Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:49 am
kalm wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:03 am

Don’t know what “AB titers” are? Are they the same as hangers?

A recent study out of Israel suggests natural immunity once you’ve had it lasts longer than the vaccines. But I’m guessing not forever and/or against variants.
Guess there’s more to the story. Still much to learn…
The booster-industrial complex

By: David Leonhardt
The New York Times

Good morning. Vaccine immunity may not really be waning much — which means universal booster shots may do little good.

Late last month, researchers in Israel released some alarming new Covid-19 data. The data showed that many Israelis who had been among the first to receive the vaccine were nonetheless catching the Covid virus. Israelis who had been vaccinated later were not getting infected as often.

The study led to headlines around the world about waning immunity — the idea that vaccines lose their effectiveness over time. In the U.S., the Israeli study accelerated a debate about vaccine booster shots and played a role in the Biden administration’s recent recommendation that all Americans receive a booster shot eight months after their second dose.

But the real story about waning immunity is more complex than the initial headlines suggested. Some scientists believe that the Israeli data was misleading and that U.S. policy on booster shots has gotten ahead of the facts. The evidence for waning immunity is murky, these scientists say, and booster shots may not have a big effect.

After returning from an August break last week, I have spent time reaching out to scientists to ask for their help in understanding the current, confusing stage of the pandemic. How worried should vaccinated people be about the Delta variant? How much risk do children face? Which parts of the Covid story are being overhyped, and which deserve more attention?

I will be trying to answer these questions in the coming weeks. (I’d also like to know what questions you want answered; submit them here.)

One of the main messages I’m hearing from the experts is that conventional wisdom about waning immunity is problematic. Yes, the immunity from the Covid vaccines will wane at some point. But it may not yet have waned in a meaningful way.

“There’s a big difference between needing another shot every six months versus every five years,” Dr. David Dowdy, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University, told me. “So far, looking at the data we have, I’m not seeing much evidence that we’ve reached that point yet.”


At first glance, the Israeli data seems straightforward: People who had been vaccinated in the winter were more likely to contract the virus this summer than people who had been vaccinated in the spring.

Yet it would truly be proof of waning immunity only if the two groups — the winter and spring vaccine recipients — were otherwise similar to each other. If not, the other differences between them might be the real reason for the gap in the Covid rates.

As it turns out, the two groups were different. The first Israelis to have received the vaccine tended to be more affluent and educated. By coincidence, these same groups later were among the first exposed to the Delta variant, perhaps because they were more likely to travel. Their higher infection rate may have stemmed from the new risks they were taking, not any change in their vaccine protection.

Statisticians have a name for this possibility — when topline statistics point to a false conclusion that disappears when you examine subgroups. It’s called Simpson’s Paradox.

This paradox may also explain some of the U.S. data that the C.D.C. has cited to justify booster shots. Many Americans began to resume more indoor activities this spring. That more were getting Covid may reflect their newfound Covid exposure (as well as the arrival of Delta), rather than any waning of immunity over time.

‘Where is it?’

Sure enough, other data supports the notion that vaccine immunity is not waning much.

The ratio of positive Covid tests among older adults and children, for example, does not seem to be changing, Dowdy notes. If waning immunity were a major problem, we should expect to see a faster rise in Covid cases among older people (who were among the first to receive shots). And even the Israeli analysis showed that the vaccines continued to prevent serious Covid illness at essentially the same rate as before.

“If there’s data proving the need for boosters, where is it?” Zeynep Tufekci, the sociologist and Times columnist, has written.

Part of the problem is that the waning-immunity story line is irresistible to many people. The vaccine makers — Pfizer, Moderna and others — have an incentive to promote it, because booster shots will bring them big profits. The C.D.C. and F.D.A., for their part, have a history of extreme caution, even when it harms public health. We in the media tend to suffer from bad-news bias. And many Americans are so understandably frightened by Covid that they pay more attention to alarming signs than reassuring ones.

The bottom line

Here’s my best attempt to give you an objective summary of the evidence, free from alarmism — and acknowledging uncertainty:

Immunity does probably wane modestly within the first year of receiving a shot. For this reason, booster shots make sense for vulnerable people, many experts believe. As Dr. Céline Gounder of Bellevue Hospital Center told my colleague Apoorva Mandavilli, the C.D.C.’s data “support giving additional doses of vaccine to highly immunocompromised persons and nursing home residents, not to the general public.”

The current booster shots may do little good for most people. The vaccines continue to provide excellent protection against illness (as opposed to merely a positive Covid test). People will eventually need boosters, but it may make more sense to wait for one specifically designed to combat a variant. “We don’t know whether a non-Delta booster would improve protection against Delta,” Dr. Aaron Richterman of the University of Pennsylvania told me.

