The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

What are the rates they’re using and producing?

No clue, but whatever they are doing, it has long outheld the dire media predictions they were almost out of ammo and missiles.

If you shot 5,000 artillery in one day, a 24 hour munitions factory would need to produce roughly 208 per hour to replace. I have no idea if that's a reasonable number, but I also bet they have more than one factory. I would also believe the early explosions in the Russian factories weren't sabotage, but the pains of increasing rates.

If the west was able to match production, we wouldn't be hearing about Ukraine being outgunned in artillery fire by a factor of eight.

Ok

[SDHornet]

I've read that a few days of shelling by Ukraine eats up a months worth of production. I didn't get a source so take it with a grain of salt.

Also saw the Russians had another massive air strike. Didn't they run out of missiles back in March?

I recall posting that time is on Russia's side and got mocked for it, anyone with a brain new that Russia would win a war of attrition. Now event NYT is running articles about NATO countries burning through their munitions stockpiles on their proxy war.

[SDHornet]

Interesting.

WASHINGTON—The U.S. secretly modified the advanced Himars rocket launchers it gave Ukraine so they can’t be used to fire long-range missiles into Russia, U.S. officials said, a precaution the Biden administration says is necessary to reduce the risk of a wider war with Moscow.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-altere ... 1670214338

[houndawg]

...

.....but think of the bank we'll make, nobody wants to go to war with cheap Russian shit any more..

I have no clue what people want to go to war with, but Russia has shown they have the industrial capacity to support their troops with weaponry that while not as advanced, works. And the West, not so much.

This is a huge wake up call for the US.

"works". They have to buy back the dud-laden ammo they sold NK at a steep mark up.

What they've shown is that they can't supply shit and their troops are going to freeze in the dark all winter without adequate food.

Desertion and fragging is what the Russian so-called command has to look forward to this winter.

[∞∞∞]

Still don't understand the fetish for Russia by some Americans.

I've mentioned it before but I recommend SG read "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck; it's about an unnamed nation (heavy implication of Nazi Germany) which takes over an unnamed town.

"Free men cannot start a war, but once it is started, they can fight on in defeat. Herd men, followers of a leader, cannot do that, and so it is always the herd men who win battles and the free men who win wars."

It really doesn't matter what Russia does; they can't win. They can takeover the entire country and in the end, they'll always live in fear of people killing them. As the book later says, "The flies have conquered the flypaper.”

[kalm]

Still don't understand the fetish for Russia by some Americans.

I've mentioned it before but I recommend SG read "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck; it's about an unnamed nation (heavy implication it's Nazi Germany) which takes over unnamed free people.

"Free men cannot start a war, but once it is started, they can fight on in defeat. Herd men, followers of a leader, cannot do that, and so it is always the herd men who win battles and the free men who win wars."

It really doesn't matter what Russia does; they can takeover the entire country and in the end, they'll live in fear because the people believe in the concept of a free Ukraine. As the book later says, "The flies have conquered the flypaper.”

I remember hating the Grapes of Wrath as a kid. May have to give this one a try.

And spot on regarding an entrenched population fighting for their autonomy.

[SeattleGriz]

I have no clue what people want to go to war with, but Russia has shown they have the industrial capacity to support their troops with weaponry that while not as advanced, works. And the West, not so much.

This is a huge wake up call for the US.

"works". They have to buy back the dud-laden ammo they sold NK at a steep mark up.

What they've shown is that they can't supply shit and their troops are going to freeze in the dark all winter without adequate food.

Desertion and fragging is what the Russian so-called command has to look forward to this winter.

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ns-stocks/

We want to be able to build our stocks not just where we started the war, but higher. We’re posturing for a pretty ― over a period of three years ― a dramatic increase in conventional artillery ammunition production.”

Army Secretary Christine Wormuth separately told reporters that the U.S. will go from making 14,000 155mm shells each month to 20,000 by the spring and 40,000 by 2025.

US hasn't even gotten ramped up yet. This was my point. I just read Russia is sending upwards of 60k rounds artillery on heavy days. US is hoping to get to 40k / MONTH, by 2025.

[SeattleGriz]

Still don't understand the fetish for Russia by some Americans.

I've mentioned it before but I recommend SG read "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck; it's about an unnamed nation (heavy implication of Nazi Germany) which takes over an unnamed town.

"Free men cannot start a war, but once it is started, they can fight on in defeat. Herd men, followers of a leader, cannot do that, and so it is always the herd men who win battles and the free men who win wars."

