SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:54 am
Come to the Seattle area and try that.
Loss of temporary freedom to do those things is greater than a potentially a few thousand lives?
Fair question. I've got a couple more:
Are the decisions to restrict freedoms being made based on science, psychology, sociology and economics or arbitrarily so that the people in power can pander to their ideological base and look like they're doing something?
Is it democratic for a governor to have the authority to impose these restrictions without time limits? Oregon just put a bunch of counties back into lockdown and I don't think the legislature has once approved her orders. Is she exceeding her authority? Has the legislature abrogated their responsibilities?
Has anyone tried to quantify the success of the various levels of restriction? Factoring in lives saved from Covid vs lives damaged and lost as a result of the restrictions.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
Loss of temporary freedom to do those things is greater than a potentially a few thousand lives?
Fair question. I've got a couple more:
Are the decisions to restrict freedoms being made based on science, psychology, sociology and economics or arbitrarily so that the people in power can pander to their ideological base and look like they're doing something?
Is it democratic for a governor to have the authority to impose these restrictions without time limits? Oregon just put a bunch of counties back into lockdown and I don't think the legislature has once approved her orders. Is she exceeding her authority? Has the legislature abrogated their responsibilities?
Has anyone tried to quantify the success of the various levels of restriction? Factoring in lives saved from Covid vs lives damaged and lost as a result of the restrictions.
Ibanez wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:15 am
I think I would be the first person to know, so you're wrong. I would think that if we lost a basic freedom in 2020, that President Trump would've been tarred and feathered. And if so - why are you "conservatives" so far up the ass of a man that took away your freedoms?
As correctly stated, I enjoy the same amount of freedom today than I did last year. I can eat at a restaurant. Walk in a park. Go to an amusement park. I'm attending a festival tonight with music, vendors and people. I can fly on a plane. I can still say what I want. I can still vote. I can still bear arms. The Gov't can't house troops in my home nor can they conduct illegal searches. I still have all my civil rights. Fresh and clean water. Fresh and clean air. Access to healthcare.
I'm up no one's ass.
You've lost freedom.
You're like that frog in a pot of cool water as the government slowly turns up the heat.
So you have nothing. Figured. What freedoms have you lost?
Loss of temporary freedom to do those things is greater than a potentially a few thousand lives?
I understand the idea that everyone should pitch in, but still believe it should be more like previous pandemics in that those most susceptible isolate and not the larger public.
Gil's doing it right. He self isolated until he could get vaccinated and now appears to be venturing out that he feels more comfortable.
I'm going out on a normal Friday, hit some antique shops, set up at the monthly sports collectors show that starts tomorrow. Watch Bison football Sunday and hopefully a bike ride. Name 1 freedom that has been lost.
Come to the Seattle area and try that.
You can't ride a bike in Seattle? Or visit an antique shop?
You can't ride a bike in Seattle? Or visit an antique shop?
You can ride a bike, but many small businesses are still locked down. Restaurants are still only allowed 25% capacity. Unless you are deemed essential, you've been screwed for over a year here.
You can't ride a bike in Seattle? Or visit an antique shop?
You can ride a bike, but many small businesses are still locked down. Restaurants are still only allowed 25% capacity. Unless you are deemed essential, you've been screwed for over a year here.
That must be a King County thing. Statewide, non-essential retail has been open since last spring with the exception of the January surge for a few weeks).
You can ride a bike, but many small businesses are still locked down. Restaurants are still only allowed 25% capacity. Unless you are deemed essential, you've been screwed for over a year here.
That must be a King County thing. Statewide, non-essential retail has been open since last spring with the exception of the January surge for a few weeks).
Kids finally got allowed to do 2 days of in person schooling this last week. My kids like attending school from bed, so they will finish out school online this year.
Loss of temporary freedom to do those things is greater than a potentially a few thousand lives?
Fair question. I've got a couple more:
Are the decisions to restrict freedoms being made based on science, psychology, sociology and economics or arbitrarily so that the people in power can pander to their ideological base and look like they're doing something?
Is it democratic for a governor to have the authority to impose these restrictions without time limits? Oregon just put a bunch of counties back into lockdown and I don't think the legislature has once approved her orders. Is she exceeding her authority? Has the legislature abrogated their responsibilities?
Has anyone tried to quantify the success of the various levels of restriction? Factoring in lives saved from Covid vs lives damaged and lost as a result of the restrictions.
