Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

JohnStOnge wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:42 pm
GannonFan wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:41 pm

They literally said people had to get boosters because the vaccine was not very effective against Omicron at all. And how many people ended up getting boosters? Hey, I'm pro-vaccine and pro-booster, when they let me get the 4th shot I'll do it in a heartbeat. But you're being dishonest here, the powers that be were very clear that the vaccines, without boosters, were not very effective against Omicron, and that people had to get boosted. We didn't have a big percentage of people get their boosters (not even half of the people who originally got the first vaccine) and yet Omicron came and went pretty quickly (just like it did everywhere in the world). Clearly something other than the vaccine was contributing to this. That's not even controversial. :coffee:
Who is they? Mayo Clinic? I just Googled around again to make sure nothing has changed since I last looked into it and it looks to me like it's still the case that it looks like the two dose vaccination regime was fairly effective at first against symptomatic Omicron disease then waned over time. Also it was fairly effective against severe disease and/or death for a fairly extended period.

I do agree that Omicron was going to come and go quickly regardless.
Stop being cute, for someone who constantly talks about intelligence you often seem to display a glaring lack of one. The concern with the vaccine was that so many people got fully vaccinated in the January to June timeframe of 2021 and by the time Omicron came around in November of the same year the effectiveness was considerably less to the point that protection was minimal. Of course if someone was vaccinated just in November they were better off. That's what was meant by the vaccine not being effective against Omicron, the vaccination that most people got had waned so much that there was much higher risk. Go and Google that Einstein. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:47 pm
GannonFan wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:21 am
Problem is, there are no studies that can assess how the vaccine will do against variants that haven't happened yet.
They are working on a "Pan-coronavirus" vaccine:

https://www.biospace.com/article/united ... s-vaccine/

Let's hope they succeed.
Why do you want to keep poking the "viral" bear? How about we leave it alone and live with it?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

Poland says Blinken is a big fat fucking liar.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Ivytalk »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:38 pm Poland says Blinken is a big fat fucking liar.
Such language! What would your pastor say?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by CAA Flagship »

Ivytalk wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:23 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:38 pm Poland says Blinken is a big fat fucking liar.
Such language! What would your pastor say?
Pastor:

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ivytalk wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:23 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:38 pm Poland says Blinken is a big fat fucking liar.
Such language! What would your pastor say?
Crap. Wrong thread.

My pastor would say that swearing does not make me an edgy or a cool Christian. Actually had a message on it! Looks as if I failed...again. :lol:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:50 am
Ivytalk wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:23 pm Such language! What would your pastor say?
Crap. Wrong thread.

My pastor would say that swearing does not make me an edgy or a cool Christian. Actually had a message on it! Looks as if I failed...again. :lol:
What if it's the truth? Should you lie to avoid swearing? :)
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:53 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:50 am

Crap. Wrong thread.

My pastor would say that swearing does not make me an edgy or a cool Christian. Actually had a message on it! Looks as if I failed...again. :lol:
What if it's the truth? Should you lie to avoid swearing? :)
Not sure, but I bet I puts me somewhere in this video.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by CAA Flagship »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:50 am
Ivytalk wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:23 pm

Such language! What would your pastor say?
Crap. Wrong thread.

My pastor would say that swearing does not make me an edgy or a cool Christian. Actually had a message on it! Looks as if I failed...again. :lol:
Speaking of pastor quotes, heard a good one at church last week. Priest said it's some old Hebrew saying:
I hear. I forget.
I see. I remember.
I do. I understand.

That's some solid Joobagelry right there. :nod:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

GannonFan wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:01 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:42 pm

Who is they? Mayo Clinic? I just Googled around again to make sure nothing has changed since I last looked into it and it looks to me like it's still the case that it looks like the two dose vaccination regime was fairly effective at first against symptomatic Omicron disease then waned over time. Also it was fairly effective against severe disease and/or death for a fairly extended period.

