Coronavirus COVID-19

[BDKJMU]

Indeed. Just get vaccinated. It's really not that difficult. And who cares if we need a booster shot every 6 or 12 months going forward. I get a flu shot now every year, it's not a big deal. Waiting for every place to go ahead and mandate vaccines - schools, businesses, stadiums, travel, etc. Those who don't want the vaccine are welcome to not get one, just don't come out in public and mingle.

Are flu shots mandated? And if YOU’RE vaccinated, why do you care if I am?

Bingo.

[SeattleGriz]

Not to mention they pretty much ruined the control group. Offered them the vaccine and now have so few left unvaccinated, it's going to be very difficult to draw statistically valid comparisons.

What was the incentive for those in the control group to not get vaccinated? If it was me and I had comorbidities, the incentive would have to be significant - generational wealth, 7-8+ figures - to get me to put my life at risk for the sake of science.

I agree. Assume they signed up for the hope of getting the vaccine. I also assume they were told you may or may not get the vaccine and they agreed to that.

[89Hen]

Why is the news on Covid all about Texas and Florida?

Deaths per million of population
1 New Jersey
2 New York
3 Mississippi
4 Louisiana
5 Massachusetts
6 Rhode Island
7 Arizona
8 Alabama
9 Connecticut
10 South Dakota
11 Arkansas
12 Pennsylvania
13 Michigan
14 New Mexico
15 Indiana
16 Georgia
17 Illinois
18 Nevada
19 North Dakota
20 South Carolina
21 Florida
22 Iowa
23 Oklahoma
24 Tennessee
25 Texas

[Ibanez]

Let me get this right...your criticism is that TOO many people are vaccinated?


Since December we've had billions of people vaccinated and it's been successful. When problems have come up, like the blood clotting issues, the vaccine and data were reviewed before continuing administration. From my perspective, the data and statistics seem to confirm the vaccines are a success and safe.

No. The control group of the original vaccine trials has been severely reduced. Many were offered, and given, the vaccine when the EUA was approved. Now when the trials are over, they don't have very many people that remained unvaccinated to compare to the vaccinated group. It's make the task of saying, "compared to the unvaccinated control group, the vaccine offers..."

I think you're grasping at straws here. You're essentially arguing against everyone getting vaccinated. If not...explain it to me like I'm 5.

[AZGrizFan]

Then why the liability removal? Why the dual approach now that Pfizer has been “approved”?

I don't know. But to say it was rushed just because it came to market in less than 1 year is ignoring some pretty important facts about the vaccine development process.


Why is approved in ""? Do you doubt it received approval this week? I'm not sure i'm following your implication.

You don’t know why Pfizer and the others were granted a release from any liability? Can you think for a minute or two and maybe come up with a reason or two?

And I say “approved” because the “approved” vaccine is IDENTICAL to the “unapproved” vaccine, yet THE LIABILITY WAIVER REMAINS IN PLACE FOR THOSE WHO GOT THE UNAPPROVED VACCINE.

Explain THAT to me, Myron…..

[AZGrizFan]

No. The control group of the original vaccine trials has been severely reduced. Many were offered, and given, the vaccine when the EUA was approved. Now when the trials are over, they don't have very many people that remained unvaccinated to compare to the vaccinated group. It's make the task of saying, "compared to the unvaccinated control group, the vaccine offers..."

I think you're grasping at straws here. You're essentially arguing against everyone getting vaccinated. If not...explain it to me like I'm 5.

Come on Mark, you’re purposely being obtuse. They destroyed the control group. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

[BDKJMU]

Are flu shots mandated? And if YOU’RE vaccinated, why do you care if I am?

Because I don't want to have to keep reacting to all of this crap. I don't want to wear masks anymore, I don't want to have debates over this anymore. Vaccines work, the evidence is overwhelming. The government should be working faster to determine boosters for everyone and they should be working faster to get the vaccine available for all kids under 12. And I care because I don't want rampant community spread that results in over-burdening the hospital system. We have tons of required vaccines to get into schools and to get into the military and to travel to and from certain countries. This is just adding one more vaccine. Like I said, if someone doesn't want it, no problem. Just be ready to be unable to enter a school, transportation, restaurants, stadiums, the military, and so on. I have no problem with someone making that choice.

