Coronavirus COVID-19

[UNI88]

So looks like if you got stuck you were better off getting the Moderna instead of Pfizer..

I mean...that's hindsight and a 1st Gen vaccine. Anyone thinking they were going to get Jedi Force level protections until the end of time is putting pretty high and unnecessary expectations on the drugs.

I blame Trump. He's the jagoff that greenlighted the rapid development and implementation of the vaccines with inadequate testing. This is all his fault!

[Ibanez]

I mean...that's hindsight and a 1st Gen vaccine. Anyone thinking they were going to get Jedi Force level protections until the end of time is putting pretty high and unnecessary expectations on the drugs.

BDK is not the droid you’re looking for.

I actually agree, somewhat, with him.

[SeattleGriz]

I mean...that's hindsight and a 1st Gen vaccine. Anyone thinking they were going to get Jedi Force level protections until the end of time is putting pretty high and unnecessary expectations on the drugs.

I blame Trump. He's the jagoff that greenlighted the rapid development and implementation of the vaccines with inadequate testing. This is all his fault!

Yes. The great pivot.

[AZGrizFan]

I blame Trump. He's the jagoff that greenlighted the rapid development and implementation of the vaccines with inadequate testing. This is all his fault!

Yes. The great pivot.

[JohnStOnge]

Ok. Rand Paul was either being disingenuous or ignorant when he made the statement about cloth masks not being effective that got him banned. He cited two studies. You can read some about it at Politifact at https://www.politifact.com/article/2021 ... orie-tayl/.

And yes I know there's been a somewhat successful effort to discredit Politifact even though it is an extremely reliable source. But you can see if you're objective that the article is well referenced and provides input from experts in the field.

I navigated to the Danish study referenced by the article and it is as they said. Also found some commentary on the CDC site about both studies. One obvious problem is one I see a lot: People say a study shows that masks are not effective because mask WEARERS do not have a statistically significant rate than non mask wearers. That is looking at the wrong thing. The primary benefit of widespread mask wearing is not protecting the mask wearers. It is source control. It is stopping infected people from infecting other people. Here is CDC commentary on the two studies Paul referenced from its page at https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html:

Two studies have been improperly characterized by some sources as showing that surgical or cloth masks offer no benefit. A community-based randomized control trial in Denmark during 2020 assessed whether the use of surgical masks reduced the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers (personal protection) by more than 50%. Findings were inconclusive,54 most likely because the actual reduction in infections was lower. The study was too small (i.e., enrolled about 0.1% of the population) to assess whether masks could decrease transmission from wearers to others (source control). A second study of 14 hospitals in Vietnam during 2015 found that cloth masks were inferior to surgical masks for protection against clinical upper respiratory illness or laboratory-confirmed viral infection.55 The study had a number of limitations including the lack of a true control (no mask) group for comparison, limited source control as hospitalized patients and staff were not masked, unblinded study arm assignments potentially biasing self-reporting of illness, and the washing and re-use of cloth masks by users introducing the risk of infection from self-washing. A follow up study in 2020 found that healthcare workers whose cloth masks were laundered by the hospital were protected equally as well as those that wore medical masks.

[JohnStOnge]

Separate post to say that the idea that Paul got banned for saying the same thing that Olsterholm said is false. Olsterholm did not say that mask wearing does not have an impact. Olsterholm clearly supports having the general public wear cloth face coverings. HIs position is that, while it is helpful, it is not a panacea. Very different from Paul's "masks don't work" outlook.

Just one more example of conservatives with false "whataboutism" and trying to draw false equivalencies. Happens all the time.

Again: I am conservative. But what's happened to my "side" in terms of the dishonesty and information is horrifying.

[AZGrizFan]

Separate post to say that the idea that Paul got banned for saying the same thing that Olsterholm said is false. Olsterholm did not say that mask wearing does not have an impact. Olsterholm clearly supports having the general public wear cloth face coverings. HIs position is that, while it is helpful, it is not a panacea. Very different from Paul's "masks don't work" outlook.