1). I think it’s still mostly science driven. Lockdowns aren’t popular. The inconsistencies and hypocrisies from the Newsom and types notwithstanding. It’s always been a risk assessment to politics calculation. Impossible to escape the politics with damn near anything.
2). No. It’s not very democratic. Emergency powers should be monitored and reassessed constantly.
3). Not sure on the current. Apples to oranges comparison though. Damaged lives and long term mental health issues are a bit subjective and more reversible than death. Not to mention these would have occurred due to voluntary precautions and would have increased with higher case and death rates.
@ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.
Loss of temporary freedom to do those things is greater than a potentially a few thousand lives?
I understand the idea that everyone should pitch in, but still believe it should be more like previous pandemics in that those most susceptible isolate and not the larger public.
Gil's doing it right. He self isolated until he could get vaccinated and now appears to be venturing out that he feels more comfortable.
Instead we got the "one size fits all" approach and now people are claiming that approach didn't impact our freedoms. Hilarious.
You can ride a bike, but many small businesses are still locked down. Restaurants are still only allowed 25% capacity. Unless you are deemed essential, you've been screwed for over a year here.
That must be a King County thing. Statewide, non-essential retail has been open since last spring with the exception of the January surge for a few weeks).
Speaking of that January lockdown. My Brother in Law from Alaska wanted to meet up for dinner, so I picked a spot in between where he was staying and we lived.
Didn't know the lockdown had gone to "outside only" dining. You can imagine how wonderful that meal was. Windy as hell and raining sideways. Most miserable meal ever!!
Are the decisions to restrict freedoms being made based on science, psychology, sociology and economics or arbitrarily so that the people in power can pander to their ideological base and look like they're doing something?
Is it democratic for a governor to have the authority to impose these restrictions without time limits? Oregon just put a bunch of counties back into lockdown and I don't think the legislature has once approved her orders. Is she exceeding her authority? Has the legislature abrogated their responsibilities?
Has anyone tried to quantify the success of the various levels of restriction? Factoring in lives saved from Covid vs lives damaged and lost as a result of the restrictions.
1). I think it’s still mostly science driven. Lockdowns aren’t popular. The inconsistencies and hypocrisies from the Newsom and types notwithstanding. It’s always been a risk assessment to politics calculation. Impossible to escape the politics with damn near anything.
2). No. It’s not very democratic. Emergency powers should be monitored and reassessed constantly.
3). Not sure on the current. Apples to oranges comparison though. Damaged lives and long term mental health issues are a bit subjective and more reversible than death. Not to mention these would have occurred due to voluntary precautions and would have increased with higher case and death rates.
1) Not true as now "the experts" are finding the surface contact and 6ft doesn't have much of a benefit.
2) Agreed.
3) This is what will matter. How many other issues had increases that impacted lives due to the draconian measures taken. Time will tell.
SDHornet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:22 am @ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.
@ anyone who doesn't get that.
I’ve had that exact same thought and recently when UNazi88 asked about emergency powers compared to the Patriot Act. It’s a legit concern on some levels...but I’m still waiting to learn about the freedoms I’ve lost permanently.
1). I think it’s still mostly science driven. Lockdowns aren’t popular. The inconsistencies and hypocrisies from the Newsom and types notwithstanding. It’s always been a risk assessment to politics calculation. Impossible to escape the politics with damn near anything.
2). No. It’s not very democratic. Emergency powers should be monitored and reassessed constantly.
3). Not sure on the current. Apples to oranges comparison though. Damaged lives and long term mental health issues are a bit subjective and more reversible than death. Not to mention these would have occurred due to voluntary precautions and would have increased with higher case and death rates.
1) Not true as now "the experts" are finding the surface contact and 6ft doesn't have much of a benefit.
2) Agreed.
3) This is what will matter. How many other issues had increases that impacted lives due to the draconian measures taken. Time will tell.
1). So learning more about how it spreads negates it all? Do they fine you for not using hand sanitizer in Cali?
SDHornet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:22 am @ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.
@ anyone who doesn't get that.
I’ve had that exact same thought and recently when UNazi88 asked about emergency powers compared to the Patriot Act. It’s a legit concern on some levels...but I’m still waiting to learn about the freedoms I’ve lost permanently.
So those that lost businesses/jobs because they were told by the gubmint their business/job wasn't essential don't count.
