The Ukraine Crisis

[SeattleGriz]

I'm not trolling at all. I've simply realized the US has said they abide by a rules based order, but yet, refuse to follow the rules when put in the same situation.

Am I happy about that? Fuck no. I have two American flags tattooed on my ankle and hip for winning the US Military National Cycling Championships twice and being invited to the Olympic Training Center for those victories. I fucking bleed red, white and blue and am pissed we have asshats fucking things up for everyone.

If you can't get out of your tiny bias confirming box, that is not my issue. You need to expand your horizons and see what the rest of the World is saying in regards to this conflict. America has been a huge problem for years. I just bought the bullshit because I loved my country. No more.

And your deal about trying to shame me is horseshit.

Did I attack your service? No.

But if you are not trolling, then truly you need to find better sources. (Btw, noticing you didn’t produce what the former diplomats are saying). Now it’s the rest of world? Good god man.

Questioning US hypocrisy I’m fine with. I did it going back to Gulf War 1. I’m glad you are becoming aware of that now. It’s shitty.

But that is NOT the case here.

I know you weren't questioning my service. My point was that you couldn't find a more "Murica" type guy than me, but after all the lies, I've just had enough. Call it marketing if you want, I'm simply weary of hearing one thing and seeing another.

In regards to diplomats, I didn't want to pull a Baldy and show how easy it was to find diplomats who proclaimed "not one inch" and then progressed. I'll give you two, how about that?

Gotta go risk my life as my son drives for practice first. Murica!

[SeattleGriz]

I'm not trolling at all. I've simply realized the US has said they abide by a rules based order, but yet, refuse to follow the rules when put in the same situation.

Am I happy about that? Fuck no. I have two American flags tattooed on my ankle and hip for winning the US Military National Cycling Championships twice and being invited to the Olympic Training Center for those victories. I fucking bleed red, white and blue and am pissed we have asshats fucking things up for everyone.

If you can't get out of your tiny bias confirming box, that is not my issue. You need to expand your horizons and see what the rest of the World is saying in regards to this conflict. America has been a huge problem for years. I just bought the bullshit because I loved my country. No more.

And your deal about trying to shame me is horseshit.

Did I attack your service? No. Also not sure of the shaming you remark.

But if you are not trolling, then truly you need to find better sources. (Btw, noticing you didn’t produce what the former diplomats are saying). Now it’s the rest of world? Good god man.

Questioning US hypocrisy I’m fine with. I did it going back to Gulf War 1. I’m glad you are becoming aware of that now. It’s shitty.

But that is NOT the case here.

(I knew you were a cyclists but damn, that’s impressive)

What is the case outside of the US stomping on its own dick in this self own?

By the way, NPR admitting conflict years ago. US knew Putin had a conflict with claimed promises, but still operated under unclear rules? WTF!?

Russian officials say that the U.S. government made a pledge to Soviet leaders not to expand the alliance's eastern borders, a commitment they say came during the flurry of diplomacy following the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and surrounding the reunification of Germany in 1990. Proponents of this narrative often cite the words that U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker said to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in February 1990, that "there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east." They say the United States and NATO have repeatedly betrayed this verbal commitment in the decades since, taking advantage of Russia's tumultuous post-Soviet period and expanding the Western alliance several times, all the way to Russia's doorstep in the case of the Baltic states.

[houndawg]

Your assumption makes it clear that this happened before your time. We were 45 minutes from a mushroom cloud

(We didn't encroach on Russia, Russia invaded their neighbor )

45 minutes from a mushroom cloud. Nice hyperbole.

And to your second point. We didn't give Russia our word after the fall of the USSR that we wouldn't expand NATO to their border and also place nuke launchers there as well?

Gawd. You're an awful hippie. And you're on formula!!

From the lips of Dick Cheney - you may not have yet been on solid food at the time, or even finished running down dad's leg for that matter.

We didn't expand NATO, NATO expanded itself, like cosmic inflation

Obviously the Mad Dwarf Vladimir can't expect to invade his neighbors and not be held accountable, he brought this upon himself.

I may be an awful hippie but at least I ain't no Neville Chamberlain peace-in-our-time-commie-appeaser.

On formula?

.... thats what we called electric wine back in the day You should try some, help you loosen up a bit.

[kalm]

Did I attack your service? No. Also not sure of the shaming you remark.