It really doesn't matter what Russia does; they can't win. They can takeover the entire country and in the end, they'll always live in fear of people killing them. As the book later says, "The flies have conquered the flypaper.”

And I can't believe I still have to explain my stance of Russia having superior capabilities and thus Ukraine is being ground up. It has nothing to do with heart.

Fighting for your homeland is one thing, it's another to fight it as another country's proxy and with less than effective weaponry.

[kalm]

Still don't understand the fetish for Russia by some Americans.

I've mentioned it before but I recommend SG read "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck; it's about an unnamed nation (heavy implication of Nazi Germany) which takes over an unnamed town.

"Free men cannot start a war, but once it is started, they can fight on in defeat. Herd men, followers of a leader, cannot do that, and so it is always the herd men who win battles and the free men who win wars."

It really doesn't matter what Russia does; they can't win. They can takeover the entire country and in the end, they'll always live in fear of people killing them. As the book later says, "The flies have conquered the flypaper.”

And I can't believe I still have to explain my stance of Russia having superior capabilities and thus Ukraine is being ground up. It has nothing to do with heart.

Fighting for your homeland is one thing, it's another to fight it as another country's proxy and with less than effective weaponry.

So Russian weaponry is superior to US? Ukraine isn’t a sovereign nation?

Ok.

[∞∞∞]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

[SeattleGriz]

And I can't believe I still have to explain my stance of Russia having superior capabilities and thus Ukraine is being ground up. It has nothing to do with heart.

Fighting for your homeland is one thing, it's another to fight it as another country's proxy and with less than effective weaponry.

So Russian weaponry is superior to US? Ukraine isn’t a sovereign nation?

Ok.

Are we giving Ukraine the "good" stuff? No. Russia lives right there. They don't have Ukraine destroying their shipments as well.

[SeattleGriz]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

Then why did they shut down the peace talks?

[UNI88]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

Then why did they shut down the peace talks?

Why would Ukraine negotiate with Russia at this point? A truce of any kind will just give Russia time to recover and restock for a future invasion. It's all or nothing for Ukraine and if they want to exist as a nation.

[∞∞∞]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

Then why did they shut down the peace talks?

That proves Ukraine is not America's proxy. America asked for peace talks and Ukraine said no; proxies don't make final shots.

As personal opinion, I agree with Ukraine. Russia shouldn't be allowed to take free nations and get what they want through talks. If Ukraine has the fight in them and/or the continued support of the international community, they should take back all their land.

[UNI88]

Still don't understand the fetish for Russia by some Americans.

I've mentioned it before but I recommend SG read "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck; it's about an unnamed nation (heavy implication it's Nazi Germany) which takes over unnamed free people.

"Free men cannot start a war, but once it is started, they can fight on in defeat. Herd men, followers of a leader, cannot do that, and so it is always the herd men who win battles and the free men who win wars."

It really doesn't matter what Russia does; they can takeover the entire country and in the end, they'll live in fear because the people believe in the concept of a free Ukraine. As the book later says, "The flies have conquered the flypaper.”

I remember hating the Grapes of Wrath as a kid. May have to give this one a try.

And spot on regarding an entrenched population fighting for their autonomy.

It's a good book and a whole lot shorter than Grapes.

[GannonFan]

Ukraine isn't America's proxy; the West did not start this war.

We are assisting Ukraine because it asked for help and it's the right thing to do. Russia had every chance not to invade. Sure we had normal geopolitical tussles with Russia before they invaded Ukraine, but even today, Russia isn't considered an "enemy".

Then why did they shut down the peace talks?

Russia wants to swallow up Ukraine. For no reason at all. Been that way since at least the stealing of Crimea. But truth be told Russian desire to dominate and eliminate Ukraine is a generational thing - it's just what Russia does to its neighbors. There's no peace talks for that, Russia just wants to make official what it's been trying to do since it launched this unprovoked war on its neighbor.

[UNI88]

Then why did they shut down the peace talks?

Russia wants to swallow up Ukraine. For no reason at all. Been that way since at least the stealing of Crimea. But truth be told Russian desire to dominate and eliminate Ukraine is a generational thing - it's just what Russia does to its neighbors. There's no peace talks for that, Russia just wants to make official what it's been trying to do since it launched this unprovoked war on its neighbor.

Another interesting aspect is that the Putin/Russia sycophants like to argue that there is no Ukrainian people/nation and that they are historically a part of Russia. I would argue that historically speaking Kiev has a stronger claim to Russia (Rus) than Moscow/Russia has to Ukraine.

