As Luther opposed Rome, so I oppose "universal healthcare".

[TwinTownBisonFan]

TTBF, I don’t disagree with you that there is a crisis looming but I’m sure that the big government approach is the best solution. And I agree with ASUMountaineer that its about what is in the nation’s best interest (similar to infrastructure investments like the interstate highway system) rather than people having a right to healthcare.

1. the idea was to pass a bill before the recess because there was outcry about "getting work done" before the district work period
2. the blue dogs (not all of them, but some) are very cozy with the insurance industry, and that's a well known thing on the hill.
3. health care is thorny enough debate without throwing tort reform, an issue that can be dealt with separately - and i think that was the idea.

1. Great, our elected officials are more interested in appearing to accomplish something than making sure they are accomplishing the right things. When will we get leaders in Washington who are worthy of being called leaders?

2. Yes but ramming through a solution that doesn’t play well in more conservative districts could have an impact on the Dem majority in the future.

3. Maybe but you can’t truly address healthcare costs without addressing tort reform. And tort reform is too important of an element to the Republicans for you to honestly say the effort is bi-partisan if it isn't included in the discussions. And if you try to tell me that I should go along with the current efforts and trust Congressional leadership to really address tort reform later I’m going to believe you and Congressional leaders about as much as I would a snake oil salesman.

it's not a blind faith in the government - it's that i have even less faith in profit-driven insurance companies to serve the public good... companies don't do what is right, they do what makes them money... and that, in this debate, is the wrong motive

Why? Profit can be a powerful motive and with appropriate oversight can lead to great accomplishments. Why would a government bureaucracy driven more by the need to self-perpetuate than by any humanitarian cause be any better than the private sector?

the administrative overhead is cheaper for Medicare and the VA than it is for private insurance - and that's today.

i'm not sure i understand you point on "working" the system (elaborate if you'd like)

I don't know if this article is still available but it has some info on how providers can "work" Medicare as well as getting into why that approach can actually be more expensive.

Bending the curve on health spending
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... 1064.story

Interesting and relevent commentary from Denis Cortese, MD, president and CEO of Mayo Clinic and Jeffrey Korsmo, executive director of the Mayo Clinic Health Policy Center.

if someone is getting in to the health care field to get rich - ya know what... plastic surgery will still exist outside this framework - have a blast

It isn't about getting rich it's about attracting talent. The Medical profession is a demanding one that takes considerable training. Doctors have to go through undergrad, med school, internships & residencies. The more BS (government price pressures, fear of litigation, etc.) they have to put up with the less appealing the vocation. Maybe you're OK with Dr. Nick but I want my doctor, nurses, etc. to be top notch.

couple things -

i wasn't really defending the speed on the bill - was sharing the view from the hill by my buddies who are there

- side note on tort reform: republicans care about tort reform because they don't like that lawyers are donors to Dems, nothing less, nothing more.

as for the profit motive - it's not the only thing that drives innovation - in fact, it just as often inhibits it - it's the reason we don't find cures, we find treatments... more lucrative... less public good.

[ASUG8]

I think Freddie and Fannie give two solid examples of how much more controlled a nice big dose of government intervention is than private industry.

[Wedgebuster]

A friend stopped by here this morning while the hollering and screaming was going on at Spector's meeting, his daughter is a P.A. at the Cody Hospital. She says there is not one single doctor or P.A. that favors health reform.

What a shocker!

It strikes me that most of these yellers are incredibly stupid or incredibly misinformed. It doesn't bode well for the opposition to health care reform to have these mental midgets doing the talking for them. Remember how people shunned Sarah Palin and Joe The Plumber?

My cohorts, the insurance industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars of our former money, now a portion of their profit, to put up this fight against getting a handle on these runaway health care costs.

What a freak show of ignorance and stupidity this whole affair has become.

[death dealer]

as i understand it from a couple friends who are chiefs of staff and ld's out there -

1. the idea was to pass a bill before the recess because there was outcry about "getting work done" before the district work period
2. the blue dogs (not all of them, but some) are very cozy with the insurance industry, and that's a well known thing on the hill.
3. health care is thorny enough debate without throwing tort reform, an issue that can be dealt with separately - and i think that was the idea.

Sorry TTBF, but bullshit. Tort reform is never going to be dealt with by this congress. They are way to deep in the pockets of the trial lawyers. The absence of tort reform has nothing to do with efficiency. I'd support this bill in theory if it contained a strong measure of tort reform.