But if you are not trolling, then truly you need to find better sources. (Btw, noticing you didn’t produce what the former diplomats are saying). Now it’s the rest of world? Good god man.

Questioning US hypocrisy I’m fine with. I did it going back to Gulf War 1. I’m glad you are becoming aware of that now. It’s shitty.

But that is NOT the case here.

(I knew you were a cyclists but damn, that’s impressive)

What is the case outside of the US stomping on its own dick in this self own?

By the way, NPR admitting conflict years ago. US knew Putin had a conflict with claimed promises, but still operated under unclear rules? WTF!?

Russian officials say that the U.S. government made a pledge to Soviet leaders not to expand the alliance's eastern borders, a commitment they say came during the flurry of diplomacy following the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and surrounding the reunification of Germany in 1990. Proponents of this narrative often cite the words that U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker said to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in February 1990, that "there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east." They say the United States and NATO have repeatedly betrayed this verbal commitment in the decades since, taking advantage of Russia's tumultuous post-Soviet period and expanding the Western alliance several times, all the way to Russia's doorstep in the case of the Baltic states.

[GannonFan]

What is the case outside of the US stomping on its own dick in this self own?

By the way, NPR admitting conflict years ago. US knew Putin had a conflict with claimed promises, but still operated under unclear rules? WTF!?

When it comes down to it, though, I don't give a crap what we may have told or not told Russia in the very early '90's when Putin was just a middling officer in the KGB overhearing these conversations. The world has changed significantly in the past 30 years, and Russia's changing behavior is a big part of that. NATO has always been a defensive alliance and hasn't projected offensive traits ever - it's not attacking other nations. Russia, on the other hand, has shown and continues to show, and now even just says it out loud, that they want control over any territory or country they want just so they can feel "secure". But with many countries, they don't want to be subjugated by the Russian state. And Russia has shown time and time again that where they can dominate a neighbor they will do so. There's a reason why so many countries in Eastern Europe have opted to be under the safety umbrella of NATO - clearly once you are, you don't really have to worry about when Russia will interfere internally or when they will send in armed forces to do the same. Russia would never roll the tanks in if it was a NATO country, so unfortunately Ukraine never got to that point and thus they are vulnerable to Russia's whims. On the bright side, outside of Moldova, there aren't any European countries left outside of NATO for Russia to bully. Ukraine needs to weather this invasion, and like I said, with whatever land they are left with after this war get into NATO so that Russia can't take the rest 10 years from now after they restock everything militarily they've spent in this invasion.

[kalm]

When it comes down to it, though, I don't give a crap what we may have told or not told Russia in the very early '90's when Putin was just a middling officer in the KGB overhearing these conversations. The world has changed significantly in the past 30 years, and Russia's changing behavior is a big part of that. NATO has always been a defensive alliance and hasn't projected offensive traits ever - it's not attacking other nations. Russia, on the other hand, has shown and continues to show, and now even just says it out loud, that they want control over any territory or country they want just so they can feel "secure". But with many countries, they don't want to be subjugated by the Russian state. And Russia has shown time and time again that where they can dominate a neighbor they will do so. There's a reason why so many countries in Eastern Europe have opted to be under the safety umbrella of NATO - clearly once you are, you don't really have to worry about when Russia will interfere internally or when they will send in armed forces to do the same. Russia would never roll the tanks in if it was a NATO country, so unfortunately Ukraine never got to that point and thus they are vulnerable to Russia's whims. On the bright side, outside of Moldova, there aren't any European countries left outside of NATO for Russia to bully. Ukraine needs to weather this invasion, and like I said, with whatever land they are left with after this war get into NATO so that Russia can't take the rest 10 years from now after they restock everything militarily they've spent in this invasion.

(Although I’m not sure giving up any more territory is acceptable to UKR and most of Europe)

[GannonFan]

When it comes down to it, though, I don't give a crap what we may have told or not told Russia in the very early '90's when Putin was just a middling officer in the KGB overhearing these conversations. The world has changed significantly in the past 30 years, and Russia's changing behavior is a big part of that. NATO has always been a defensive alliance and hasn't projected offensive traits ever - it's not attacking other nations. Russia, on the other hand, has shown and continues to show, and now even just says it out loud, that they want control over any territory or country they want just so they can feel "secure". But with many countries, they don't want to be subjugated by the Russian state. And Russia has shown time and time again that where they can dominate a neighbor they will do so. There's a reason why so many countries in Eastern Europe have opted to be under the safety umbrella of NATO - clearly once you are, you don't really have to worry about when Russia will interfere internally or when they will send in armed forces to do the same. Russia would never roll the tanks in if it was a NATO country, so unfortunately Ukraine never got to that point and thus they are vulnerable to Russia's whims. On the bright side, outside of Moldova, there aren't any European countries left outside of NATO for Russia to bully. Ukraine needs to weather this invasion, and like I said, with whatever land they are left with after this war get into NATO so that Russia can't take the rest 10 years from now after they restock everything militarily they've spent in this invasion.