Just one more example of conservatives with false "whataboutism" and trying to draw false equivalencies. Happens all the time.

Again: I am conservative. But what's happened to my "side" in terms of the dishonesty and information is horrifying.

For 30-some years, it was also the CDC’s position that masks were ineffective.

[clenz]

So...

If masks don't work why do we make surgeons wear them during operations?

If it is impossible to breathe through a mask for a 20 minute trip into Wal-Mart, how do surgeons live through 14-hour surgeries?

[SDHornet]

So...

If masks don't work why do we make surgeons wear them during operations?

If it is impossible to breathe through a mask for a 20 minute trip into Wal-Mart, how do surgeons live through 14-hour surgeries?

[SDHornet]

[SDHornet]

BuT tHe KiDs ArEnT sAfE

[kalm]

Separate post to say that the idea that Paul got banned for saying the same thing that Olsterholm said is false. Olsterholm did not say that mask wearing does not have an impact. Olsterholm clearly supports having the general public wear cloth face coverings. HIs position is that, while it is helpful, it is not a panacea. Very different from Paul's "masks don't work" outlook.

Just one more example of conservatives with false "whataboutism" and trying to draw false equivalencies. Happens all the time.

Again: I am conservative. But what's happened to my "side" in terms of the dishonesty and information is horrifying.

It’s interesting that Rogan had him on early in the pandemic and I don’t recall seeing him in their since. May have missed it though.

[CID1990]

So...

If masks don't work why do we make surgeons wear them during operations?

If it is impossible to breathe through a mask for a 20 minute trip into Wal-Mart, how do surgeons live through 14-hour surgeries?

Because bacteria are hundreds of thousands times larger than viruses, and cannot penetrate the fibers of a mask the way viruses do.

Surgeons wear masks to prevent bacteria infections in patients.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UNI88]

So...

If masks don't work why do we make surgeons wear them during operations?

If it is impossible to breathe through a mask for a 20 minute trip into Wal-Mart, how do surgeons live through 14-hour surgeries?

Because bacteria are hundreds of thousands times larger than viruses, and cannot penetrate the fibers of a mask the way viruses do.

Surgeons wear masks to prevent bacteria infections in patients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If masks are not as effective as many people think then masks could be giving people a false sense of security. Debating, determining and publicizing their effectiveness isn't calloused, it's compassionate. If the effectiveness of masks is limited and physical distance is better protection then people should know that.

[Gil Dobie]

So...

If masks don't work why do we make surgeons wear them during operations?

If it is impossible to breathe through a mask for a 20 minute trip into Wal-Mart, how do surgeons live through 14-hour surgeries?

Because bacteria are hundreds of thousands times larger than viruses, and cannot penetrate the fibers of a mask the way viruses do.

Surgeons wear masks to prevent bacteria infections in patients.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The idea behind mask is to reduce the amount of virus being expelled from a person via droplets, which contain many virus. Mask do not stop all virus from being released into the air by an infected person, they reduce the amount being released. The primary use is to reduce the chace of spreading covid, and not for protection. The homemade mask I wear is 2 layers of cloth with a filter in the middle. My local clinic has requested mask for people with upper respiratory issues long before covid started.

[GannonFan]

Because bacteria are hundreds of thousands times larger than viruses, and cannot penetrate the fibers of a mask the way viruses do.

Surgeons wear masks to prevent bacteria infections in patients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If masks are not as effective as many people think then masks could be giving people a false sense of security. Debating, determining and publicizing their effectiveness isn't calloused, it's compassionate. If the effectiveness of masks is limited and physical distance is better protection then people should know that.

Agreed. JSO can post all the crap he wants, but masks that aren't N95 masks are pretty limited in terms of their effectiveness against viruses like COVID. Even the link JSO posted supposedly in his defense of all masks being great said itself that cloth masks do very little. Social distancing is the best way, but then again, that's not terribly complicated either - pretty much most viruses and diseases can be limited if you stay away from sick people in the first place.

