Coronavirus COVID-19

[JohnStOnge]

Yup, it just points to prior infections leading to natural immunity, and an immunity that has been substantially better than the immunity that vaccinated people get who had not been previously infected.

I don't know if it's as simple as that. If you read the study, the vaccines were more effective against the original strains. Natural immunity was more effective after Delta came to predominate. The study does not address the situation with respect to Omicron. It also does not address the effect of boosting.

[SeattleGriz]

Yup, it just points to prior infections leading to natural immunity, and an immunity that has been substantially better than the immunity that vaccinated people get who had not been previously infected.

I don't know if it's as simple as that. If you read the study, the vaccines were more effective against the original strains. Natural immunity was more effective after Delta came to predominate. The study does not address the situation with respect to Omicron. It also does not address the effect of boosting.

Yes it is. Natural immunity confers 55 epitopes of coverage plus mucosal IgA secretion. Whereas vaccine immunity only provides 5 epitopes.

You can stop shilling for the vaccines. They did their job, although they were unfortunately oversold by everyone except the vaccine makers. They told everyone they would only reduce risk of mild to moderate illness if infected. Nothing more, nothing less.

They acted just like Flu vaccines. They helped to lower hospitalizations and deaths, but didn't prevent spread. It's okay. A shit ton of people will now live that pre vaccine would not have.

[JohnStOnge]

The author has a history of writing misleading editorials in the Wall Street Journal. See https://healthfeedback.org/evaluation/m ... pril-2021/.

He is a cancer surgeon. He is not a virologist, immunologist, are epidemiologist. Doesn't mean he HAS to be wrong. But he's made unsubstantiated statements before. He's one of those "Herd Immunity" guys. If I were you, I would take the opinion of the CDC over this guy. Since I can't tell what he's referencing in his article because he's not specific, it'll be hard to check.

But, to me, this is yet another example of a conservative media entity, the Wall Street Journal Editorial section, finding an outlier person who appears to have some credentials to try to validate an outlier point of view.

BTW his institution, Johns Hopkins, does not appear to share his point of view. See https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... ed-to-know.

Ivy and Cid stated it clearly...you are a fraud. Sneaky and clever, but still a fraud.

You try to dump on the WSJ article by posting an article from a Leftist organization nobody has ever heard of before. They try to pass themselves off as "non-partisan", but a quick look at their funding and donor lists tell a much different story.

His institution didn't come out against his views, just the two colleagues who wrote the article you posted. Another one of your exaggerations you try to pass off as fact.

Health Feedback is not leftist. By the source I use it is a "pro science" with a "very high" factual reporting rating.

With respect to John Hopkins' position: Go to Johns Hopkins Medicine at https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org. When you get there, click on "COVID Safety." When you get to the next page click on "COVID-18 Testing & Vaccinations." When you get to that page note the language "We encourage COVID-19 vaccines for anyone who is eligible to be vaccinated."

With respect to the two colleagues who wrote the article I posed, can you find something on the Johns Hopkins Website by the author of that Wall Street Journal Article expressing a contrary point of view? Johns Hopkins posted the piece by those two saying what they said. Is there something on the Johns Hopkins website by the guy who wrote that Wall Street Journal article?

Google "Johns Hopkins postion on natural immunity vs. vaccine immunity." It will become clear to you that Johns Hopkins takes the position that you should be vaccinated whether you have been previously infected with COVID-19 or not.

[JohnStOnge]

Ok. Let's do this:

Go to https://coronavirus.jhu.edu. You will be at the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center. Click on the "Topics" drop down then click on "Vaccines." Click on the "Vaccine FAQ" dropdown. Scroll down to find "Vaccines FAQ." Scroll down to find "If I already had Covid-19, should I still get a vaccine?"

The answer is:

Yes. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that people who have had Covid-19 should still be vaccinated because of the severe health risks associated with Covid-19 and the fact that reinfection is possible.

I do not think the guy who wrote that Wall Street Journal article is going to get support from Johns Hopkins when he is disagreeing with the CDC.

Johns Hopkins allows intellectual freedom for its staff as it should. But Johns Hopkins as an institution does not agree with that guy.

[SeattleGriz]

Ok. Let's do this:

Go to https://coronavirus.jhu.edu. You will be at the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center. Click on the "Topics" drop down then click on "Vaccines." Click on the "Vaccine FAQ" dropdown. Scroll down to find "Vaccines FAQ." Scroll down to find "If I already had Covid-19, should I still get a vaccine?"

The answer is:

Yes. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that people who have had Covid-19 should still be vaccinated because of the severe health risks associated with Covid-19 and the fact that reinfection is possible.

