. Trump is an opportunist no different than any of the others. Albeit one that is also extremely narcissistic, which plays out in his taking credit for stuff he "accomplishes" (opportunist) and distances himself from the fallout on items that fail or go against him (deflecting blame).

Maybe a nice side benefit of all this inefficiency would be people or states taking care of things for themselves rather than relying on the Federal government to take care of them.

Government inefficiency is a reasonable possibility. Both sides of the aisle have made their mistakes so I don't have zero issue with how this has been handled but I don't think the blame game is constructive. Ideally we need to stop pointing at the other side's mistakes while rationalizing our side's and work together to get through this. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible with Trump, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. Their inability to set aside their differences and work together is going to cost lives.

I would agree on the blame game, but that is par for the course for any politician concerned about re-election and filing their pockets. I would love for it to stop but like I said in an earlier post some days ago that they are a reflection of the people who elected them, and normal people don't like to take responsibility much less people who have been lead to believe by others (lobbyist) or their personality that they exist on a pedestal and are better than others because of their position.

We elect people in the hope that they are willing to put the country first but we should not be shocked when they turn out to be just as petty and self-centered as the rest of us.

[Ibanez]

Not to mention that prior to the war, US military production was already humming along. We were producing guns, planes, tanks, and so much more for France and the UK. Materially, we weren't caught off guard in 1941.

Yep. Think I have the below roughly right:
-Late 1939, after the war broke, US started selling the allies lots of stuff.
-June or July 1940, after the Krauts rolled the Frogs, after rolling most of the rest of Europe, Roosevelt brought in industry and got pledges to convert to military production and ramp up.
-By early 1941, the UK had run out of cash. Roosevelt came up with Lend Lease to get around the Neutrality Act, and started sending tons of stuff to the Western allies, and by the fall of 41' to the Soviets also..

That's pretty much it. Hitler didn't think we were capable of the production we were boasting.

That was a common theme with the Germans and the Japs - they failed to believe what America was capable of. They consistently underestimated their opponent.

[kalm]

Yep. Think I have the below roughly right:
-Late 1939, after the war broke, US started selling the allies lots of stuff.
-June or July 1940, after the Krauts rolled the Frogs, after rolling most of the rest of Europe, Roosevelt brought in industry and got pledges to convert to military production and ramp up.
-By early 1941, the UK had run out of cash. Roosevelt came up with Lend Lease to get around the Neutrality Act, and started sending tons of stuff to the Western allies, and by the fall of 41' to the Soviets also..

That's pretty much it. Hitler didn't think we were capable of the production we were boasting.

That was a common theme with the Germans and the Japs - they failed to believe what America was capable of. They consistently underestimated their opponent.

That’s we need to avoid now.

[GannonFan]

So disregarding the pissing match over the differences between circumstances in 1941 and today, has Trump set up a similar board or administrative structure to coordinate the US response per the Defense Production Act? If he hasn't, why not?

I think the Task Force that is headed up by Pence is a good fit for that and letting companies help out on their own (except in the case of GM). A case by case when needed is the right response.

The two time periods are an apple and orange comparison in my mind. I would not want the same response we had back then now, as in IMHO we are not in the same situation today as back then.

I agree - the needs we have today are very specific and narrow compared to the all-encompassing scenario we faced with a two front world war. Both are very serious events, but both are substantially different that it's not crazy that there should be vastly different solutions to each problem. We need ventilators, PPE, and mobile hospitals now, and we need a vaccine/medicine yesterday. Get those done and we're good.

[CAA Flagship]

Yep. Think I have the below roughly right:
-Late 1939, after the war broke, US started selling the allies lots of stuff.
-June or July 1940, after the Krauts rolled the Frogs, after rolling most of the rest of Europe, Roosevelt brought in industry and got pledges to convert to military production and ramp up.
-By early 1941, the UK had run out of cash. Roosevelt came up with Lend Lease to get around the Neutrality Act, and started sending tons of stuff to the Western allies, and by the fall of 41' to the Soviets also..

That's pretty much it. Hitler didn't think we were capable of the production we were boasting.