Parents & visitors don’t have required vaccines for entering schools.

List the required vaccines before this yr do we have to have to have for entering a school, transportation (domestic), restaurants, stadiums?

No one has ever checked my vaccination history for:
-Entering a school (as a non student like to a ballgame)
-Going to a restaurant or bar
-Getting on a plane, train, bus (domesticaly or overseas for that matter)
-Going to a concert
-Going to a ballgame.
-Entering a govt building.


So this isn’t just adding 1 more vaccine. And its not something we’ve had to do in our entire lives before.

And FTR I have been vaxxed.

[SeattleGriz]

No. The control group of the original vaccine trials has been severely reduced. Many were offered, and given, the vaccine when the EUA was approved. Now when the trials are over, they don't have very many people that remained unvaccinated to compare to the vaccinated group. It's make the task of saying, "compared to the unvaccinated control group, the vaccine offers..."

I think you're grasping at straws here. You're essentially arguing against everyone getting vaccinated. If not...explain it to me like I'm 5.

When you perform a study, you have to have a group of people that didn't get the vaccine and a group that did so you can compare outcomes. The people that signed up for the study were made aware they may or may not get the vaccine. You have to finish out the study to make comparisons.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ing-immuni

"It's a loss from a scientific standpoint, but given the circumstances I think it's the right thing to do," he says.

People signing up for these studies were not promised special treatment, but once the FDA authorized the vaccines, their developers decided to offer the shots.

Dr. Steven Goodman, a clinical trials specialist at Stanford University, says losing those control groups makes it more difficult to answer some important questions about COVID-19 vaccines.

"We don't know how long protections lasts," he says. "We don't know efficacy against variants — for which we definitely need a good control arm — and we also don't know if there are any differences in any of these parameters by age or race or infirmity."

Scientists may be able to infer some of this, for example if it becomes evident that vaccinated people commonly fall ill after exposure to virus variants. Further safety information is also being collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, as well as the FDA, based on the experience of millions of people who have now taken the shots.

[Ibanez]

I think you're grasping at straws here. You're essentially arguing against everyone getting vaccinated. If not...explain it to me like I'm 5.

Come on Mark, you’re purposely being obtuse. They destroyed the control group. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

They destroyed the control group in a test? Is that the part I'm missing? Otherwise...you're saying that the problem is that too many people are getting vaccinated. And i'mvnot sure I'm following the logic.

[Ibanez]

I think you're grasping at straws here. You're essentially arguing against everyone getting vaccinated. If not...explain it to me like I'm 5.

When you perform a study, you have to have a group of people that didn't get the vaccine and a group that did so you can compare outcomes. The people that signed up for the study were made aware they may or may not get the vaccine. You have to finish out the study to make comparisons.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ing-immuni

"It's a loss from a scientific standpoint, but given the circumstances I think it's the right thing to do," he says.

People signing up for these studies were not promised special treatment, but once the FDA authorized the vaccines, their developers decided to offer the shots.

Dr. Steven Goodman, a clinical trials specialist at Stanford University, says losing those control groups makes it more difficult to answer some important questions about COVID-19 vaccines.

"We don't know how long protections lasts," he says. "We don't know efficacy against variants — for which we definitely need a good control arm — and we also don't know if there are any differences in any of these parameters by age or race or infirmity."

Scientists may be able to infer some of this, for example if it becomes evident that vaccinated people commonly fall ill after exposure to virus variants. Further safety information is also being collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, as well as the FDA, based on the experience of millions of people who have now taken the shots.

I understand a control group. I don't think your posts were telling the whole story but I kind of see what you're saying now.

[BDKJMU]

What about those with natural immunity? Will the gold standard of antibody testing be accepted as proof?

If they have natural immunity what's the danger of getting the vaccine? And the booster shots? Just get the vaccine and move on.

What do the studies show of people 2,3, 5 years after taking the vaccine? 2,3,5 years and more after taking the booster shot?

[kalm]

If they have natural immunity what's the danger of getting the vaccine? And the booster shots? Just get the vaccine and move on.

What do the studies show of people 2,3, 5 years after taking the vaccine? 2,3,5 years and more after taking the booster shot?