(Although I’m not sure giving up any more territory is acceptable to UKR and most of Europe)

Well, Russia isn't going to just give it back. If Ukraine wants that territory back, they'll have to take it. Problem is, the longer it's in Russian hands, the more time they have to cleanse the population - get rid of the Ukrainians and populate it with Russians. And considering that we aren't going to put boots on the ground to help take it back (and really, there's zero chance that anyone in Europe will either) I think the most practical way forward is to call those areas occupied (like Crimea), make sure international bodies like the UN never officially recognize them as Russian, and cut your losses while securing NATO membership. Russia, especially after displaying their current military readiness, will never invade a NATO country. Just have to finish the NATO umbrella through Europe so that Russia has to look elsewhere to bully.

[kalm]

(Although I’m not sure giving up any more territory is acceptable to UKR and most of Europe)

Well, Russia isn't going to just give it back. If Ukraine wants that territory back, they'll have to take it. Problem is, the longer it's in Russian hands, the more time they have to cleanse the population - get rid of the Ukrainians and populate it with Russians. And considering that we aren't going to put boots on the ground to help take it back (and really, there's zero chance that anyone in Europe will either) I think the most practical way forward is to call those areas occupied (like Crimea), make sure international bodies like the UN never officially recognize them as Russian, and cut your losses while securing NATO membership. Russia, especially after displaying their current military readiness, will never invade a NATO country. Just have to finish the NATO umbrella through Europe so that Russia has to look elsewhere to bully.

Solid points, Ganny.

[AZGrizFan]

Don't worry. China is preparing for war as we speak.

[houndawg]

Did I attack your service? No.

But if you are not trolling, then truly you need to find better sources. (Btw, noticing you didn’t produce what the former diplomats are saying). Now it’s the rest of world? Good god man.

Questioning US hypocrisy I’m fine with. I did it going back to Gulf War 1. I’m glad you are becoming aware of that now. It’s shitty.

But that is NOT the case here.

I know you weren't questioning my service. My point was that you couldn't find a more "Murica" type guy than me, but after all the lies, I've just had enough Call it marketing if you want, I'm simply weary of hearing one thing and seeing another.

In regards to diplomats, I didn't want to pull a Baldy and show how easy it was to find diplomats who proclaimed "not one inch" and then progressed. I'll give you two, how about that?

Gotta go risk my life as my son drives for practice first. Murica!

more like "after my side started losing..."

[houndawg]

Yes…blame everyone except the master strategist who insured NATO will now advance after years of not expanding.

Nice look.

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to all our former diplomats saying the same thing. We promised Russia NOT to expand NATO, but we did it anyway. Put missle launchers capable of nukes on his border, but yeah, it's all his fault.

Fuck the EU says Victoria Klam Nuland. Give CID a hug for me when you guys commiserate how the US had no hand in this issue.

Oh please.

He can make it stop any time he wants to. Russia reneged on leaving Ukraine be in exchange for their nukes after the collapse ofthe Soviet Union - he reneged again on Crimea and east Ukraine but you Blame America Firsters want to act like Russia is the aggrieved party.

Why do you hate America?

[GannonFan]

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to all our former diplomats saying the same thing. We promised Russia NOT to expand NATO, but we did it anyway. Put missle launchers capable of nukes on his border, but yeah, it's all his fault.

Fuck the EU says Victoria Klam Nuland. Give CID a hug for me when you guys commiserate how the US had no hand in this issue.

Oh please.