That was a common theme with the Germans and the Japs - they failed to believe what America was capable of. They consistently underestimated their opponent.

Could capitalism (and it's benefits to the American standard of life) have helped in this situation as people and companies were motivated far a quick return to normal? Absence war on your own soil, I think a return to a quality lifestyle is a good motivation.

[Ibanez]

That's pretty much it. Hitler didn't think we were capable of the production we were boasting.

That was a common theme with the Germans and the Japs - they failed to believe what America was capable of. They consistently underestimated their opponent.

Could capitalism (and it's benefits to the American standard of life) have helped in this situation as people and companies were motivated far a quick return to normal? Absence war on your own soil, I think a return to a quality lifestyle is a good motivation.

I don't disagree.

One thing I do remember learning in college (and from my grandfather) was that American businesses were eager to come together for the war effort. For many, it meant that they were turning machines on for the first time in years. But also, there was a sense of duty that I think is lacking today.

[AshevilleApp]

Plenty of places have run out of PPE.

Where? The worst hit is NYC. Cuomo a day or 2 ago said NY is ok now, but could run out in a week.

Depends on how you define "run out". I've read where nurses in Michigan were issued 1 PPE mask and given a paper bag to store them in for reuse in future shifts. They are made to be used once, not multiple times. I know local outdoor gear companies here in NC are shifting production to make PPE's and have started providing them to our hospitals because of the shortage. And things are just getting rolling here.

Let's face it, the states have been more proactive in this than the federal government. And in this state at least, many local governments have been more proactive than the state. Maybe we can learn from this ( ), plan for future events and better fund our public health systems. Not likely, but maybe.

[CAA Flagship]

Let's face it, the states have been more proactive in this than the federal government.

1. The states have been far more REactive then PROactive.
2. The states have their responsibilities, and the federal government has their responsibilities. The only problem is that an event like this overwhelms both the state and federal governments. But most people don't know where the dividing line falls. It's just easier to blame the federal government.

[UNI88]

Let's face it, the states have been more proactive in this than the federal government.

1. The states have been far more REactive then PROactive.
2. The states have their responsibilities, and the federal government has their responsibilities. The only problem is that an event like this overwhelms both the state and federal governments. But most people don't know where the dividing line falls. It's just easier to blame the federal government.

Does that what you stated contradict AA's post? Could the states be far more reactive than proactive but still be more proactive than the federal government?

[AshevilleApp]

Let's face it, the states have been more proactive in this than the federal government.

1. The states have been far more REactive then PROactive.
2. The states have their responsibilities, and the federal government has their responsibilities. The only problem is that an event like this overwhelms both the state and federal governments. But most people don't know where the dividing line falls. It's just easier to blame the federal government.

Okay man, how's this? The states reacted quicker than the federal government. And in NC, local governments reacted quicker than the state did. Either way, the truth remains the same. And you are correct in that it is more within the purview of the state and local authorities to restrict activities, and this did catch pretty much everyone off guard with its speed.

[CAA Flagship]

1. The states have been far more REactive then PROactive.
2. The states have their responsibilities, and the federal government has their responsibilities. The only problem is that an event like this overwhelms both the state and federal governments. But most people don't know where the dividing line falls. It's just easier to blame the federal government.

Does that what you stated contradict AA's post? Could the states be far more reactive than proactive but still be more proactive than the federal government?

Good point.
But no. The states clearly are far less prepared than the Federal Govt as it relates to their respective roles.
I'll admit that this is a "once-in-a-lifetime" event, which you normally don't stockpile for. But it seems they fell short of what they should have been able to prepare for.

[CAA Flagship]

1. The states have been far more REactive then PROactive.
2. The states have their responsibilities, and the federal government has their responsibilities. The only problem is that an event like this overwhelms both the state and federal governments. But most people don't know where the dividing line falls. It's just easier to blame the federal government.

Okay man, how's this? The states reacted quicker than the federal government. And in NC, local governments reacted quicker than the state did. Either way, the truth remains the same. And you are correct in that it is more within the purview of the state and local authorities to restrict activities, and this did catch pretty much everyone off guard with its speed.

That's better.