They’re still alive?

[UNI88]

What was the incentive for those in the control group to not get vaccinated? If it was me and I had comorbidities, the incentive would have to be significant - generational wealth, 7-8+ figures - to get me to put my life at risk for the sake of science.

I agree. Assume they signed up for the hope of getting the vaccine. I also assume they were told you may or may not get the vaccine and they agreed to that.

And if I had comorbidities that concerned me, I would drop out of the study and find out whether I got the vaccine or was in the control group. If I was in the control group, I would get the vaccine.

[BDKJMU]

Yes, because vaccines that have been around for 30, 40, 50 years are exactly like ones that were rushed to market, untested, in 8 months.

They didn't wait 30 years to go by before adding vaccines to the list of vaccines needed to enter school. Sure, they probably didn't wait just 8 months, but it was much closer to 8 months than 30 years. The vaccines work, we're not about to create a zombie apocalypse, mandate the vaccines and those who choose not to get it can adjust their lives to skip the things and venues that require it. Homeschooling is always an option. Not taking that trip to Fiji is always an option. Not eating in that fancy restaurant downtown is always an option. Not taking public transportation is always an option. Not enrolling in the military is always an option. Not going to a sporting event is always an option.

When in the history of this country have we required a vaccine to go to a restaurant, take public transportation, or go to a sporting event?

[Ibanez]

I don't know. But to say it was rushed just because it came to market in less than 1 year is ignoring some pretty important facts about the vaccine development process.


Why is approved in ""? Do you doubt it received approval this week? I'm not sure i'm following your implication.

You don’t know why Pfizer and the others were granted a release from any liability? Can you think for a minute or two and maybe come up with a reason or two?

And I say “approved” because the “approved” vaccine is IDENTICAL to the “unapproved” vaccine, yet THE LIABILITY WAIVER REMAINS IN PLACE FOR THOSE WHO GOT THE UNAPPROVED VACCINE.

Explain THAT to me, Myron…..

By law, Pfizer is protected for 4 years after the drug is approved. Looks like it's been around for quite some time.

According to 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, "No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings."

In 2005, the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREP) was created to protect from liability pharmaceutical companies that make or distribute vaccines unless there is "willful misconduct" by the company.

HHS Secretary Alex Azar invoked PREP in February in response to the pandemic, declaring COVID-19 to be "a public health emergency warranting liability protections for covered countermeasures."

This means that companies like Moderna and Pfizer are protected from lawsuits regarding their COVID-19 vaccines until 2024.

Doesn't sound like it's anything new.

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are ... ts-1562793

[BDKJMU]

U of M Link
The vaccines for the novel coronavirus went through the same layers of review and testing as other vaccines. Due to the dire nature of the pandemic, certain barriers to development, related to funding and manufacturing, were removed.

To understand how this is possible, it is important to know how the vaccine development process typically works and how the COVID vaccine was created.

Heck, we ought to be damn proud as Americans that we were able to make the vaccines we did in as fast a time frame as we did. Our health care system is a mess, but no other country in the world could do what we did as fast as we did it in terms of getting a vaccine out for COVID. You ought to be proud as an American to get the vaccine shot - it's a patriotic moment. China's probably pissed off that we out-vaccined them on a virus they had a head start in. Take that comrade Houndy.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/we ... us-vaccine

[SeattleGriz]

I agree. Assume they signed up for the hope of getting the vaccine. I also assume they were told you may or may not get the vaccine and they agreed to that.

And if I had comorbidities that concerned me, I would drop out of the study and find out whether I got the vaccine or was in the control group. If I was in the control group, I would get the vaccine.

Same here. If I was at risk, I wouldn't sign up. I'm sure some of that had to be screened.

[SeattleGriz]

When you perform a study, you have to have a group of people that didn't get the vaccine and a group that did so you can compare outcomes. The people that signed up for the study were made aware they may or may not get the vaccine. You have to finish out the study to make comparisons.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ing-immuni

I understand a control group. I don't think your posts were telling the whole story but I kind of see what you're saying now.

Well you did say to explain it as if you were 5!

[Ibanez]

I understand a control group. I don't think your posts were telling the whole story but I kind of see what you're saying now.

