Hey Seattle and Portland.....

[BDKJMU]

Because they're having to deal with people who do this:

I see as SRT but not a personal identifier for this guy. Are USBP agents wearing identifiers but not other agents?

You shouldn’t see a personal identifier. 38 LEOS have already been doxxed during the Portland riots.
https://www.newsweek.com/38-police-offi ... 9530?amp=1

[BDKJMU]

....Federal Protective Service (FPS) Deputy Director of Operations Richard “Kriss” Cline said at a press conference on Tuesday that a crowd of more than 1,000 “rioters” surrounded the Hatfield Federal Courthouse and began removing plywood coverings before attempting to throw objects – some of them incendiary – through the windows at federal officers inside.

They also vandalized the building with spray paint, blocked adjacent intersections and set several fires.

“When officers responded to put out these fires, glass bottles were thrown and lasers – which can cause permanent blindness – were shined in their eyes,” Cline said. “We have three officers who currently have eye injuries and they may not recover sight in those eyes from those laser attacks.”

The FPS has purchased anti-laser glasses that federal officers are now wearing to prevent eye injuries.

Federal officers responded by deploying pepper balls and tear gas. Cline said officers observed one individual taking pictures of a water intake system to the Edith Green Federal Building, which is also under FPS protection. Earlier in the evening Monday night, a Twitter user said “So we can shut off the water to the buildings the feds are staying in to make it a nightmare for them.”

Seven people were arrested in the unrest that unfolded Monday night into the early hours Tuesday, including two for alleged assaults on federal officers and five for noncompliance with lawful directions.

One of the federal officers assaulted is a member of the Federal Protective Service, the other is a member of the U.S Marshals Service. Another federal officer was injured when he was struck by a glass bottle thrown by rioters, Cline said.

The Department of Homeland Security said that “violent anarchists” also had torn down the perimeter fencing around the Hatfield Federal Courthouse Sunday night into Monday morning.

Red, green and purple lasers were aimed by rioters at federal officers through the courthouse doors while one group used a strobe light on the building. A commercial-grade mortar firework was fired in the vicinity of the Hatfield Courthouse front doors.

Cline explained that these incendiary fireworks were launched at the courthouse at the same time that rioters had barricaded the front entrance of the courthouse, potentially trapping federal officers inside.

The U.S. Marshals Service also reported communications jamming – the first reported instance since the riots have started -- which may have caused significant problems with their radio communications.

Cline also detailed how the names of federal officers would be removed from their uniforms and replaced with their badge numbers after approximately 38 law enforcement officers had been doxed.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-rio ... orks-doxed

[UNI88]

I see as SRT but not a personal identifier for this guy. Are USBP agents wearing identifiers but not other agents?

You shouldn’t see a personal identifier. 38 LEOS have already been doxxed during the Portland riots.
https://www.newsweek.com/38-police-offi ... 9530?amp=1

Context is important. From earlier in this thread ...

Officer safety? The federal government doesn't have the resources and wherewithal to place a unique and readable sequence of letters and/or numbers on an agent's uniform or fatigues that can be tied back to their information only with a court order?

Having complete anonymouity is an invitation for these federal soldiers to abuse their power. There absolutely should be a method to identifying an officer that has broken the law and should be prosecuted for it.

[BDKJMU]

——

[kalm]

You shouldn’t see a personal identifier. 38 LEOS have already been doxxed during the Portland riots.
https://www.newsweek.com/38-police-offi ... 9530?amp=1

Context is important. From earlier in this thread ...

Officer safety? The federal government doesn't have the resources and wherewithal to place a unique and readable sequence of letters and/or numbers on an agent's uniform or fatigues that can be tied back to their information only with a court order?

Having complete anonymouity is an invitation for these federal soldiers to abuse their power. There absolutely should be a method to identifying an officer that has broken the law and should be prosecuted for it.

And if any unidentified LE attempt to assault or kidnap someone they should fully expect to be violently attacked.

[UNI88]

Context is important. From earlier in this thread ...

Having complete anonymouity is an invitation for these federal soldiers to abuse their power. There absolutely should be a method to identifying an officer that has broken the law and should be prosecuted for it.

And if any unidentified LE attempt to assault or kidnap someone they should fully expect to be violently attacked.

How do you know they're actually law enforcement if they don't identify themselves and don't wear an identifier? They could just be a bunch of wannabe badases dressed in fatigues and yanking someone off the street.