[death dealer]

the hammer thing, iirc was used by DoD to fund research they were trying to keep off the books, and isn't really happening anymore, however, your point of the need for oversight is an important one

the administrative overhead is cheaper for Medicare and the VA than it is for private insurance - and that's today.

i'm not sure i understand you point on "working" the system (elaborate if you'd like)

if someone is getting in to the health care field to get rich - ya know what... plastic surgery will still exist outside this framework - have a blast

If you think any docs opposed to socialized medicine feel that way because they are afraid it won't allow them to "get rich", then you are a bigger asswipe than I could imagine. I hope that is not true. Going into any form of medicine to "get rich" is the most inefficient way I can think of to achieve that goal. Being an ambulance chaser or politician would be much more effective. The vast majority of docs aren't in it for the money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be well compensate for their work. Most of the fucks in congress couldn't do what I do on their best day, and I'm just a dentist. GMAFB. Thankfully, Uncle Sam hasn't gotten his grubby little paws on my profession quite yet, but I have watched medicaid/medicare cut and cut away at my M.D. friends. Meanwhile, more and more shitbag lawyers circle the drain looking for a morsel. Seems like every other fucking commercial on the local channels is some POS telling the brainless turds in the audience how much they want to help them get what they deserve from those horrible doctors who screwed up their work, blah, blah, blah.

And don't get me started on the HMO's. I'd be fine if any of this had any realistic chance of sticking it to the insurance industry, but that isn't going to happen. They'll find a way to get theirs. And in the end, who is going to get screwed? I'll tell you who, the guys in the trenches that spent at a minimum 20 years of their lives humping it to get that degree and license to practice medicine.

Yeah, sure, they just wanna get rich at the poor little sick peoples' expense.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

If you think any docs opposed to socialized medicine feel that way because they are afraid it won't allow them to "get rich", then you are a bigger asswipe than I could imagine. I hope that is not true. Going into any form of medicine to "get rich" is the most inefficient way I can think of to achieve that goal. Being an ambulance chaser or politician would be much more effective. The vast majority of docs aren't in it for the money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be well compensate for their work. Most of the fucks in congress couldn't do what I do on their best day, and I'm just a dentist. GMAFB. Thankfully, Uncle Sam hasn't gotten his grubby little paws on my profession quite yet, but I have watched medicaid/medicare cut and cut away at my M.D. friends. Meanwhile, more and more shitbag lawyers circle the drain looking for a morsel. Seems like every other fucking commercial on the local channels is some POS telling the brainless turds in the audience how much they want to help them get what they deserve from those horrible doctors who screwed up their work, blah, blah, blah.

And don't get me started on the HMO's. I'd be fine if any of this had any realistic chance of sticking it to the insurance industry, but that isn't going to happen. They'll find a way to get theirs. And in the end, who is going to get screwed? I'll tell you who, the guys in the trenches that spent at a minimum 20 years of their lives humping it to get that degree and license to practice medicine.

Yeah, sure, they just wanna get rich at the poor little sick peoples' expense.

DD - I said IF... big IF... IF profit was their primary motive...

[death dealer]

If you think any docs opposed to socialized medicine feel that way because they are afraid it won't allow them to "get rich", then you are a bigger asswipe than I could imagine. I hope that is not true. Going into any form of medicine to "get rich" is the most inefficient way I can think of to achieve that goal. Being an ambulance chaser or politician would be much more effective. The vast majority of docs aren't in it for the money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be well compensate for their work. Most of the fucks in congress couldn't do what I do on their best day, and I'm just a dentist. GMAFB. Thankfully, Uncle Sam hasn't gotten his grubby little paws on my profession quite yet, but I have watched medicaid/medicare cut and cut away at my M.D. friends. Meanwhile, more and more shitbag lawyers circle the drain looking for a morsel. Seems like every other fucking commercial on the local channels is some POS telling the brainless turds in the audience how much they want to help them get what they deserve from those horrible doctors who screwed up their work, blah, blah, blah.

And don't get me started on the HMO's. I'd be fine if any of this had any realistic chance of sticking it to the insurance industry, but that isn't going to happen. They'll find a way to get theirs. And in the end, who is going to get screwed? I'll tell you who, the guys in the trenches that spent at a minimum 20 years of their lives humping it to get that degree and license to practice medicine.

Yeah, sure, they just wanna get rich at the poor little sick peoples' expense.

DD - I said IF... big IF... IF profit was their primary motive...

OK, that's cool then. Like I said, I was hoping you didn't really mean what I took away from that.

[Cleets Part 2]

Stalin and Hitler will look like Sunday school picnics if Obama gets his legalized euthanasia put into place.

Wow.

Yup...
I got two words for you: Nut Ball

[OL FU]

A friend stopped by here this morning while the hollering and screaming was going on at Spector's meeting, his daughter is a P.A. at the Cody Hospital. She says there is not one single doctor or P.A. that favors health reform.