I do agree that Omicron was going to come and go quickly regardless.
Stop being cute, for someone who constantly talks about intelligence you often seem to display a glaring lack of one. The concern with the vaccine was that so many people got fully vaccinated in the January to June timeframe of 2021 and by the time Omicron came around in November of the same year the effectiveness was considerably less to the point that protection was minimal. Of course if someone was vaccinated just in November they were better off. That's what was meant by the vaccine not being effective against Omicron, the vaccination that most people got had waned so much that there was much higher risk. Go and Google that Einstein. :coffee:
I did Google it. I also Googled it pretty regularly while the situation was developing. I don't recall a lot of statements by experts that two dose vaccination with Pfizer or Moderna was not effective at all. The impression I came away with was that those who had received two doses were not as well protected from symptomatic illness as we'd like but were still fairly well protected against severe illness and/or death. And of course it was said that it was better with the booster. I wasn't being cute when asked who you were referring to. Since y'all had discussed the Mayo Clinic I was wondering if you were looking at something on the Mayo Clinic site. I actually went looking to see if I could find something there.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

I can't recall if I've posted a link to the study at https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/2/08-1167_article before but I was reminded of it because I referenced it in a recent debate with a colleague who is in the "masks don't work" crowd.

It was published in 2009 so it pre-dates COVID-19. The condition the investigators were looking at is influenza-like illness (ILI). But I think their experience is instructive. It is an actual randomized, controlled experiment. Here, from the abstract, is the statement that really caught my eye:
We found that adherence to mask use significantly reduced the risk for ILI-associated infection, but <50% of participants wore masks most of the time. We concluded that household use of face masks is associated with low adherence and is ineffective for controlling seasonal respiratory disease.
In other words, mask use worked. But the treatment did not because the treatment assigned was household use of face masks and when they assigned households to use masks they didn't get a high rate of mask use. The takeaway is that, if ONLY they could get people to actually wear the masks most o the time, it would work. But the reality is they couldn't get enough people to wear masks most of the time.

They looked at P2, which are N95, and surgical face masks. If you go to Table 5 at https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/2/08-1167-t5, you can see that they combined the two for overall mask use and they got 99% confidence that mask use in general reduced risk WHEN people actually used them.

When it comes to looking at each type of mask individually the confidence levels they report for the N95 is 94% and the one they report for the surgical mask is 91%. But you can tell from the confidence interval statements that they are using two tailed tests. I would argue that using a one tailed test would be reasonable and if you do that the confidence level for the N95 is 97% and that for surgical masks is 95.5%.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

Now comes the time for trying to rehabilitate their images. I know I vilified you, but whoops, I was wrong. Let's let bygones be bygones, Chum?

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SDHornet wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:27 pm JSO still flailing around trying to get anyone to buy into the narratives like he has is pretty comical. :lol:

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:04 pm Now comes the time for trying to rehabilitate their images. I know I vilified you, but whoops, I was wrong. Let's let bygones be bygones, Chum?

That guy saying he now thinks they're correct doesn't make them correct. I have seen nothing to suggest that the overwhelming majority opinion against the Great Barrington Declaration among epidemiologist, infectious disease specialists, etc., has changed.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:04 pm Now comes the time for trying to rehabilitate their images. I know I vilified you, but whoops, I was wrong. Let's let bygones be bygones, Chum?

I just listened to his video and I think he's operating on a false premise. I think the false premise is that we now know lockdowns had little effect on mortality. I suspect he is saying that because of a recent report by three economists at Johns Hopkins that made that case. The report has not yet been peer reviewed. But there is earlier research that concluded that lockdowns saved millions of lives. I think Politifact provides a good summary of the situation at https://www.politifact.com/article/2022 ... -19-death/.

The Politifact article links an assessment in Nature that concludes lockdowns substantially reduced cases and deaths. That article is at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7.pdf. Here is a quote:
We find that across 11 countries 3.1 (2.8–3.5) million deaths have been averted owing to interventions since the beginning of the epidemic;
You can see what they mean by "interventions" in this quote from the abstract:
Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large efect on reducing transmission.
The guy seems to be saying, during his statement, that there hasn't been research suggesting lockdowns had a significant effect on mortality. That is pretty self-evidently not true.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:17 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:04 pm Now comes the time for trying to rehabilitate their images. I know I vilified you, but whoops, I was wrong. Let's let bygones be bygones, Chum?

I just listened to his video and I think he's operating on a false premise. I think the false premise is that we now know lockdowns had little effect on mortality. I suspect he is saying that because of a recent report by three economists at Johns Hopkins that made that case. The report has not yet been peer reviewed. But there is earlier research that concluded that lockdowns saved millions of lives. I think Politifact provides a good summary of the situation at https://www.politifact.com/article/2022 ... -19-death/.