He can make it stop any time he wants to. He's wanted to reinstall the Iron Curtain from the day he came to power and he should of stayed out of Crimea and eastern Ukraine if he wanted to blame NATO, but he had to fuck around, and now he is finding out. He needs to be made an example of and the Chinese need to be watching when it happens

Unfortunately the Chinese could be learning a whole different lesson. Basically, if you're going to take over a territory that isn't yours and doesn't want to be joined with you, then plan better and make sure you can swiftly take it before any countries can get together to take any action. Heck, despite all the sanctions Russia is facing, they don't appear to be economically destroyed by this. Sure, the poor state of their military is on full display, but they're doing their Russian thing and just plodding forward in spite of their losses. I thought a little differently at the start of the war that this could give China pause, but the longer this thing goes on I think it is less of a deterrent for China and their plans for Taiwan. Heck, considering our own economic misery right now, China could see that as good time to do it - how much more pain to our economy would we be willing to take to stand up for Taiwan, especially if they don't stand up for themselves? I don't see a lot of rosy skies in the future right now.

[BDKJMU]

(Although I’m not sure giving up any more territory is acceptable to UKR and most of Europe)

Well, Russia isn't going to just give it back. If Ukraine wants that territory back, they'll have to take it. Problem is, the longer it's in Russian hands, the more time they have to cleanse the population - get rid of the Ukrainians and populate it with Russians. And considering that we aren't going to put boots on the ground to help take it back (and really, there's zero chance that anyone in Europe will either) I think the most practical way forward is to call those areas occupied (like Crimea), make sure international bodies like the UN never officially recognize them as Russian, and cut your losses while securing NATO membership. Russia, especially after displaying their current military readiness, will never invade a NATO country. Just have to finish the NATO umbrella through Europe so that Russia has to look elsewhere to bully.

You mean more countries that the US can provide defense for, thereby subsidizing their socialized healthcare and welfare state..

[kalm]

Well, Russia isn't going to just give it back. If Ukraine wants that territory back, they'll have to take it. Problem is, the longer it's in Russian hands, the more time they have to cleanse the population - get rid of the Ukrainians and populate it with Russians. And considering that we aren't going to put boots on the ground to help take it back (and really, there's zero chance that anyone in Europe will either) I think the most practical way forward is to call those areas occupied (like Crimea), make sure international bodies like the UN never officially recognize them as Russian, and cut your losses while securing NATO membership. Russia, especially after displaying their current military readiness, will never invade a NATO country. Just have to finish the NATO umbrella through Europe so that Russia has to look elsewhere to bully.

You mean more countries that the US can provide defense for, thereby subsidizing their socialized healthcare and welfare state..

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

[BDKJMU]

You mean more countries that the US can provide defense for, thereby subsidizing their socialized healthcare and welfare state..

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

75 years late.

And who was it that was critized by the left for railing about that 4-5 years ago?

[Winterborn]

You mean more countries that the US can provide defense for, thereby subsidizing their socialized healthcare and welfare state..

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

Who would have guessed that a foreign army knocking on a nearby country is all it took for countries to figure out they are responsible for their own security.

Maybe if they had done this earlier Putin would not have been emboldened to attack Ukraine.

[Winterborn]

More chickens coming home to roost.

Hopefully Germans still have wood stoves for the winter they can use.

It’s pretty clear what is happening here. Just as German Chancellor is in Kyiv this weeks for talks with Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky, Russia is sending a message about the bad things that could happen this winter if Germany isn’t careful. Indeed, there was a warning today that the situation could get worse.

Russia’s envoy to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, warned on Thursday that further problems with the repairs could lead to a complete shutdown of the pipeline, with devastating consequences for Germany.

“One should be asking Siemens why they had to send turbines to Canada for repairs,” Chizhov told Ria Novosti news agency. “When all those turbines go to Canada for maintenance, it could stop. I think it will be a catastrophe for Germany.”

Gazprom’s chair Alexei Miller said on Thursday there was “no solution” to the problem with Nord Stream’s turbines as the Canadian plant is the only one that can repair the Siemens Energy turbines…

Miller said rising gas prices had offset the blow of a double-digit decrease in Gazprom’s exports to Europe and Turkey. “Prices have grown . . . several times. So excuse me but if I said we are not mad at anyone, I wouldn’t be lying.”

Russia is always lying. In this case, there’s no reason to take those turbines, which have been running for 10 years, offline now except to rattle Germany. And given Chancellor Olaf Scholz’ history of tenuous action regarding Russia, it just might work.