I am curious how this will play out when Trump sends the storm troopers to Chicago. Chicago cops can be badass bullies and thugs themselves. Will they join their like-minded federal brethren and go after the protesters and rioters no holds barred? Or will they follow the mayor's direction and reject the feds? How will the Feds react if CPD says GTFO and stands in their way? CPD vs. assorted federal agency army forces could be an epic battle.

[kalm]

And if any unidentified LE attempt to assault or kidnap someone they should fully expect to be violently attacked.

How do you know they're actually law enforcement if they don't identify themselves and don't wear an identifier? They could just be a bunch of wannabe badases dressed in fatigues and yanking someone off the street.

I am curious how this will play out when Trump sends the storm troopers to Chicago. Chicago cops can be badass bullies and thugs themselves. Will they join their like-minded federal brethren and go after the protesters and rioters no holds barred? Or will they follow the mayor's direction and reject the feds? How will the Feds react if CPD says GTFO and stands in their way? CPD vs. assorted federal agency army forces could be an epic battle.

EXACTLY my point. If there are unidentified LE don’t you have a right to defend yourself?

This is dangerous territory.

[Winterborn]

And if any unidentified LE attempt to assault or kidnap someone they should fully expect to be violently attacked.

How do you know they're actually law enforcement if they don't identify themselves and don't wear an identifier? They could just be a bunch of wannabe badases dressed in fatigues and yanking someone off the street.

I am curious how this will play out when Trump sends the storm troopers to Chicago. Chicago cops can be badass bullies and thugs themselves. Will they join their like-minded federal brethren and go after the protesters and rioters no holds barred? Or will they follow the mayor's direction and reject the feds? How will the Feds react if CPD says GTFO and stands in their way? CPD vs. assorted federal agency army forces could be an epic battle.

Might lead to more states standing up for their rights.

[CID1990]

How do you know they're actually law enforcement if they don't identify themselves and don't wear an identifier? They could just be a bunch of wannabe badases dressed in fatigues and yanking someone off the street.

I am curious how this will play out when Trump sends the storm troopers to Chicago. Chicago cops can be badass bullies and thugs themselves. Will they join their like-minded federal brethren and go after the protesters and rioters no holds barred? Or will they follow the mayor's direction and reject the feds? How will the Feds react if CPD says GTFO and stands in their way? CPD vs. assorted federal agency army forces could be an epic battle.

EXACTLY my point. If there are unidentified LE don’t you have a right to defend yourself?

This is dangerous territory.

No it isn’t.

People have assaulted and killed plainclothes LE officers and the fact that they were plainclothes was a successful defense

We’ve already been to this rodeo. DHS is just late to the game and hasn’t learned it yet

[UNI88]

EXACTLY my point. If there are unidentified LE don’t you have a right to defend yourself?

This is dangerous territory.

No it isn’t.

People have assaulted and killed plainclothes LE officers and the fact that they were plainclothes was a successful defense

We’ve already been to this rodeo. DHS is just late to the game and hasn’t learned it yet

Are these guys really LE officers or a federal military personnel? If they're military personnel, can an argument be made that Posse Comitatus should apply to them since they are enforcing domestic policies but not maritime or space laws?

Even if it can't under the letter of the law I would argue that it most certainly can under the spirit of the law.

[CID1990]

No it isn’t.

People have assaulted and killed plainclothes LE officers and the fact that they were plainclothes was a successful defense

We’ve already been to this rodeo. DHS is just late to the game and hasn’t learned it yet

Are these guys really LE officers or a federal military personnel? If they're military personnel, can an argument be made that Posse Comitatus should apply to them since they are enforcing domestic policies but not maritime or space laws?

Even if it can't under the letter of the law I would argue that it most certainly can under the spirit of the law.

I thought it was established that they are DHS officers. I haven’t seen anywhere that the military is being deployed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Baldy]

UPDATE:

Protesters and their moms attempted to peacefully burn down the Federal Courthouse in Portland again last night.

[kalm]

Are these guys really LE officers or a federal military personnel? If they're military personnel, can an argument be made that Posse Comitatus should apply to them since they are enforcing domestic policies but not maritime or space laws?

Even if it can't under the letter of the law I would argue that it most certainly can under the spirit of the law.

I thought it was established that they are DHS officers. I haven’t seen anywhere that the military is being deployed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Isn’t that the problem with DHS?

[UNI88]

Are these guys really LE officers or a federal military personnel? If they're military personnel, can an argument be made that Posse Comitatus should apply to them since they are enforcing domestic policies but not maritime or space laws?