Well you did say to explain it as if you were 5!

Took you long enough....

[BDKJMU]

Because I don't want to have to keep reacting to all of this crap. I don't want to wear masks anymore, I don't want to have debates over this anymore. Vaccines work, the evidence is overwhelming. The government should be working faster to determine boosters for everyone and they should be working faster to get the vaccine available for all kids under 12. And I care because I don't want rampant community spread that results in over-burdening the hospital system. We have tons of required vaccines to get into schools and to get into the military and to travel to and from certain countries. This is just adding one more vaccine. Like I said, if someone doesn't want it, no problem. Just be ready to be unable to enter a school, transportation, restaurants, stadiums, the military, and so on. I have no problem with someone making that choice.

You actually think masks and all these mandates (ie gubmint control) will ever go away regardless of what % of the population is vaxxed?

That's cute.

And good luck getting me to put this shit in my kid.

I do, but not until 2025 at the fed level. But in some deep bluebstates may never go away.

[AshevilleApp]

Why is the news on Covid all about Texas and Florida?

Deaths per million of population
1 New Jersey
2 New York
3 Mississippi
4 Louisiana
5 Massachusetts
6 Rhode Island
7 Arizona
8 Alabama
9 Connecticut
10 South Dakota
11 Arkansas
12 Pennsylvania
13 Michigan
14 New Mexico
15 Indiana
16 Georgia
17 Illinois
18 Nevada
19 North Dakota
20 South Carolina
21 Florida
22 Iowa
23 Oklahoma
24 Tennessee
25 Texas

Is that since the first onset of Covid or since the variant?

[kalm]

My company probably won't mandate it. It's hard enough finding new hires now at the plant operator level, I think they would have more problems filling those spots if they mandated it. There is a business decision to be made and I respect that. With that said, they're going to remove any and all restrictions on people who have been vaccinated and provide proof of that. For the others, they'll likely have to wear masks and get some kind of regular testing for the foreseeable future. I doubt they'll go with an additional fee on the health care for the unvaccinated, at least right away, but that's something I'm sure they'll add eventually, especially if it becomes that much more common to add a policy like that.

Make sure you tell your un-vaxxed employees and coworkers to stay away from public places.

That’s your choice as a parent. Just be prepared to stay home a lot until this wave blows over.

Your turn.

[BDKJMU]

I actually like the policy that Delta just came out with - don't want the vaccine? Sure, no problem, we don't want to mandate it and force you to get it. At the same time, you're also a much bigger actuarial risk for us as a company so we're going to charge you $200 a month extra on your health care to take that into account. Again, it's a choice and you get to make that choice individually for you and for your children under 18. Heck, I think they should make people get on a scale and do the same to the vastly obese folks. It's a choice to be incredibly out of shape, everyone's welcome to make that choice, but it'll cost ya.

I don't have a problem with this approach either.

Agreed. For the younger, healthy empoyees, if on the company’s coverage and don’t want to get vaxxed, (or for those who can’t vax for religious or medical reasons, not sure if are exemptions) drop it, or go on spouse’s coverage if possible, or get Obamacare.

[89Hen]

Is that since the first onset of Covid or since the variant?

Total, but they'll never come close to catching up.

[BDKJMU]

Agreed we're not a police state. But your mentality of keeping those that aren't vaxxed out of public places will certainly lead to one if the DNC had their way. Of course you'd have no problem with it as you previously stated.

And more conflation with existing vaccination which is a different situation that the novel coronavirus we've been dealing with for the past 18 months.

I don't care what the DNC thinks. I will never agree to vaccine mandates for everyone. But I have no problem with places like schools and hospitals and public transportation and international travel and restaurants and gyms and other locations requiring vaccinations to use those facilities. You make a choice if you want to use those places or if you want to stay unvaccinated. Your call.

And just because you have a magical 8 year window before you deem a vaccination to be safe doesn't mean that others have to abide by your 8 year window. We didn't do that before with other vaccines so I don't see why this one needs such special protection.

If a private business wants to mandate proof of vaccine or negative test for their customers that is their right.. But govt has no business telling private businesses like restaurants, bars, gyms, private schools, pro sports teams, etc, that they have to mandate it for their customers.