The Politifact article links an assessment in Nature that concludes lockdowns substantially reduced cases and deaths. That article is at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7.pdf. Here is a quote:
We find that across 11 countries 3.1 (2.8–3.5) million deaths have been averted owing to interventions since the beginning of the epidemic;
You can see what they mean by "interventions" in this quote from the abstract:
Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large efect on reducing transmission.
The guy seems to be saying, during his statement, that there hasn't been research suggesting lockdowns had a significant effect on mortality. That is pretty self-evidently not true.
Little tip for you. If you have to use PolitiFact to make your case, your case is weak. And don't even think of quoting Wikipedia.

Lastly, the article PolitiFact references, was submitted in March of 2020. Yeah, that was a great time to evaluate the end product of lockdowns.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

If the guy is saying what he's saying because of the study at https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files ... tality.pdf, it is controversial. It was not done by epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, or anything like that. It was done by economists. Doesn't mean they have to be wrong just because they are economists. But I don't think people ought to be jumping on it as though it is the definitive piece on the matter.

I wish I could see the article at https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968401. You can see what the title says. But you have to log in to get the content. There is content in the article at https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022020 ... aths-study.

A couple of interesting quotes:
“Smoking causes cancer, the earth is round, and ordering people to stay at home (the correct definition of lockdown) decreases disease transmission,” Seth Flaxman, associate professor in the Department of Computer Science at the University of Oxford, said in a statement. “. None of this is controversial among scientists. A study purporting to prove the opposite is almost certain to be fundamentally flawed.”
The findings, which have not been peer reviewed, conflict with previous studies that found lockdowns worked.
And this is the really prescient quote:
Many conservatives have seized on the paper to argue that lockdowns never worked and to criticize governments that implemented them.
And that's the way it goes. Even though previous studies have suggested that lockdowns did work from a public health standpoint, conservatives have seized upon a study by three economists wading into epidemiology because THEIR study tells conservatives what they want to hear. At least most conservatives. Some of us still actually try to stay objective.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:23 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:17 pm

I just listened to his video and I think he's operating on a false premise. I think the false premise is that we now know lockdowns had little effect on mortality. I suspect he is saying that because of a recent report by three economists at Johns Hopkins that made that case. The report has not yet been peer reviewed. But there is earlier research that concluded that lockdowns saved millions of lives. I think Politifact provides a good summary of the situation at https://www.politifact.com/article/2022 ... -19-death/.

The Politifact article links an assessment in Nature that concludes lockdowns substantially reduced cases and deaths. That article is at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7.pdf. Here is a quote:



You can see what they mean by "interventions" in this quote from the abstract:



The guy seems to be saying, during his statement, that there hasn't been research suggesting lockdowns had a significant effect on mortality. That is pretty self-evidently not true.
Little tip for you. If you have to use PolitiFact to make your case, your case is weak. And don't even think of quoting Wikipedia.

Lastly, the article PolitiFact references, was submitted in March of 2020. Yeah, that was a great time to evaluate the end product of lockdowns.
I know you think that about Politifact, but you are wrong. What Politifact does is provide references for what it says. It is a good source. The reason people like you say what you say about it is that it is a good source of truth and truth is not the friend of your point of view. I could have just clicked on the reference and not said I found it through Politifact but I gave Politifact credit.

I do not cite Wikipedia because you are right about that one. I may start by finding something in a Wikipedia article. But I will find something in another source and cite that. Politifact is not like Wikipedia.

The fact that it was done in March 2020 does not matter. Even then, evidence that lockdowns reduce cases and deaths had been developed. If you want something more recent you can look at the article at https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022020 ... aths-study that I quoted in another post. It's pretty clear that the guy is operating on the basis of a false premise when he says that there haven't been studies showing that lockdowns significantly reduce deaths. There clearly have been studies making that case.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:02 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:23 pm

Little tip for you. If you have to use PolitiFact to make your case, your case is weak. And don't even think of quoting Wikipedia.

Lastly, the article PolitiFact references, was submitted in March of 2020. Yeah, that was a great time to evaluate the end product of lockdowns.
I know you think that about Politifact, but you are wrong. What Politifact does is provide references for what it says. It is a good source. The reason people like you say what you say about it is that it is a good source of truth and truth is not the friend of your point of view. I could have just clicked on the reference and not said I found it through Politifact but I gave Politifact credit.