A national policy of frequent booster shots has significant costs, financially and otherwise. Among other things, the exaggerated discussion of waning immunity contributes to vaccine skepticism.

While Americans are focusing on booster shots, other policies may do much more to beat back Covid, including more vaccine mandates in the U.S.; a more rapid push to vaccinate the world (and prevent other variants from taking root); and an accelerated F.D.A. study of vaccines for children.

As always, we should be open to changing our minds as we get new evidence. As Richterman puts it, “We have time to gather the appropriate evidence before rushing into boosters.”
Simpson's Paradox?

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Sorry couldn't resist. That is an excellent piece.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by ∞∞∞ »

@ganny

My mom and sister are teachers, and two of my best friends are teachers. None of them care about the masks.

Sure they'll ditch them as soon as possible, but it's not some big deal. None have complained about wearing them all day. I saw my sister yesterday and it wasn't even a point of discussion. Luckily she's had no difficult parents so far.
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:37 am
kalm wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:49 am

Guess there’s more to the story. Still much to learn…

Simpson's Paradox?

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Sorry couldn't resist. That is an excellent piece.
You NEVER have to apologize for Simpsons references. :thumb:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Well duh.
Australia to end 'covid zero' policy: 'Not a sustainable way to live'
Around 27% of Australians have been fully vaccinated
https://www.foxnews.com/world/australia ... ustainable
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:45 am
BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:42 am
Notice the date. Mon, 11/8. And it doesn’t apply to fall sports. Still sucks for those kids playing winter and spring sports to be mandated something that totally unecessary for most teens..
And? Not really fair to immediately ban kids who aren't vaccinated. Need to give some heads up.

We mandate other vaccines for school sports (and school in general), so not sure what the issue is with this one. Per the article, 75.4% of high schoolers 16-18 in the County are already vaccinated with at least one dose.
For things that can actually kill kids. Not for something that under 18 have a 99.995% survival rate from.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/a ... 5-percent/
Last edited by BDKJMU on Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:38 am @ganny

My mom and sister are teachers, and two of my best friends are teachers. None of them care about the masks.

Sure they'll ditch them as soon as possible, but it's not some big deal. None have complained about wearing them all day. I saw my sister yesterday and it wasn't even a point of discussion. Luckily she's had no difficult parents so far.
otherwise known as "anecdotal evidence". :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:44 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:45 am

And? Not really fair to immediately ban kids who aren't vaccinated. Need to give some heads up.

We mandate other vaccines for school sports (and school in general), so not sure what the issue is with this one. Per the article, 75.4% of high schoolers 16-18 in the County are already vaccinated with at least one dose.
For things that can actually kill kids. Not for something that under 18 have a 99.97% survival rate from.
False. Some of the vaccines cover diseases which kill less young people than Covid (HPV being one example with the male rate among teens being almost 0).

It's called prevention. And it's not only done to stop teens from getting it, but protecting the community as a whole. Schools are petri dishes which can spread disease into the rest of society.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:46 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:38 am @ganny

My mom and sister are teachers, and two of my best friends are teachers. None of them care about the masks.

Sure they'll ditch them as soon as possible, but it's not some big deal. None have complained about wearing them all day. I saw my sister yesterday and it wasn't even a point of discussion. Luckily she's had no difficult parents so far.
otherwise known as "anecdotal evidence". :coffee:

Ah, but ganny's wasn't. :roll:

Considering there isn't any uproar about masks here, neither by teachers or parents or kids, I don't think anyone besides a few are actually bothered by them, my anecdotal evidence is probably more reflective of the majority opinion (in my area) than not.
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:55 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:46 am

otherwise known as "anecdotal evidence". :coffee:

Ah, but granny's wasn't. :roll:

Considering there isn't any uproar about masks here, neither by teachers or parents or kids, I don't think anyone besides a few are actually bothered by them.
actually, I hadn't read GF's post prior to reading yours, but yes, his is anecdotal as well. There isn't an uproar where you're at because you live in a liberal stronghold, sheep, followers, get the drift? :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :kisswink:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:56 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:55 am


Ah, but granny's wasn't. :roll:

Considering there isn't any uproar about masks here, neither by teachers or parents or kids, I don't think anyone besides a few are actually bothered by them.
actually, I hadn't read GF's post prior to reading yours, but yes, his is anecdotal as well. There isn't an uproar where you're at because you live in a liberal stronghold, sheep, followers, get the drift? :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :kisswink:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:53 am
BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:44 am
For things that can actually kill kids. Not for something that under 18 have a 99.97% survival rate from.
False. Some of the vaccines cover diseases which kill less young people than Covid (HPV being one example with the male rate among teens being almost 0).