What a shocker!

It strikes me that most of these yellers are incredibly stupid or incredibly misinformed. It doesn't bode well for the opposition to health care reform to have these mental midgets doing the talking for them. Remember how people shunned Sarah Palin and Joe The Plumber?

My cohorts, the insurance industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars of our former money, now a portion of their profit, to put up this fight against getting a handle on these runaway health care costs.

What a freak show of ignorance and stupidity this whole affair has become.

I think it is typical to think that people who disagree with you are ignorant and stupid.

[Wedgebuster]

A friend stopped by here this morning while the hollering and screaming was going on at Spector's meeting, his daughter is a P.A. at the Cody Hospital. She says there is not one single doctor or P.A. that favors health reform.

What a shocker!

It strikes me that most of these yellers are incredibly stupid or incredibly misinformed. It doesn't bode well for the opposition to health care reform to have these mental midgets doing the talking for them. Remember how people shunned Sarah Palin and Joe The Plumber?

My cohorts, the insurance industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars of our former money, now a portion of their profit, to put up this fight against getting a handle on these runaway health care costs.

What a freak show of ignorance and stupidity this whole affair has become.

I think it is typical to think that people who disagree with you are ignorant and stupid.

Thinking the government is going to make you leave your fine plan, that they are going to terminate the elderly, that they are going to be covering abortions, that the blacks will have no deductible for sickle cell anemia, etc, etc, etc has got nothing to do with agreeing with ME.

I don't think this bill is what we really need. So who is it that is disagreeing with me? These people are fucking tard balls, that is fact.

[Appaholic]

Stalin and Hitler will look like Sunday school picnics if Obama gets his legalized euthanasia put into place.

Wow.

Belligerence = the currency of the ignorant & uninformed.....

[Ibanez]

I've looked for an outline of the proposal online but haven't found a good one, anyone know of a site?


My biggest concern is the cost of healthcare to the ordinary "Joe Six Pack".

[AshevilleApp]

I've looked for an outline of the proposal online but haven't found a good one, anyone know of a site?


My biggest concern is the cost of healthcare to the ordinary "Joe Six Pack".

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/s ... 143&page=3

[Ibanez]

I've looked for an outline of the proposal online but haven't found a good one, anyone know of a site?


My biggest concern is the cost of healthcare to the ordinary "Joe Six Pack".

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/s ... 143&page=3

[AshevilleApp]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/s ... 143&page=3

Couldn't stop myself.

[Ibanez]

Couldn't stop myself.

Thanks for the link. HOpe to see you Saturday.

[AZGrizFan]

- side note on tort reform: republicans care about tort reform because they don't like that lawyers are donors to Dems, nothing less, nothing more.

as for the profit motive - it's not the only thing that drives innovation - in fact, it just as often inhibits it - it's the reason we don't find cures, we find treatments... more lucrative... less public good.

A couple things:

REPUBLICANS care about tort reform about as much as DEMOCRATS care about "health care for all". Dems care about expanding government powers, nothing less, nothing more.

Profit may not be the only thing that drives innovaton, but you can bet your sweet ass that there is NOTHING done by the government that would ever be mistaken for innovative. Our government is BUILT on the "find a treatment" mentality. If they found a CURE, the department would go away and THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, no matter WHAT department we're talking about. You know it, I know it, and most of America is waking up to that fact....hence the massive pushback on government-run healthcare.

[Appaholic]

- side note on tort reform: republicans care about tort reform because they don't like that lawyers are donors to Dems, nothing less, nothing more.

as for the profit motive - it's not the only thing that drives innovation - in fact, it just as often inhibits it - it's the reason we don't find cures, we find treatments... more lucrative... less public good.

A couple things:

REPUBLICANS care about tort reform about as much as DEMOCRATS care about "health care for all". Dems care about expanding government powers, nothing less, nothing more.

Profit may not be the only thing that drives innovaton, but you can bet your sweet ass that there is NOTHING done by the government that would ever be mistaken for innovative. Our government is BUILT on the "find a treatment" mentality. If they found a CURE, the department would go away and THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, no matter WHAT department we're talking about. You know it, I know it, and most of America is waking up to that fact....hence the massive pushback on government-run healthcare.

See. that's where I disagree. I think we sell our government too short at times. This pains me to say this, but some of our most innovative creations were formulated from government run agencies (Army Air Corps, NASA, DoD with field surgical techniques). I agree with the sentiment to a degree, but this broad generalization that anything government run is a failure is disingenous at best and inaccurate IMO.