I do not think the guy who wrote that Wall Street Journal article is going to get support from Johns Hopkins when he is disagreeing with the CDC.

Johns Hopkins allows intellectual freedom for its staff as it should. But Johns Hopkins as an institution does not agree with that guy.

You should really watch this clip and realize I am calling you out as academia.

[SDHornet]

[SDHornet]

What are you all seeing in the news about the trucker convoy in Canada? Trudeau already went into hiding and now they are trying to blame the convoy on the Russians.

It's been lovely. Saw supporters raised enough money to keep them parked in Ottawa for 2 years.

[SDHornet]

Community spread - hospitalizations - deaths are what have driven the pandemic and as a byproduct have led to mandates. Still a pandemic of the unvaccinated. If you are opposed to lockdowns and business social distancing requirements you should be pro-vaccine.

46x Higher
in Unvaccinated Adults
Ages 50-64 years

52x Higher
in Unvaccinated Adults
Ages 65 Years and Older

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke ... accination

Anyone that has bought into and spread this narrative is a fucking moron.

[SDHornet]

[kalm]

Community spread - hospitalizations - deaths are what have driven the pandemic and as a byproduct have led to mandates. Still a pandemic of the unvaccinated. If you are opposed to lockdowns and business social distancing requirements you should be pro-vaccine.



https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke ... accination

Anyone that has bought into and spread this narrative is a fucking moron.

Numbers bad! Hurt feelings!

[SeattleGriz]

Anyone that has bought into and spread this narrative is a fucking moron.

Numbers bad! Hurt feelings!

If you actually look at the UK numbers, the vaccinated are dwarfing the unvaccinated in cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

I keep going back to the UK because they actually give useful stats, unlike our CDC which stopped tracking breakthrough cases back in May...right at the point where the vaccines started failing.

Have a look at week 4. Starting on page 43.

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ce-reports

[Gil Dobie]

Numbers bad! Hurt feelings!

If you actually look at the UK numbers, the vaccinated are dwarfing the unvaccinated in cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

I keep going back to the UK because they actually give useful stats, unlike our CDC which stopped tracking breakthrough cases back in May...right at the point where the vaccines started failing.

Have a look at week 4. Starting on page 43.

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ce-reports

Can you please clarify your general statement(s) above. I think answering the questions below would give us a real sense of what is going on. And please include assumptions like lifestyle of each category.

1. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people getting covid?
2. What is the percent of unvaccinated people getting covid?
3. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
4. What is the percent of unvaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
5. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people dying from covid?
6. What is the percent of unvaccinated people dying from covid?

[SeattleGriz]

If you actually look at the UK numbers, the vaccinated are dwarfing the unvaccinated in cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

I keep going back to the UK because they actually give useful stats, unlike our CDC which stopped tracking breakthrough cases back in May...right at the point where the vaccines started failing.

Have a look at week 4. Starting on page 43.

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ce-reports

Can you please clarify your general statement(s) above. I think answering the questions below would give us a real sense of what is going on. And please include assumptions like lifestyle of each category.

1. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people getting covid?
2. What is the percent of unvaccinated people getting covid?
3. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
4. What is the percent of unvaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
5. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people dying from covid?
6. What is the percent of unvaccinated people dying from covid?

Tell you what Gil. When the CDC provides this data to back up the claim, pandemic of the unvaccinated, I'll provide mine.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is about total cases in each category, not rates.

[Gil Dobie]

Can you please clarify your general statement(s) above. I think answering the questions below would give us a real sense of what is going on. And please include assumptions like lifestyle of each category.

1. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people getting covid?
2. What is the percent of unvaccinated people getting covid?
3. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
4. What is the percent of unvaccinated people hospitalized with covid?
5. What is the percent of fully vaccinated people dying from covid?
6. What is the percent of unvaccinated people dying from covid?

Tell you what Gil. When the CDC provides this data to back up the claim, pandemic of the unvaccinated, I'll provide mine.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is about total cases in each category, not rates.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:00 am

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

[SeattleGriz]

Tell you what Gil. When the CDC provides this data to back up the claim, pandemic of the unvaccinated, I'll provide mine.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is about total cases in each category, not rates.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:00 am

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

Sorry, cases. But look at the data. Over 500k in the under 18 crowd with very few hospitalizations or deaths.. It proves the point of, "if you want cases, test more".

Could you provide me with a study comparing rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated you approve of?

You didn't even like the 842k matched cohort study on vaccine effectiveness I posted. Compared the medical researchers to Iraqi hackers.

[Gil Dobie]

Sorry, cases. But look at the data. Over 500k in the under 18 crowd with very few hospitalizations or deaths.. It proves the point of, "if you want cases, test more".