It's called prevention. And it's not only done to stop teens from getting it, but protecting the community as a whole. Schools are petri dishes which can spread disease into the rest of society.
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Not going to Europe anytime soon..

EU to Reimpose Travel Curbs on U.S. Amid Rise in Covid Cases
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/e ... ar-AANUcAO
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:05 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:53 am

False. Some of the vaccines cover diseases which kill less young people than Covid (HPV being one example with the male rate among teens being almost 0).

It's called prevention. And it's not only done to stop teens from getting it, but protecting the community as a whole. Schools are petri dishes which can spread disease into the rest of society.
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
I agree with that - I don't think school's have been big spreaders of COVID so far. Certainly schools are a disaster in flu seasons and for stuff like that, but I don't think there's been anything really seen yet that schools themselves are the spreading places for COVID, moreso the community at large has been.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:06 am Not going to Europe anytime soon..

EU to Reimpose Travel Curbs on U.S. Amid Rise in Covid Cases
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/e ... ar-AANUcAO
Well, we did tell them that we were going to open up the US to European travelers, but we never did reciprocate in the manner they opened up to us. We've been doing a lot of telling allies one thing and then not following through on it lately.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:05 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:53 am

False. Some of the vaccines cover diseases which kill less young people than Covid (HPV being one example with the male rate among teens being almost 0).

It's called prevention. And it's not only done to stop teens from getting it, but protecting the community as a whole. Schools are petri dishes which can spread disease into the rest of society.
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
I'd like to see the data on the Delta variant, but schools are ripe for community spread so we vaccinate kids from things that may not necessarily kill them. We also have no idea what the long-term effects of Covid are, although we're gaining a better understanding as time marches on.

I'd like to not risk an entire generation to covid's effects.
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:38 am @ganny

My mom and sister are teachers, and two of my best friends are teachers. None of them care about the masks.

Sure they'll ditch them as soon as possible, but it's not some big deal. None have complained about wearing them all day. I saw my sister yesterday and it wasn't even a point of discussion. Luckily she's had no difficult parents so far.
Well, like I said in my anectodal thing, my family have many teachers in it and I don't know a single one who doesn't think masks are a hinderance to them doing their jobs. And the vast majority of them are pro-masks in schools so it's not as if they are falling on just one political side of this. And my kids certainly don't like wearing them, despite (or maybe because) me making them wear them. I think the youngest will certainly wear a mask in our mask-optional school district, not sure if my high school boys will. They definitely won't wear them during sports (which never made much sense to me anyway).
Last edited by GannonFan on Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:12 am
BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:05 am
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
I'd like to see the data on the Delta variant, but schools are ripe for community spread so we vaccinate kids from things that may not necessarily kill them. We also have no idea, although getting a better understanding, or the long-term effects of Covid.

I'd like to not risk an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a virus.
But you’re fine risking an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a brand new vaccine.. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:14 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:12 am

I'd like to see the data on the Delta variant, but schools are ripe for community spread so we vaccinate kids from things that may not necessarily kill them. We also have no idea, although getting a better understanding, or the long-term effects of Covid.

I'd like to not risk an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a virus.
But you’re fine risking an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a brand new vaccine.. :coffee:
We do that every time we serve people scrapple. Been good so far. :thumb:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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GannonFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:12 am
BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:06 am Not going to Europe anytime soon..

EU to Reimpose Travel Curbs on U.S. Amid Rise in Covid Cases
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/e ... ar-AANUcAO
Well, we did tell them that we were going to open up the US to European travelers, but we never did reciprocate in the manner they opened up to us. We've been doing a lot of telling allies one thing and then not following through on it lately.
That can’t be. Biden pledged last fall to work closely with our allies, unlike the bad orange man.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:17 am
GannonFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:12 am

Well, we did tell them that we were going to open up the US to European travelers, but we never did reciprocate in the manner they opened up to us. We've been doing a lot of telling allies one thing and then not following through on it lately.
That can’t be. Biden pledged last fall to work closely with our allies, unlike the bad orange man.
Biden can't remember to call people back. But yes, he's done this to the Europeans and the Canadians already. America's Back indeed. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by ∞∞∞ »

BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:14 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:12 am

I'd like to see the data on the Delta variant, but schools are ripe for community spread so we vaccinate kids from things that may not necessarily kill them. We also have no idea, although getting a better understanding, or the long-term effects of Covid.