I guess you both are correct to a degree. Government is ineffecient. However, if all ingenuity & innovation was left to private sector (profit-motivated), our technology would not have come as far along as some research is just cost-prohibitive and can't be measured by profit potential alone.

That will be all for my moment of clarity today. Now, back to my regularly scheduled bashing of government in general....

[hank scorpio]

I have read snippets of the bill and it's scary people, DOWNRIGHT SCARY. Orwell's predictions will unfold before our very eyes if this passes. Stalin and Hitler will look like Sunday school picnics if Obama gets his legalized euthanasia put into place. THIS MUST BE DEFEATED AT ALL COST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God help us in these perilous last days we face. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti.

... wow, the old saying is right

"a lie gets halfway round the world before the truth can even get pants on"

by the way, this hysteria has created a counterpart to the "birthers" the equally hilarious "deathers" who haven't taken the time to actually understand the bill...

If I am not mistaken the author of the "deather" ammendment (Senate version) is a conservative republican from the south who wrote it to make sure that individuals would have end of life options.

It is nice that the conks are using thier own legislation as "proof" that the Obama Administration is trying to turn the USA into a communist regime.

[Appaholic]

... wow, the old saying is right

"a lie gets halfway round the world before the truth can even get pants on"

by the way, this hysteria has created a counterpart to the "birthers" the equally hilarious "deathers" who haven't taken the time to actually understand the bill...

If I am not mistaken the author of the "deather" ammendment (Senate version) is a conservative republican from the south who wrote it to make sure that individuals would have end of life options.

It is nice that the conks are using thier own legislation as "proof" that the Obama Administration is trying to turn the USA into a communist regime.

Careful Hank...there's no room for honesty and "truthiness" in this debate.....you're playing with fire....

[AZGrizFan]

See. that's where I disagree. I think we sell our government too short at times. This pains me to say this, but some of our most innovative creations were formulated from government run agencies (Army Air Corps, NASA, DoD with field surgical techniques). I agree with the sentiment to a degree, but this broad generalization that anything government run is a failure is disingenous at best and inaccurate IMO.

I guess you both are correct to a degree. Government is ineffecient. However, if all ingenuity & innovation was left to private sector (profit-motivated), our technology would not have come as far along as some research is just cost-prohibitive and can't be measured by profit potential alone.

That will be all for my moment of clarity today. Now, back to my regularly scheduled bashing of government in general....

Army Air Corps? What are you, eighty?

[Appaholic]

See. that's where I disagree. I think we sell our government too short at times. This pains me to say this, but some of our most innovative creations were formulated from government run agencies (Army Air Corps, NASA, DoD with field surgical techniques). I agree with the sentiment to a degree, but this broad generalization that anything government run is a failure is disingenous at best and inaccurate IMO.

I guess you both are correct to a degree. Government is ineffecient. However, if all ingenuity & innovation was left to private sector (profit-motivated), our technology would not have come as far along as some research is just cost-prohibitive and can't be measured by profit potential alone.

That will be all for my moment of clarity today. Now, back to my regularly scheduled bashing of government in general....

Army Air Corps? What are you, eighty?

Hey, it's from my reading of Yeager and his pursuit of sound barrier......which, BTW, was completed in a more effecient & cost-effective time frame through AAC taking over the program from high-paid private contract pilots....

[hank scorpio]

Careful Hank...there's no room for honesty and "truthiness" in this debate.....you're playing with fire....

Sorry Appy, I don't know what came over me.

Fucking conks, shut up and let the grownups deal with this! We know what is best for you!

[OL FU]

I think it is typical to think that people who disagree with you are ignorant and stupid.

Thinking the government is going to make you leave your fine plan, that they are going to terminate the elderly, that they are going to be covering abortions, that the blacks will have no deductible for sickle cell anemia, etc, etc, etc has got nothing to do with agreeing with ME.

I don't think this bill is what we really need. So who is it that is disagreeing with me? These people are **** tard balls, that is fact.

I think the proposed plan is a "slippery slope" to a single payer system. There are enough democrats that want a single payer system ( including comments from Obama saying he would prefer a singe payer system if we were starting from scratch) to let me know that is the direction many in this country want to take the medical system. Count me in as one of the "tards" on that particular issue. I will stick to my original posts, many think those that don't agree with them are stupid.

Everyone that is shouting mad doesn't believe that Obama will kill their Grandma.

[Wedgebuster]

I've looked for an outline of the proposal online but haven't found a good one, anyone know of a site?


My biggest concern is the cost of healthcare to the ordinary "Joe Six Pack".

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/s ... 143&page=3

Damn, clicked that before reading the link.

Didn't let me in though.