Church goers in CA had to sue their way to be allowed to assemble, but since they won the court cases that doesn't count either?
UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:31 am
Fair question. I've got a couple more:
Are the decisions to restrict freedoms being made based on science, psychology, sociology and economics or arbitrarily so that the people in power can pander to their ideological base and look like they're doing something?
Is it democratic for a governor to have the authority to impose these restrictions without time limits? Oregon just put a bunch of counties back into lockdown and I don't think the legislature has once approved her orders. Is she exceeding her authority? Has the legislature abrogated their responsibilities?
Has anyone tried to quantify the success of the various levels of restriction? Factoring in lives saved from Covid vs lives damaged and lost as a result of the restrictions.
1). I think it’s still mostly science driven. Lockdowns aren’t popular. The inconsistencies and hypocrisies from the Newsom and types notwithstanding. It’s always been a risk assessment to politics calculation. Impossible to escape the politics with damn near anything.
2). No. It’s not very democratic. Emergency powers should be monitored and reassessed constantly.
3). Not sure on the current. Apples to oranges comparison though. Damaged lives and long term mental health issues are a bit subjective and more reversible than death. Not to mention these would have occurred due to voluntary precautions and would have increased with higher case and death rates.
1) Does mostly science driven mean that we're still not giving enough consideration to the psychological, sociological and economic impacts?
3) I graduated with a minor in economics 33 years ago and they were just starting to scratch the surface of this kind of stuff with econometrics. In today's world, I have to believe that if someone had the knowledge, desire and access to a strong enough computer that they could come up with some reasonable metrics. The lack of those metrics tells me that both the left and right don't want them because the science might not support their message.
Last edited by UNI88 on Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
I’ve had that exact same thought and recently when UNazi88 asked about emergency powers compared to the Patriot Act. It’s a legit concern on some levels...but I’m still waiting to learn about the freedoms I’ve lost permanently.
So those that lost businesses/jobs because they were told by the gubmint their business/job wasn't essential don't count.
Church goers in CA had to sue their way to be allowed to assemble, but since they won the court cases that doesn't count either?
The government should have floated small businesses more.
SDHornet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:31 am
So those that lost businesses/jobs because they were told by the gubmint their business/job wasn't essential don't count.
Church goers in CA had to sue their way to be allowed to assemble, but since they won the court cases that doesn't count either?
The government should have floated small businesses more.
Large indoor gatherings are still risky.
Prohibiting the free exercise of religion is an infringement on our rights.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
SDHornet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:27 am
1) Not true as now "the experts" are finding the surface contact and 6ft doesn't have much of a benefit.
2) Agreed.
3) This is what will matter. How many other issues had increases that impacted lives due to the draconian measures taken. Time will tell.
1). So learning more about how it spreads negates it all? Do they fine you for not using hand sanitizer in Cali?
No it means the measures taken were over the top...hence my description of "draconian".
Here's my example. Last year our local park and rec department tried to "close" outdoor playground. Yes, they physically caution taped and plastic wrapped off the play sets. Come to find out it was all bullshit even though common sense told you nothing was going to survive on the plastic and metal surfaces in 90+ degree heat.
And yes, their effort to "close the playgrounds" did little to keep kids off the playsets, including mine.
Ibanez wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:47 am
So you have nothing. Figured. What freedoms have you lost?
Playing devil's advocate ... right to assemble.
Ok - good point. There was a brief suspension of large gatherings in order to protect the public health. Unless i'm mistaken, there was plenty of assembly last year in Portland, DC, and many other cities. You surely can peacefully assemble now. I'm going to a town festival this evening.
This Sunday, are you able to attend church in Washington or Oregon?
Ok - good point. There was a brief suspension of large gatherings in order to protect the public health. Unless i'm mistaken, there was plenty of assembly last year in Portland, DC, and many other cities. You surely can peacefully assemble now. I'm going to a town festival this evening.
This Sunday, are you able to attend church in Washington or Oregon?
In CA, church goers had to sue to have their rights reinstated. That's not how this should work.
SDHornet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:22 am @ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.
@ anyone who doesn't get that.
I've been asking for years for someone to tell me a right that I had on 9/10/2001 that I no longer have.
A right...not a privilege or convenience.
Or are we all talking about our freedom of privacy? That I can agree that we have lost some privacy.
@ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms. 
@ anyone who doesn't get that.