I do not cite Wikipedia because you are right about that one. I may start by finding something in a Wikipedia article. But I will find something in another source and cite that. Politifact is not like Wikipedia.

The fact that it was done in March 2020 does not matter. Even then, evidence that lockdowns reduce cases and deaths had been developed. If you want something more recent you can look at the article at https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022020 ... aths-study that I quoted in another post. It's pretty clear that the guy is operating on the basis of a false premise when he says that there haven't been studies showing that lockdowns significantly reduce deaths. There clearly have been studies making that case.
PolitiFact is for chumps and those trying to shut down the uninformed. That's not this crowd, especially when a gal with only a journalism degree refers to "experts" without naming them. :ohno:

Also, I didn't hear the gentleman apologizing, mention any economist studies. You are doing the same thing here as you do with Public Health England data. You conclude wrongly that a particular topic is being discussed, then keep defending the incorrect topic. Your defense is correct, unfortunately it's not what is actually being discussed.

The guy was an emergency room doctor that apologized to the creators of the Barrington declaration because he sees, after the fact, their proposal would have been better overall, especially as Public Health simply threw out the years past playbook in favor of indiscriminate lockdowns.

Edit:. Added pretty much everything after first two sentences this morning.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:32 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:02 pm

I know you think that about Politifact, but you are wrong. What Politifact does is provide references for what it says. It is a good source. The reason people like you say what you say about it is that it is a good source of truth and truth is not the friend of your point of view. I could have just clicked on the reference and not said I found it through Politifact but I gave Politifact credit.

I do not cite Wikipedia because you are right about that one. I may start by finding something in a Wikipedia article. But I will find something in another source and cite that. Politifact is not like Wikipedia.

The fact that it was done in March 2020 does not matter. Even then, evidence that lockdowns reduce cases and deaths had been developed. If you want something more recent you can look at the article at https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022020 ... aths-study that I quoted in another post. It's pretty clear that the guy is operating on the basis of a false premise when he says that there haven't been studies showing that lockdowns significantly reduce deaths. There clearly have been studies making that case.
PolitiFact is for chumps and those trying to shut down the uninformed. That's not this crowd, especially when a gal with only a journalism degree refers to "experts" without naming them. :ohno:

Also, I didn't hear the gentleman apologizing, mention any economist studies. You are doing the same thing here as you do with Public Health England data. You conclude wrongly that a particular topic is being discussed, then keep defending the incorrect topic. Your defense is correct, unfortunately it's not what is actually being discussed.

The guy was an emergency room doctor that apologized to the creators of the Barrington declaration because he sees, after the fact, their proposal would have been better overall, especially as Public Health simply threw out the years past playbook in favor of indiscriminate lockdowns.

Edit:. Added pretty much everything after first two sentences this morning.
The guy said he would have a different opinion if there were studies showing lockdowns significantly reduced illnesses and deaths. There are studies at least purporting to show that lockdowns significantly reduced illnesses and deaths. I did speculate as to whether he was saying that because of the recent as yet unpublished paper by some economists purporting to show that lockdowns did NOT have a significant effect in that regard. I did that because i don't know why else he would say that. The conventional wisdom among public health officials, virologists, etc., is that lockdowns significantly reduced illnesses and deaths and we just had that contrarian (as yet unpublished) paper come out.

And Politifact is a reliable, minimally biased source. It is run by a group of professional journalists who follow high standards of conduct. The big problem with Politifact is, as I said, that the truth is not consistent with what people who at least call themselves "conservatives" want to believe nowadays. So the people who at least call themselves "conservatives" have to try to discredit it to the extent that they can.
Last edited by JohnStOnge on Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Here is an example of how bad it can get on the "anti vax" side: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urg ... ce=url&s=r

I came across this because my wife has an anti vax sister and her sister sent it to her. Here is the paper the anti fax author, Alex Berenson, referenced:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

Now, look at the image of the figure Berenson included in his piece and scroll down to the figure itself in the paper. Notice any difference?