Could you provide me with a study comparing rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated you approve of?

You didn't even like the 842k matched cohort study on vaccine effectiveness I posted. Compared the medical researchers to Iraqi hackers.

Hacker farms do the same making points by generalization. You have not shown me any statistics that show vaccines do not work, and that being unvaccinated is better than being vaccinated, which appears to be your point. Until then, I will stick to what the medical profession is telling me. Not you, not the CDC, not Biden, not Trump, not Rogan, not Neil Young, and not Fauci, etc, etc.

[UNI88]

Sorry, cases. But look at the data. Over 500k in the under 18 crowd with very few hospitalizations or deaths.. It proves the point of, "if you want cases, test more".

Could you provide me with a study comparing rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated you approve of?

You didn't even like the 842k matched cohort study on vaccine effectiveness I posted. Compared the medical researchers to Iraqi hackers.

Wouldn't you also need to know total vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

50% of hospitalizations are vaccinated means something different if 75% of the population is vaccinated then it does if 25% of the population is vaccinated.

[SeattleGriz]

Sorry, cases. But look at the data. Over 500k in the under 18 crowd with very few hospitalizations or deaths.. It proves the point of, "if you want cases, test more".

Could you provide me with a study comparing rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated you approve of?

You didn't even like the 842k matched cohort study on vaccine effectiveness I posted. Compared the medical researchers to Iraqi hackers.

Hacker farms do the same making points by generalization. You have not shown me any statistics that show vaccines do not work, and that being unvaccinated is better than being vaccinated, which appears to be your point. Until then, I will stick to what the medical profession is telling me. Not you, not the CDC, not Biden, not Trump, not Rogan, not Neil Young, and not Fauci, etc, etc.

Good. Everyone should be making their own choices. For what it is worth, I'm on record in this thread as saying I thought you did it right. I pay attention to how active people are, and I see that in your posts. You're older, so you got vaxxed. That was the right choice for you. You've done everything you were supposed to as far as I can tell, especially the keeping active part.

I am saying nothing more than an obvious truth. In the beginning, this was a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Now that large majorities of vaccinated people are catching Delta and Omicron, we are seeing higher totals shift towards the vaccinated, as expected. It's simply sheer numbers at this point. The vaccinated is a larger pool, especially in the UK, and the unvaccinated pool has been cleaned out quit a bit over the last 18 months.

I made no claim that being unvaccinated was better than vaccinated.

The really stupid part to all of this? It was always going to clean out the unvaccinated first and then move on to the vaccinated as the virus mutated. But somewhere, someone decided to turn a natural process into vilification of the unvaccinated. This was always going to happen when the vaccines could not provide lasting protection.

Same thing with the phrase asymptomatic spreaders. Used to scare people.

Same thing with the unvaccinated being variant factories.

[SeattleGriz]

Sorry, cases. But look at the data. Over 500k in the under 18 crowd with very few hospitalizations or deaths.. It proves the point of, "if you want cases, test more".

Could you provide me with a study comparing rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated you approve of?

You didn't even like the 842k matched cohort study on vaccine effectiveness I posted. Compared the medical researchers to Iraqi hackers.

Wouldn't you also need to know total vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

50% of hospitalizations are vaccinated means something different if 75% of the population is vaccinated then it does if 25% of the population is vaccinated.

Yep. That is one of the reasons Public Health England does not want you comparing rates of unvaccinated to vaccinated. They say they cannot account for how many unvaccinated there really are, and thus introduces a bias to the rates. You only get to look at them. Not think about them!

It was pretty funny to see Public Health England start adding disclaimers when the rates flipped to higher in the vaxxed. Love how they also changed the font color for unvaxxed cases to light grey and dropped the bar chart. They're serious about you not comparing rates but weren't when the reports first started coming out. No warnings about comparisons back when the unvaxxed were at higher rates.

[BDKJMU]

Ireland dropped most COVID restrictions last Saturday:
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 022-01-21/

UK ending mask and vaccine mandate restrictions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60147766

Denmark to End Most COVID Restrictions and 'Welcome the Life We Knew Before'
https://www.newsweek.com/denmark-end-mo ... re-1673373

Common sense spreading. Now add Finland..
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus- ... 94d7d568d1

[UNI88]

Ireland dropped most COVID restrictions last Saturday:
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 022-01-21/

UK ending mask and vaccine mandate restrictions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60147766

Denmark to End Most COVID Restrictions and 'Welcome the Life We Knew Before'
https://www.newsweek.com/denmark-end-mo ... re-1673373

Common sense spreading. Now add Finland..
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus- ... 94d7d568d1

Is this BDK asking "why can't we be more like Europe?"