Our messaging on all of this has been terrible, right from the get go and all up and down the ladder of authority. Even now, blaming the unvaccinated in the US for the Delta variant isn't helpful nor truthful. It didn't originate here, and all evidence points to it being relatively similarly transmittable regardless of vaccination status. And of course the outcomes for folks vaccinated is far better than outcomes for folks who are unvaccinated, which should be the message, but instead we focus on transmission and cases because that generates the most buzz and clicks. We're going to have COVID with us forever, it will never go away or be eradicated. Learning to deal with it and contain it (and really that can only be via vaccines) is the only way to go. But instead we focus on school board meetings where people can act like idiots and again, that generates even more clicks. It's no way to run a country.

[kalm]

Because bacteria are hundreds of thousands times larger than viruses, and cannot penetrate the fibers of a mask the way viruses do.

Surgeons wear masks to prevent bacteria infections in patients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If masks are not as effective as many people think then masks could be giving people a false sense of security. Debating, determining and publicizing their effectiveness isn't calloused, it's compassionate. If the effectiveness of masks is limited and physical distance is better protection then people should know that.

It depends on the motivation of the debate. Sometimes it’s an honest, open minded debate based in reason. Often it’s political, denial, and anger based.

EG: when the majority of experts (healthcare, infectious disease, data scientists, etc) agree that masks are a useable arrow in the quiver. It sounds like you’re sandbagging for people’s ignorance a bit.

[GannonFan]

If masks are not as effective as many people think then masks could be giving people a false sense of security. Debating, determining and publicizing their effectiveness isn't calloused, it's compassionate. If the effectiveness of masks is limited and physical distance is better protection then people should know that.

It depends on the motivation of the debate. Sometimes it’s an honest, open minded debate based in reason. Often it’s political, denial, and anger based.

EG: when the majority of experts (healthcare, infectious disease, data scientists, etc) agree that masks are a useable arrow in the quiver. It sounds like you’re sandbagging for people’s ignorance a bit.

The difference is in the definition of useable. They are absolutely better than nothing. How much more useable is the big question. There are plenty of experts (and in this thread even the expert that JSO used to supposedly tout them, while in the same article he said they're pretty limited in terms of effectiveness) that say they're not much more than a panacea. Vaccines are where it's at - we should be talking about those and increasing those. Mask wearing (other than fitted N95) is just a venue for arguments these days.

[Baldy]

As I said, it ain't the right wingers who aren't getting vaxxed.

A shockingly honest article from the NYT

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

A construction site safety manager in Queens said that as a Black man, he was more worried about the prospect of being stopped by the police than he was about getting Covid-19.

A graduate student in the Bronx who had not gotten vaccinated said her worst fears seemed confirmed when a vaccine that the government was directing to Black and poorer neighborhoods was briefly suspended over a small number of dangerous blood clots.

And a civil rights activist in the Bronx said he grew suspicious when he heard last year that politicians were prioritizing minority neighborhoods for coronavirus vaccinations.

“Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?” said the activist, Hawk Newsome, a 44-year-old Black Lives Matter leader who is unvaccinated.

All three situations reflect a trend that has become a major concern to public health experts: Young Black New Yorkers are especially reluctant to get vaccinated, even as the Delta variant is rapidly spreading among their ranks. City data shows that only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44 years are fully vaccinated, compared with 48 percent of Latino residents and 52 percent of white residents in that age group.

[kalm]

As I said, it ain't the right wingers who aren't getting vaxxed.

A shockingly honest article from the NYT

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

A construction site safety manager in Queens said that as a Black man, he was more worried about the prospect of being stopped by the police than he was about getting Covid-19.

A graduate student in the Bronx who had not gotten vaccinated said her worst fears seemed confirmed when a vaccine that the government was directing to Black and poorer neighborhoods was briefly suspended over a small number of dangerous blood clots.

And a civil rights activist in the Bronx said he grew suspicious when he heard last year that politicians were prioritizing minority neighborhoods for coronavirus vaccinations.

“Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?” said the activist, Hawk Newsome, a 44-year-old Black Lives Matter leader who is unvaccinated.

