The Worklessness Crisis

[kalm]

I’m reading Robinson’s book “Why You Should Be a Socialist”.
I guess the answer might be because leading capitalist minds don’t understand Econ 101 when it comes to labor.

His letter to the editor in the WSJ regarding an interview focusing on the Great Resignation…

Is this a sea change moment in our culture? Are things going to have to get much worse for workers…or much better? Or can we status quo our way out?

Mr. Ukueberuwa encourages us to fret about “mass worklessness,” with record numbers of people choosing to stay home rather than take jobs. Mr. Eberstadt says people are retiring “prematurely” and many, Mr. Ukueberuwa writes, lead “bleak, idle lives” and “probably would have been happier working.” He says we need to “stigmatize idleness.”

I would frame the matter differently: For people to agree to perform hired labor, they must be offered an attractive contract. If “managers everywhere are still waiting by their phones,” it is because they have not internalized Economics 101. They evidently do not realize that if you want something in a market, you must pay the going rate. If people are choosing not to work, preferring leisure, they would not “probably have been happier working.” If that were true, they would work.

To get them to alter their rational, self-interested calculus, employers must offer more attractive working arrangements: higher pay, more generous benefits, pleasant conditions and even unions. Workers’ labor is not something employers are entitled to out of generosity. If you want people to make different choices in a market, you must figure out their price and pay it.

Nathan J. Robinson

Editor in chief, Current Affairs

New Orleans

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1643327088

[AZGrizFan]

And how, pray tell, are they able to just “choose to not work”?

[kalm]

And how, pray tell, are they able to just “choose to not work”?

So in keeping with the theme…how are certain businesses supposed to function without employees?

[UNI88]

And how, pray tell, are they able to just “choose to not work”?

So in keeping with the theme…how are certain businesses supposed to function without employees?

So it's a game of chicken?

[SDHornet]

[kalm]

So in keeping with the theme…how are certain businesses supposed to function without employees?

So it's a game of chicken?

It kind of is.

[Winterborn]

My reply to Mr. Robinson and not coincidentally yourself is the below.

[kalm]

My reply to Mr. Robinson and not coincidentally yourself is the below.

I’m not getting it and I’m sure I’ll feel stupid when you explain it.

[AZGrizFan]

And how, pray tell, are they able to just “choose to not work”?

So in keeping with the theme…how are certain businesses supposed to function without employees?

Nice complete avoidance, buttnugget. Businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees. So I ask again: How is an able-bodied person able to just “choose not to work”? How do they put a roof over their heads? Food on their table? iPhones for their passel of kids? A couple big screen TV’s? XBoxes? Etc., etc? You know….the “essentials”?

[kalm]

So in keeping with the theme…how are certain businesses supposed to function without employees?

Nice complete avoidance, buttnugget. Businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees. So I ask again: How is an able-bodied person able to just “choose not to work”? How do they put a roof over their heads? Food on their table? iPhones for their passel of kids? A couple big screen TV’s? XBoxes? Etc., etc? You know….the “essentials”?

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

[UNI88]

Nice complete avoidance, buttnugget. Businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees. So I ask again: How is an able-bodied person able to just “choose not to work”? How do they put a roof over their heads? Food on their table? iPhones for their passel of kids? A couple big screen TV’s? XBoxes? Etc., etc? You know….the “essentials”?

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

[kalm]

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

Don’t disagree. There are consequences. We’ve all talked about automation before as well as efficiency gains (more with less).

But you still need workers. Not just for various industries and admin. and maintenance of automation but the economy needs them as customers, renters, depositors…

So it’s not just THEIR gamble. It involves all of us. So your quip about chicken ain’t far off. At least that’s what the centrrisssxtrll me.

“Back to the mines” ain’t gonna cut it.

[GannonFan]

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

[Ibanez]

I'll give this from my personal experience of hiring people over the last few months - there's been a lot less focus on degrees and having 3-5 or 5-7 years experience and more weight given to skills. I'm still looking at degree's but I honestly haven't cared if you have a masters or not (and I know lot of other hiring managers are feeling the same way). I care about skills, professional certs, proof that you are acquiring skills and/or using those skills elsewhere.

Even with that "relaxed" perspective, I still have only 2-3 candidates that actually make it through the filters and pass recruiters.

[Ibanez]

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

Civilian Conservation Corps-esque work.

[UNI88]

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

Civilian Conservation Corps-esque work.

That might be harder work for lower pay then what people are walking away from.

[AZGrizFan]

Nice complete avoidance, buttnugget. Businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees. So I ask again: How is an able-bodied person able to just “choose not to work”? How do they put a roof over their heads? Food on their table? iPhones for their passel of kids? A couple big screen TV’s? XBoxes? Etc., etc? You know….the “essentials”?

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

Yeah, because business models NEVER change. here’s a small example of how we (as a financial institution struggling to find people willing to work) have adapted: We used to have 200 call center agents answering phone calls. Now we have an automated “assistant” that allows EACH call center rep (and we’re down about 50 at this point), to hold up to SIX conversations simultaneously.

What does a grocery store do? Put in self check-out lanes.
What does fast food do? Automate the ordering process.
What does amazon do? Delivery robots instead of a fleet of drivers.
What does the trucking industry do? Driverless trucks.