Even if it can't under the letter of the law I would argue that it most certainly can under the spirit of the law.

I thought it was established that they are DHS officers. I haven’t seen anywhere that the military is being deployed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are formally DHS and other federal agency officers. Regardless of what they are called, it could be argued that based on their training, tactics & equipment that they're really a paramilitary force not law enforcement. I'm wondering how effective that argument could be.

[Winterborn]

UPDATE:

Protesters and their moms attempted to peacefully burn down the Federal Courthouse in Portland again last night.

With attendance by the mayor of Portland no less.

When some of the protesters and potential rioters showed up in downtown Portland, Oregon last night holding signs reading “Tear Gas Ted,” I’m pretty sure they were assigning that nickname to Mayor Wheeler, not issuing instructions to law enforcement. But the DHS officers deployed to protect the federal courthouse may have taken their signage seriously. In the wee hours of this morning, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler was indeed tear-gassed by the feds while he stood at the front of the mob challenging the barrier erected around the courthouse. From the sound of things, he handled the gas pretty well. Unfortunately, most of the mob charging the fence didn’t seem to like Wheeler any more than they liked the federal officers behind it.

https://hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2 ... -officers/

[Winterborn]

I thought it was established that they are DHS officers. I haven’t seen anywhere that the military is being deployed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are formally DHS and other federal agency officers. Regardless of what they are called, it could be argued that based on their training, tactics & equipment that they're really a paramilitary force not law enforcement. I'm wondering how effective that argument could be.

Just spit balling here, but not very much I think. Especially when one compares the training, tactics & equipment to some of the units that larger cities have (SWAT, etc.), one could argue that their training is on par with other local units that deal with the same type of incidents.

[UNI88]

They are formally DHS and other federal agency officers. Regardless of what they are called, it could be argued that based on their training, tactics & equipment that they're really a paramilitary force not law enforcement. I'm wondering how effective that argument could be.

Just spit balling here, but not very much I think. Especially when one compares the training, tactics & equipment to some of the units that larger cities have (SWAT, etc.), one could argue that their training is on par with other local units that deal with the same type of incidents.

Spit balling back arguments:
- Local government don't have a military force so SWAT is justified for use in certain circumstances but that the federal government already has a military force and has no need of a paramilitary one.
- SWAT teams are used for specific types of situations, is protecting a courthouse that kind of situation?

Regardless, this should be a scary thing for libertarians and proponents of small government and state's rights. It should also be a warning sign for socialisdiots. It's something that will happen more frequently with a big and growing government.

[Baldy]

Just spit balling here, but not very much I think. Especially when one compares the training, tactics & equipment to some of the units that larger cities have (SWAT, etc.), one could argue that their training is on par with other local units that deal with the same type of incidents.

Spit balling back arguments:
- Local government don't have a military force so SWAT is justified for use in certain circumstances but that the federal government already has a military force and has no need of a paramilitary one.
- SWAT teams are used for specific types of situations, is protecting a courthouse that kind of situation?

Regardless, this should be a scary thing for libertarians and proponents of small government and state's rights. It should also be a warning sign for socialisdiots. It's something that will happen more frequently with a big and growing government.

These protesters are attacking a Federal Courthouse on Federal Property, so it will be defended and protected by Federal agents. I don't see how the state's rights argument has much weight here.

[UNI88]

Spit balling back arguments:
- Local government don't have a military force so SWAT is justified for use in certain circumstances but that the federal government already has a military force and has no need of a paramilitary one.
- SWAT teams are used for specific types of situations, is protecting a courthouse that kind of situation?

Regardless, this should be a scary thing for libertarians and proponents of small government and state's rights. It should also be a warning sign for socialisdiots. It's something that will happen more frequently with a big and growing government.

These protesters are attacking a Federal Courthouse on Federal Property, so it will be defended and protected by Federal agents. I don't see how the state's rights argument has much weight here.

Sure if that was all they were doing.

[SDHornet]

Context is important. From earlier in this thread ...



Having complete anonymouity is an invitation for these federal soldiers to abuse their power. There absolutely should be a method to identifying an officer that has broken the law and should be prosecuted for it.

And if any unidentified LE attempt to assault or kidnap someone they should fully expect to be violently attacked.

Agreed.

[SDHornet]

Spit balling back arguments:
- Local government don't have a military force so SWAT is justified for use in certain circumstances but that the federal government already has a military force and has no need of a paramilitary one.
- SWAT teams are used for specific types of situations, is protecting a courthouse that kind of situation?