[AZGrizFan]

Common sense spreading. Now add Finland..
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus- ... 94d7d568d1

Is this BDK asking "why can't we be more like Europe?"

And how ironic is it that socialist countries are figuring this out before the great last land of the free?

[JohnStOnge]

I don't know if it's as simple as that. If you read the study, the vaccines were more effective against the original strains. Natural immunity was more effective after Delta came to predominate. The study does not address the situation with respect to Omicron. It also does not address the effect of boosting.

Yes it is. Natural immunity confers 55 epitopes of coverage plus mucosal IgA secretion. Whereas vaccine immunity only provides 5 epitopes.

You can stop shilling for the vaccines. They did their job, although they were unfortunately oversold by everyone except the vaccine makers. They told everyone they would only reduce risk of mild to moderate illness if infected. Nothing more, nothing less.

They acted just like Flu vaccines. They helped to lower hospitalizations and deaths, but didn't prevent spread. It's okay. A shit ton of people will now live that pre vaccine would not have.

If you look at the paper (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/ ... 04e1-H.pdf), you can see that they reported relative rates for two weeks that came at different points of the pandemic. Here is a description of the first week:

During the week beginning May 30, 2021, compared with COVID-19 case rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, COVID-19 case rates were 19.9-fold (California) and 18.4-fold (New York) lower among vaccinated persons without a previous diagnosis; 7.2 fold California) and 9.9-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis; and 9.6-fold California) and 8.5-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis

So, during that week, the numbers said vaccination was substantially more protective than being previously infected was.

Here is a description of the second week:

By the week beginning October 3, compared with COVID-19 cases rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, case rates among vaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis were 6.2-fold (California) and 4.5-fold (New York) lower; rates were substantially lower among both groups with previous COVID-19 diagnoses, including 29.0-fold (California) and 14.7-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis, and 32.5-fold (California) and 19.8-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous diagnosis of COVID-19.

During that week, natural infection offered greater protection. As an aside, it's kind of weird that, if we forget about vaccines and just look at natural immunity, it looks like natural immunity offered better protection against the Delta variant than it did against the set of variants that were dominant in May. For example: In May the case rate for previously infected people in California was 9.6 fold lower than it was for people in California who had not been previously infected. In October it was 29 fold lower.

Also, the data were generated before the effect of boosters could be assessed. Thus the authors wrote:

Similar data accounting for booster doses and as new variants, including Omicron, circulate will need to be assessed.

The study does no support making the blanket statement, "Natural immunity acquired via getting infected with COVID-19 provides more protection than getting a COVID-19 vaccine does."

Now, if you think something you read that "Natural immunity confers 55 epitopes of coverage plus mucosal IgA secretion" means natural immunity is more protective, you may or may not be correct. I don't think you really know. I think you read that in an argument for the proposition you saw somewhere. But the numbers in the report we are discussing does not support the proposition. They reported one set of circumstances under which the vaccines were more effective and another set of circumstances where natural immunity was. And they noted that more study is needed to assess what happens with other variants and booster effects.

[JohnStOnge]

Numbers bad! Hurt feelings!

If you actually look at the UK numbers, the vaccinated are dwarfing the unvaccinated in cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

I keep going back to the UK because they actually give useful stats, unlike our CDC which stopped tracking breakthrough cases back in May...right at the point where the vaccines started failing.

Have a look at week 4. Starting on page 43.

On an interesting note, look at how random testing is driving the case rate in the under 18 crowd.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ce-reports

I'm not even going to look again because every time I look after you cite that source I see that, again, you are interpreting data in a way the the authors of the report explicitly tell you not to interpret the data.

[JohnStOnge]

Ireland dropped most COVID restrictions last Saturday:
https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 022-01-21/

UK ending mask and vaccine mandate restrictions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60147766

Denmark to End Most COVID Restrictions and 'Welcome the Life We Knew Before'
https://www.newsweek.com/denmark-end-mo ... re-1673373

Common sense spreading. Now add Finland..
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus- ... 94d7d568d1

Ireland (77%), UK (72%), Denmark (81%) and Finland (75%) all have >70% full vaccination rates. You may notice that Denmark's Prime Minister referenced a low serious illness rate in the Newsweek article:

Natural immunity confers 55 epitopes of coverage plus mucosal IgA secretion

Ireland had 10 COVID-19 deaths per million population during the week ending yesterday, the UK had 27, and Denmark had 23 (Worldometers). The United States has a 64% full vaccination rate and had 49 deaths per million population during the week ending yesterday.