Last month Vox published this video explaining how Germany became so dependent on Russian gas. It’s a pretty good primer of how we got here. Of course this doesn’t mention another factor which is that while Germany was becoming more depending on Russian gas it was also eliminating nuclear power. The three nuclear plants that were shut down last December could have been used to generate a lot of electricity which could in turn be used to heat a lot of homes this winter. Keeping those power plants wouldn’t solve the problem of a sudden reduction in gas supplies but it would have made the potential crisis less acute.

https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2022/06/15/ ... ns-n476502

[kalm]

More chickens coming home to roost.

Hopefully Germans still have wood stoves for the winter they can use.

It’s pretty clear what is happening here. Just as German Chancellor is in Kyiv this weeks for talks with Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky, Russia is sending a message about the bad things that could happen this winter if Germany isn’t careful. Indeed, there was a warning today that the situation could get worse.

Russia’s envoy to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, warned on Thursday that further problems with the repairs could lead to a complete shutdown of the pipeline, with devastating consequences for Germany.

“One should be asking Siemens why they had to send turbines to Canada for repairs,” Chizhov told Ria Novosti news agency. “When all those turbines go to Canada for maintenance, it could stop. I think it will be a catastrophe for Germany.”

Gazprom’s chair Alexei Miller said on Thursday there was “no solution” to the problem with Nord Stream’s turbines as the Canadian plant is the only one that can repair the Siemens Energy turbines…

Miller said rising gas prices had offset the blow of a double-digit decrease in Gazprom’s exports to Europe and Turkey. “Prices have grown . . . several times. So excuse me but if I said we are not mad at anyone, I wouldn’t be lying.”

Russia is always lying. In this case, there’s no reason to take those turbines, which have been running for 10 years, offline now except to rattle Germany. And given Chancellor Olaf Scholz’ history of tenuous action regarding Russia, it just might work.

Last month Vox published this video explaining how Germany became so dependent on Russian gas. It’s a pretty good primer of how we got here. Of course this doesn’t mention another factor which is that while Germany was becoming more depending on Russian gas it was also eliminating nuclear power. The three nuclear plants that were shut down last December could have been used to generate a lot of electricity which could in turn be used to heat a lot of homes this winter. Keeping those power plants wouldn’t solve the problem of a sudden reduction in gas supplies but it would have made the potential crisis less acute.

https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2022/06/15/ ... ns-n476502

[Winterborn]

More chickens coming home to roost.

Hopefully Germans still have wood stoves for the winter they can use.



https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2022/06/15/ ... ns-n476502

Well he is not really wrong as the EU cannot cut themselves off completely from Russian gas and oil. So they in a round about way are still funding the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

[HI54UNI]

You mean more countries that the US can provide defense for, thereby subsidizing their socialized healthcare and welfare state..

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

The increase is still too small. Their spending is still miniscule in the big picture and means nothing without the U.S.

[kalm]

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

The increase is still too small. Their spending is still miniscule in the big picture and means nothing without the U.S.

Which for the last 70 years has benefitted the US.

[Winterborn]

Those countries are increasing their spending as we speak, as they should.

The increase is still too small. Their spending is still miniscule in the big picture and means nothing without the U.S.

Russian shells need to land on their soil before they do any more.

[BDKJMU]

The increase is still too small. Their spending is still miniscule in the big picture and means nothing without the U.S.

Which for the last 70 years has benefitted the US.

All those countries sucking on the US security tit, saving 10s of trillions over 3/4 of a century, amd the US spending 10s of trillions more than it should have, didn’t benefit enough to get the bang for the buck.

[kalm]

Which for the last 70 years has benefitted the US.

All those countries sucking on the US security tit, saving 10s of trillions over 3/4 of a century, amd the US spending 10s of trillions more than it should have, didn’t benefit enough to get the bang for the buck.

Calm down ya lib.

It depends on your priorities. A freely educated public with low cost - positive outcome healthcare or a kickass military and more billionaires.

Everything is a choice.

[Winterborn]

All those countries sucking on the US security tit, saving 10s of trillions over 3/4 of a century, amd the US spending 10s of trillions more than it should have, didn’t benefit enough to get the bang for the buck.

Calm down ya lib.

It depends on your priorities. A freely educated public with low cost - positive outcome healthcare or a kickass military and more billionaires.

Everything is a choice.

With that type of deductive reasoning and insight you should start up your own podcast.

Call it "Front Porch Musings from an Old Hippy".