I'd like to not risk an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a virus.
But you’re fine risking an entire generation to the unknown long-term effects of a brand new vaccine.. :coffee:
We're not. People significantly more intelligent than you and me understand how molecules which make up vaccines break down in the body. Vaccines, even mRNA, aren't some new crazy thing.

The closest analogy is baking. The same ingredients can make different things, it just depends on the particular recipe. A good recipe will create delicious stuff (vaccine that works) and a bad one will create awful food (failed vaccine), but unless you're working with some unknown ingredient...neither risks killing you.

None of the ingredients in the Covid vaccines are unknowns. It's stuff we understand made into a concoction that tastes delicious.

In reality, it's unknown to you.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:56 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:55 am


Ah, but granny's wasn't. :roll:

Considering there isn't any uproar about masks here, neither by teachers or parents or kids, I don't think anyone besides a few are actually bothered by them.
actually, I hadn't read GF's post prior to reading yours, but yes, his is anecdotal as well. There isn't an uproar where you're at because you live in a liberal stronghold, sheep, followers, get the drift? :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :kisswink:
Someone has to balance the people who live in conservative strongholds, sheep, followers (i.e. MAGAts).
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:05 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:53 am

False. Some of the vaccines cover diseases which kill less young people than Covid (HPV being one example with the male rate among teens being almost 0).

It's called prevention. And it's not only done to stop teens from getting it, but protecting the community as a whole. Schools are petri dishes which can spread disease into the rest of society.
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
Don't take this as arguing with you...just it's appropriate given what you've posted.

It's anecdotal but FWIW, watching the cases spread in my school district (and as a corollary, knowing what areas of town those kids are from) has been interesting. There's an affluent school (more republican than democrat) nearby with 20 positive cases in 2 weeks with 150 kids in quarantine (that's just the elementary school). My daughter's school borders that one and is middle class (probably 50/50 Rep and Dem) and it's at 6 positive cases and 41 quarantined. It's interesting. The predominately black school - 135 quarantined/41 positive. :twocents:

The full scoreboard for the 1st, 2 weeks of school

Elementary
Positive - 120
In Quarantine - 765


Middle
Positive - 91
In Quarantine - 465

High School
Positive - 48
In Quarantine - 246

That's just the student population. The # of Quarantine/Positive for staff in all 3 are 9/13.

So the kids are the one's suffering...and not only that but if a kid is in quarantine, they now have to be home and put MORE stress on their parents/families. And if they're in quarantine then their siblings, in other classes and grades, go into quarantine. Which means their parents also might have to report and go into quarantine or WFH. It's disruptive. Quarantine begets quarantine begets quarantine. It's a vicious circle that's extremely disrupting. If it really mattered to people about getting back to normal, they'd take precautions. But I think so many people aren't looking at the bigger picture. They don't realize the cascading effect. It's more than surviving an illness...it's about getting back to normal in more ways than 1.
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BDKJMU
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

Ibanez wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:59 am
BDKJMU wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:05 am
Schools aren’t big soreaders. Even lefty sources admit that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... spreaders/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rs/616669/
Don't take this as arguing with you...just it's appropriate given what you've posted.

It's anecdotal but FWIW, watching the cases spread in my school district (and as a corollary, knowing what areas of town those kids are from) has been interesting. There's an affluent school (more republican than democrat) nearby with 20 positive cases in 2 weeks with 150 kids in quarantine (that's just the elementary school). My daughter's school borders that one and is middle class (probably 50/50 Rep and Dem) and it's at 6 positive cases and 41 quarantined. It's interesting. The predominately black school - 135 quarantined/41 positive. :twocents:

The full scoreboard for the 1st, 2 weeks of school

Elementary
Positive - 120
In Quarantine - 765


Middle
Positive - 91
In Quarantine - 465

High School
Positive - 48
In Quarantine - 246

That's just the student population. The # of Quarantine/Positive for staff in all 3 are 9/13.

So the kids are the one's suffering...and not only that but if a kid is in quarantine, they now have to be home and put MORE stress on their parents/families. And if they're in quarantine then their siblings, in other classes and grades, go into quarantine. Which means their parents also might have to report and go into quarantine or WFH. It's disruptive. Quarantine begets quarantine begets quarantine. It's a vicious circle that's extremely disrupting. If it really mattered to people about getting back to normal, they'd take precautions. But I think so many people aren't looking at the bigger picture. They don't realize the cascading effect. It's more than surviving an illness...it's about getting back to normal in more ways than 1.
Yeah, that’s alot. Of those 259 any hospitalized?

Sources (right, Europe, and even some left) were stating through this past Spring that studies showed the kids weren’t big spreaders..Doesn’t seem to be the case in your neck of the woods.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Part of a series, but I'll post the most relevant one:

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