Regardless, this should be a scary thing for libertarians and proponents of small government and state's rights. It should also be a warning sign for socialisdiots. It's something that will happen more frequently with a big and growing government.

These protesters are attacking a Federal Courthouse on Federal Property, so it will be defended and protected by Federal agents. I don't see how the state's rights argument has much weight here.

Agreed. This isn't the Feds rounding people up at a peaceful protest at the local park.

[BDKJMU]

These protesters are attacking a Federal Courthouse on Federal Property, so it will be defended and protected by Federal agents. I don't see how the state's rights argument has much weight here.

Agreed. This isn't the Feds rounding people up at a peaceful protest at the local park.

Yep. And if the protestors attack the building and the feds trying to defend it, the protestors can‘t then back off the fed property and surrounding street, thinking the feds can‘t pursue them. Once the fed crime has been committed, the feds could pursue them as far as they wanted to.

[UNI88]

Agreed. This isn't the Feds rounding people up at a peaceful protest at the local park.

Yep. And if the protestors attack the building and the feds trying to defend it, the protestors can‘t then back off the fed property and surrounding street, thinking the feds can‘t pursue them. Once the fed crime has been committed, the feds could pursue them as far as they wanted to.

Including driving around in vans and snatching people off the street without identifying themselves or the reasons they're picking people up?

Maybe the governor should call in the national guard to surround the courthouse and make sure the federal paramilitary force sticks to their mission of protecting federal property; contain them within 50 yards of the building or so?

As I posted earlier "They're also attacking peaceful protesters and picking people up off of the street and in so doing violating their oath to protect the Constitution (1st Amendment - right to assembly and probably the 4th & 5th Amendments - searches & seizures and Miranda rights). Their actions are far from righteous."

Conservatives and liberals should both be alarmed by this. But conservatives don't mind when the Feds are going after left-wing extremists and liberals don't mind when they're going after right-wing extremists. If we allow it they're going to keep expanding their purview and eventually you or something you care about will be in their sites. It's better to nip this in the bud now.

[UNI88]

'Get the hell out of our uniforms': It's getting hard to tell who are the real law enforcement as camouflaged Feds crack down on protests

"That uniform is designed to blend into terrain, not to make you look like a warrior," Honoré added, referring to the distinct woodland camouflage pattern designed to obscure troops' outlines in battlegrounds like Afghanistan. "They're wearing these uniforms as a function of intimidation to look like warriors."
...
Following President Donald Trump's decision to broaden the duties of federal agencies to curb the protests across the country, specialized federal law enforcement units have been given paramilitary-like roles to suppress demonstrators.
...
US Army Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, previously highlighted his concerns, saying there needs to be clear "visual distinction" between the two organizations.

"You want a clear definition between that which is military and that which is police, in my view," Milley said during a congressional hearing earlier in July. "Because when you start introducing the military, you're talking about a different level of effort there."

Gen. Honoré likened the federal agents' actions against protesters as a "lawless group" who were "literally beating them with batons."

"Police don't do this, what kind of bull---- is this," Honoré said. "Get the hell out of our uniforms."

[BDKJMU]

Yep. And if the protestors attack the building and the feds trying to defend it, the protestors can‘t then back off the fed property and surrounding street, thinking the feds can‘t pursue them. Once the fed crime has been committed, the feds could pursue them as far as they wanted to.

Including driving around in vans and snatching people off the street without identifying themselves or the reasons they're picking people up?

Maybe the governor should call in the national guard to surround the courthouse and make sure the federal paramilitary force sticks to their mission of protecting federal property; contain them within 50 yards of the building or so?

As I posted earlier "They're also attacking peaceful protesters and picking people up off of the street and in so doing violating their oath to protect the Constitution (1st Amendment - right to assembly and probably the 4th & 5th Amendments - searches & seizures and Miranda rights). Their actions are far from righteous."

Conservatives and liberals should both be alarmed by this. But conservatives don't mind when the Feds are going after left-wing extremists and liberals don't mind when they're going after right-wing extremists. If we allow it they're going to keep expanding their purview and eventually you or something you care about will be in their sites. It's better to nip this in the bud now.

That would be great if the Gov called out the NG to help Portland PD and Oregon SP to quell the riots. But he won’t. If the feds hadn’t been there that courthouse would have been conpletely ransacked if not burned to the ground weeks ago.

Once some in the crowd start attacking the building and police its an unlawful assembly and there are no peaceful protestors.