All three situations reflect a trend that has become a major concern to public health experts: Young Black New Yorkers are especially reluctant to get vaccinated, even as the Delta variant is rapidly spreading among their ranks. City data shows that only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44 years are fully vaccinated, compared with 48 percent of Latino residents and 52 percent of white residents in that age group.

It’s both...

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-re ... s-growing/

[Gil Dobie]

It depends on the motivation of the debate. Sometimes it’s an honest, open minded debate based in reason. Often it’s political, denial, and anger based.

EG: when the majority of experts (healthcare, infectious disease, data scientists, etc) agree that masks are a useable arrow in the quiver. It sounds like you’re sandbagging for people’s ignorance a bit.

The difference is in the definition of useable. They are absolutely better than nothing. How much more useable is the big question. There are plenty of experts (and in this thread even the expert that JSO used to supposedly tout them, while in the same article he said they're pretty limited in terms of effectiveness) that say they're not much more than a panacea. Vaccines are where it's at - we should be talking about those and increasing those. Mask wearing (other than fitted N95) is just a venue for arguments these days.

Even this week Mayo clinic came out with a study that Pfizer and Moderna are not as effective against the new variants. I have no problem with a booster shot. But then people will only believe what them want, they didn't appear to believe Mayo's research on Mask, but they will believe that the Vaccines are less effective.

[Gil Dobie]

As I said, it ain't the right wingers who aren't getting vaxxed.

A shockingly honest article from the NYT

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

A construction site safety manager in Queens said that as a Black man, he was more worried about the prospect of being stopped by the police than he was about getting Covid-19.

A graduate student in the Bronx who had not gotten vaccinated said her worst fears seemed confirmed when a vaccine that the government was directing to Black and poorer neighborhoods was briefly suspended over a small number of dangerous blood clots.

And a civil rights activist in the Bronx said he grew suspicious when he heard last year that politicians were prioritizing minority neighborhoods for coronavirus vaccinations.

“Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?” said the activist, Hawk Newsome, a 44-year-old Black Lives Matter leader who is unvaccinated.

All three situations reflect a trend that has become a major concern to public health experts: Young Black New Yorkers are especially reluctant to get vaccinated, even as the Delta variant is rapidly spreading among their ranks. City data shows that only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44 years are fully vaccinated, compared with 48 percent of Latino residents and 52 percent of white residents in that age group.

Why is race a thing?

[Baldy]

As I said, it ain't the right wingers who aren't getting vaxxed.

A shockingly honest article from the NYT

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

It’s both...

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-re ... s-growing/

Really? Other than this article from the NYT, there is very little being said about it. If you look at the media, all they seem to talk about are the Conks who are refusing to take the vaccine.

Can you point me to Kaiser's study noting the racial divide in vaccine rates? I haven't been able to find it.

[Baldy]

As I said, it ain't the right wingers who aren't getting vaxxed.

A shockingly honest article from the NYT

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

Why is race a thing?

That's a good question.

A good question for your local neighborhood progtard activist to answer.

[UNI88]

If masks are not as effective as many people think then masks could be giving people a false sense of security. Debating, determining and publicizing their effectiveness isn't calloused, it's compassionate. If the effectiveness of masks is limited and physical distance is better protection then people should know that.

It depends on the motivation of the debate. Sometimes it’s an honest, open minded debate based in reason. Often it’s political, denial, and anger based.

EG: when the majority of experts (healthcare, infectious disease, data scientists, etc) agree that masks are a useable arrow in the quiver. It sounds like you’re sandbagging for people’s ignorance a bit.

You fell for the same baloney, posting about experts agreeing that masks are useable. The debate isn't whether masks are useable or not, it's about how useable they are. How effective are they?

We might be engaging in open-minded debate here but I don't see it from our politicians. Do you have a link to an open-minded debate among leaders at a state or federal level? It's either yes or no to masks indoors with no enough real discussion about how well masks work and what else the vulnerable should be doing to protect themselves.