Now, how about you answer MY question? And instead of HOW can they do it, WHY should they be allowed to do it on the backs of those who ARE willing to work? Because you KNOW that’s where the money is coming from. Why should MY taxes go up so these fucking freeloaders can game the system and not work at all?

[AZGrizFan]

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

They have something to offer. They don’t WANT to offer it. THey’d rather freeload. So the problem/question is….should they be allowed to?

[SDHornet]

This isn't happening in a static environment. Business and employees are adapting. Like AZ said, "businesses are finding ways to work without nearly as many employees" - McDonalds is automating everything they can. This is a gamble that will pay off for some (probably the most skilled) and backfire for others when they find the jobs they could have been done have been automated.

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

Start a war in Eastern Europe and use them as fodder...at least that what it looks like Biden is going for these days.

[SDHornet]

It literally fits Robinson’s satire. When you resort to name calling so early you’ve already lost the argument, twatscratcher.

The point, is they both need each other. How does a bank lend money to businesses if the businesses have no revenue because they have no workers?

See? Of course you don’t. Nevermind.

Yeah, because business models NEVER change. here’s a small example of how we (as a financial institution struggling to find people willing to work) have adapted: We used to have 200 call center agents answering phone calls. Now we have an automated “assistant” that allows EACH call center rep (and we’re down about 50 at this point), to hold up to SIX conversations simultaneously.

What does a grocery store do? Put in self check-out lanes.
What does fast food do? Automate the ordering process.
What does amazon do? Delivery robots instead of a fleet of drivers.
What does the trucking industry do? Driverless trucks.

Now, how about you answer MY question? And instead of HOW can they do it, WHY should they be allowed to do it on the backs of those who ARE willing to work? Because you KNOW that’s where the money is coming from. Why should MY taxes go up so these fucking freeloaders can game the system and not work at all?

That's where the conservation corps idea (should) come into play. Want that welfare check and food stamps? Do community service somewhere and earn that handout. Hell, don't care if it's walking around the block and picking up trash for a couple hours a week. Just fucking do something.

[CID1990]

Choosing not to work sounds awfully privileged to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ibanez]

This has really been the direction of things for a long time. People bemoan that America doesn't make things anymore, that we're just a service economy and manufacturing went away. But that's not really the case, we make more stuff now than ever in this country - manufacturing is, and has been, booming. However, we do it with a fraction of the labor that was required to do it before. Automation, or just re-engineering, has been going on in America for decades, and you just don't need the skilled labor anymore to do most of the work. And it's not a bad thing. Having an automated eye on the line catch, say, a poorly labeled can of paint, is far better than having a person sit there for 8 hours in a row staring at paint cans going by. That kind of work is drudgery and we should have machines do that.

With all that being said, the problem is always going to be, eventually, what do you do with all the people who now don't seem to have anything to offer in terms of labor or work? What do they do? Does society just become one big Wall-E movie where people grow corpulent and float around on chairs all day with nothing to do?

They have something to offer. They don’t WANT to offer it. THey’d rather freeload. So the problem/question is….should they be allowed to?

The other problem with the freeloaders is that eventually they'll get bored staying home doing nothing and they'll get into trouble. I'm not saying it's 100% of the time but we know that idleness in youth and people who are expecting others to foot the bill are gong to engage in stupid, dangerous and/or criminal behavior.

[Ibanez]

Yeah, because business models NEVER change. here’s a small example of how we (as a financial institution struggling to find people willing to work) have adapted: We used to have 200 call center agents answering phone calls. Now we have an automated “assistant” that allows EACH call center rep (and we’re down about 50 at this point), to hold up to SIX conversations simultaneously.

What does a grocery store do? Put in self check-out lanes.
What does fast food do? Automate the ordering process.
What does amazon do? Delivery robots instead of a fleet of drivers.
What does the trucking industry do? Driverless trucks.

Now, how about you answer MY question? And instead of HOW can they do it, WHY should they be allowed to do it on the backs of those who ARE willing to work? Because you KNOW that’s where the money is coming from. Why should MY taxes go up so these fucking freeloaders can game the system and not work at all?

That's where the conservation corps idea (should) come into play. Want that welfare check and food stamps? Do community service somewhere and earn that handout. Hell, don't care if it's walking around the block and picking up trash for a couple hours a week. Just fucking do something.

Exactly. I had a long post typed out but lost it and then got busy with work. That's exactly what the CCC should be. You don't "want" to work but you want the Gov't to subsidize you, fine...but you're working for that money. We need ditches dug, trash picked up, forests to be cleared, river banks cleaned, etc...

[Ibanez]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/perspect ... index.html

The pandemic accelerated technology adoption, but workforce training programs haven't kept pace. The chasm between the skills of today and the jobs of tomorrow will widen as demand for technological, social, emotional and higher cognitive skills grows. Developing iron-clad, scalable training programs is an important long-term strategy.
An estimated 17 million US workers will need to be reskilled and redeployed into new occupations to remain employed by 2030, according to a 2021 McKinsey report. This may be especially disruptive for women, for whom long-established barriers and "double shifts" with work at home and "triple shifts" — with extra responsibilities many have assumed in the workplace — could make career transitions even more difficult.
Business leaders should explore more ways to offer their employees education outside the workplace, or as part of onboarding or continuous learning. They can also prioritize short, flexible courses that follow the boot-camp model, teaching new skills in weeks or months rather than years.

[kalm]

Choosing not to work sounds awfully privileged to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very true!

They won’t survive the guillotine either.