Here it is: In the paper, the figure has this footnote:
Negative VE values observed in later time points likely reflect estimator instability and/or residual confounding, as opposed to true relatively increased risk for those vaccinated.
The image Berenson included has that footnote cropped out. Moreover, he wrote this in his article:
The researchers did not mention the negative effectiveness in their discussion of their findings.
I can only assume that what he is talking about is that the "Discussion" section of the paper did not include an explanation of why they don't think the graph shows negative vaccine effectiveness. But the footnote to the graph itself clearly states their outlook in that regard. Berenson had to know that. Does anybody think he didn't notice that footnote and just happened to omit it from his image?

I mean, how intellectually dishonest can you get?

As an aside: The authors of the report concluded that vaccinating children 5 to 11 is important because it significantly reduces the risk of severe disease. Berenson spun one deceptive presentation of a table in the report into an argument against childhood vaccination. This is the kind of thing that is going on a lot on the "COVID-19 sceptic" side. You look at what the authors of the report say and it's "vaccinate your kids." You look at what the anti vax person trying to cherry pick things out of their report says and it's "your kids are more likely to get sick if you vaccinate them."
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Baldy »

JohnStOnge wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:02 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:23 pm

Little tip for you. If you have to use PolitiFact to make your case, your case is weak. And don't even think of quoting Wikipedia.

Lastly, the article PolitiFact references, was submitted in March of 2020. Yeah, that was a great time to evaluate the end product of lockdowns.
I know you think that about Politifact, but you are wrong. What Politifact does is provide references for what it says. It is a good source. The reason people like you say what you say about it is that it is a good source of truth and truth is not the friend of your point of view. I could have just clicked on the reference and not said I found it through Politifact but I gave Politifact credit.

I do not cite Wikipedia because you are right about that one. I may start by finding something in a Wikipedia article. But I will find something in another source and cite that. Politifact is not like Wikipedia.

The fact that it was done in March 2020 does not matter. Even then, evidence that lockdowns reduce cases and deaths had been developed. If you want something more recent you can look at the article at https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2022020 ... aths-study that I quoted in another post. It's pretty clear that the guy is operating on the basis of a false premise when he says that there haven't been studies showing that lockdowns significantly reduce deaths. There clearly have been studies making that case.
You're wrong again.

A study by Johns Hopkins (whom you like to quote when it fits your narrative) from January of this year definitively stated that lockdowns were basically useless on multiple levels.
While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy
instrument.
https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files ... tality.pdf
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Good God, why are we rehashing this again? There is study after study and comparison after comparison that shows neither lockdowns nor masks had any measurable affect on the virus or it's spread/demise.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:40 pm Here is an example of how bad it can get on the "anti vax" side: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urg ... ce=url&s=r

I came across this because my wife has an anti vax sister and her sister sent it to her. Here is the paper the anti fax author, Alex Berenson, referenced:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

Now, look at the image of the figure Berenson included in his piece and scroll down to the figure itself in the paper. Notice any difference?

Here it is: In the paper, the figure has this footnote:
Negative VE values observed in later time points likely reflect estimator instability and/or residual confounding, as opposed to true relatively increased risk for those vaccinated.
The image Berenson included has that footnote cropped out. Moreover, he wrote this in his article:
The researchers did not mention the negative effectiveness in their discussion of their findings.
I can only assume that what he is talking about is that the "Discussion" section of the paper did not include an explanation of why they don't think the graph shows negative vaccine effectiveness. But the footnote to the graph itself clearly states their outlook in that regard. Berenson had to know that. Does anybody think he didn't notice that footnote and just happened to omit it from his image?

I mean, how intellectually dishonest can you get?

As an aside: The authors of the report concluded that vaccinating children 5 to 11 is important because it significantly reduces the risk of severe disease. Berenson spun one deceptive presentation of a table in the report into an argument against childhood vaccination. This is the kind of thing that is going on a lot on the "COVID-19 sceptic" side. You look at what the authors of the report say and it's "vaccinate your kids." You look at what the anti vax person trying to cherry pick things out of their report says and it's "your kids are more likely to get sick if you vaccinate them."
Why would they have problems with" later time points likely reflect estimator instability" at the end, but not the beginning?

That's a great trick you conveniently keep pulling. Data disclaimers to declare anything "out of bounds" as unreliable. Don't believe what your eyes are telling you.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Winterborn »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:40 pm Good God, why are we rehashing this again? There is study after study and comparison after comparison that shows neither lockdowns nor masks had any measurable affect on the virus or it's spread/demise.
For some people it is their line in the sand that they need to toe.
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