Maybe Putin should surrender Russia to Zelenskyy.

[houndawg]

"works". They have to buy back the dud-laden ammo they sold NK at a steep mark up.

What they've shown is that they can't supply shit and their troops are going to freeze in the dark all winter without adequate food.

Desertion and fragging is what the Russian so-called command has to look forward to this winter.

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ns-stocks/

We want to be able to build our stocks not just where we started the war, but higher. We’re posturing for a pretty ― over a period of three years ― a dramatic increase in conventional artillery ammunition production.”

Army Secretary Christine Wormuth separately told reporters that the U.S. will go from making 14,000 155mm shells each month to 20,000 by the spring and 40,000 by 2025.

US hasn't even gotten ramped up yet. This was my point. I just read Russia is sending upwards of 60k rounds artillery on heavy days. US is hoping to get to 40k / MONTH, by 2025.

You'd think they would be making some sort of progress if that were true.

[SeattleGriz]

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ns-stocks/



US hasn't even gotten ramped up yet. This was my point. I just read Russia is sending upwards of 60k rounds artillery on heavy days. US is hoping to get to 40k / MONTH, by 2025.

You'd think they would be making some sort of progress if that were true.

What sort of progress are you talking about? How about grinding down troops and equipment with artillery?

Otherwise known as denazify and demilitarize.

[houndawg]

You'd think they would be making some sort of progress if that were true.

What sort of progress are you talking about? How about grinding down troops and equipment with artillery?

Otherwise known as denazify and demilitarize.

They're grinding down civilians and infrastructure, Tattoo, not troops and equipment that shoot back.



Makes you wonder why they bothered to invade in the first place, ten months ago, if all they were going to do was kill civilians and fuck up the electrical grid. I guess The Mad Dwarf Vladimir got tired of Russians wondering why they can't have a standard of living like the Ukrainians.

[houndawg]

I've read that a few days of shelling by Ukraine eats up a months worth of production. I didn't get a source so take it with a grain of salt.

Also saw the Russians had another massive air strike. Didn't they run out of missiles back in March?

I recall posting that time is on Russia's side and got mocked for it, anyone with a brain new that Russia would win a war of attrition. Now event NYT is running articles about NATO countries burning through their munitions stockpiles on their proxy war.

A very large grain of salt according to my experience in the local munitions factory, but do go on about the war of attrition as if that were the plan the whole time.

[SeattleGriz]

What sort of progress are you talking about? How about grinding down troops and equipment with artillery?

Otherwise known as denazify and demilitarize.

They're grinding down civilians and infrastructure, Tattoo, not troops and equipment that shoot back.



Makes you wonder why they bothered to invade in the first place, ten months ago, if all they were going to do was kill civilians and fuck up the electrical grid. I guess The Mad Dwarf Vladimir got tired of Russians wondering why they can't have a standard of living like the Ukrainians.

That's MISTER Tattoo to you pal.

[SeattleGriz]

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ns-stocks/



US hasn't even gotten ramped up yet. This was my point. I just read Russia is sending upwards of 60k rounds artillery on heavy days. US is hoping to get to 40k / MONTH, by 2025.

You'd think they would be making some sort of progress if that were true.

They are. It's called demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, and while at it, NATO as well.

Sure are lots of poor EU nations that are out of supplies.

[SeattleGriz]

I've read that a few days of shelling by Ukraine eats up a months worth of production. I didn't get a source so take it with a grain of salt.

Also saw the Russians had another massive air strike. Didn't they run out of missiles back in March?

I recall posting that time is on Russia's side and got mocked for it, anyone with a brain new that Russia would win a war of attrition. Now event NYT is running articles about NATO countries burning through their munitions stockpiles on their proxy war.

A very large grain of salt according to my experience in the local munitions factory, but do go on about the war of attrition as if that were the plan the whole time.

You were a janitor at a munitions factory as well?!!

[GannonFan]

You'd think they would be making some sort of progress if that were true.

They are. It's called demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, and while at it, NATO as well.

Sure are lots of poor EU nations that are out of supplies.

Sure, whatever you say Russia-bot. And yet, Russia seems unable to even take all the ground that they've arbitrarily declared Russian soil, appear to be making no real progress in the war, and at the end of this, with whatever Ukraine still is after this invasion, Russia will now have NATO allies completely up and down their western border. Russia can play with the Ukrainian electrical grid and bombard civilian locations far from the front lines, but it's clear as day that things haven't gone as Russia would've liked in the Ukraine and Russia is still struggling to adapt to that.