Sources: CIA Used Drill To Coerce Prisoner

[houndawg]

And what do you call 183 waterboardings? Either we're like them or we're not. If we are like them then it doesn't really matter who wins the so-called "War on Terror".

I don't see that as any kind of "flip side". Either we're like them or we're not

Wow....you really believe its that black or white....

No, I don't believe it's that black or white, I want it to be that black or white, unlike many here who are satisfied with the difference between us and them being only a matter of degree.

[houndawg]

And what do you call 183 waterboardings? Either we're like them or we're not. If we are like them then it doesn't really matter who wins the so-called "War on Terror".

I don't see that as any kind of "flip side". Either we're like them or we're not

I agree with your premise and have said so in previous posts, but you are talking about the most vile man alive. All 183 waterboardings were against one man. The SELF described mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Nothing is too foul for him, IMO. If a bullet found it's way into the base of his skull I think I would sleep jus as well tonight as I did last night.

However, I do not advocate torture, for the most part.

I don't care what happens to that particular POS either, Bobby. But what about all the detainees that were guilty of nothing and held incommunicado in gitmo and abu Ghraib, many for years? Pretty ugly stuff, looking at pictures of our people using a place built by Saddam for its intended purpose.

[JoltinJoe]

Khalid Sheik Mohammad was not waterboarded 183 times. He was waterboarded five times -- and water was applied 183 times during five sessions. He cracked after five waterboardings. The myth to the contrary was started by the New York Times, which counted each application of water as a separate "waterboarding," and it is has been frequently repeated, even though the statement is false.

It is appalling that this lie that he was "waterboarded" 183 times is repeated.

Source: 2007 Red Cross Report, p. 10.
Witness: Khalid Sheik Mohammad (i.e., his own account is that he was waterboarded five times).

2007 Red Cross Report

[houndawg]

And what do you call 183 waterboardings? Either we're like them or we're not. If we are like them then it doesn't really matter who wins the so-called "War on Terror".

I don't see that as any kind of "flip side". Either we're like them or we're not

If you don't see the difference between attempting to extract information and torturing for sport, then no amount of explaining is going to help. I'm not arguing that torture is EFFECTIVE....but to assume that it doesn't happen for different reasons is naive.

I think you you answered yourself there, amigo; everybody already knows that torture does not provide useful information, so what are these "different reasons" you speak of?

[houndawg]

If it works, and they save American lives, Who cares? Its amazing how some people have more sympathy for the terrorists, than the people the terrorists killed.

Good grief, where do you come up with this nonsense? This has nothing to do with sympathy for terrorists and everything to do with what the United States are supposed to stand for. Big picture, dude.

[houndawg]

And what do you call 183 waterboardings? Either we're like them or we're not. If we are like them then it doesn't really matter who wins the so-called "War on Terror".

I don't see that as any kind of "flip side". Either we're like them or we're not

We are not like them, Dawg. We do not execute prisoners, we do not mutilate prisoners, we do not throw acid on schoolgirls' faces, we do not destroy priceless religious relics because they are different from our own religion, we do not behead innocent civilians, we do no desecrate the bodies of prisoners (that we do not execute in the first place), etc...

I call 183 waterboardings, such as we use routinely in our own military training, a non-torture interrogation technique that causes no permanent physical damage.

Any interrogation technique that does not cause permanent physical disability and any interrogation technique that we use in our own military training should be allowable - and provides infinite distinction between us (the GOOD GUYS) and them (the BAD GUYS).

If YOU cannot tell the difference and think it makes us all the same you need to lay off the drugs. Get over your own demons and stop blaming America. With ALL our flaws we are still as pure as the driven snow in comparison to our enemies and still the last best hope for humanity.

You do have a good point stashed in there among your usual smug and patronizing BS, and that is that with all our flaws we are still a better alternative than our enemies. For you, that is enough to excuse our involvement with gitmo, abu Ghraib, and places like the School of the Americas, (where ambitious Latin American dictators send their Secret Police for training); for me, not so much.

[Col Hogan]

Wow....you really believe its that black or white....

No, I don't believe it's that black or white, I want it to be that black or white, unlike many here who are satisfied with the difference between us and them being only a matter of degree.

Well, the difference between black and white is just a matter of degree....extreme degree I will grant...

I think people have pointed out the very large degree of difference between us and them...and we must maintain that large degree of difference...but in the battle between Islamic extremism and 21st century civilizations (which is the crux of the on-going battle), your desire for an extreme difference is simply idealistic, not realistic, IMHO...

[houndawg]

No, I don't believe it's that black or white, I want it to be that black or white, unlike many here who are satisfied with the difference between us and them being only a matter of degree.

Well, the difference between black and white is just a matter of degree....extreme degree I will grant...

I think people have pointed out the very large degree of difference between us and them...and we must maintain that large degree of difference...but in the battle between Islamic extremism and 21st century civilizations (which is the crux of the on-going battle), your desire for an extreme difference is simply idealistic, not realistic, IMHO...

That's what I'm driving at, Colonel, the difference isn't big enough, and it isn't because I'm an idealist.
Things like the School of the Americas and extraordinary rendition make the difference between us and them smaller, not larger. I almost agree with your characterization of the big battle, (although it isn't just Islamic extremism that is the enemy, imo), but I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that realistically we have to be somewhat like them.

[Col Hogan]

Well, the difference between black and white is just a matter of degree....extreme degree I will grant...

I think people have pointed out the very large degree of difference between us and them...and we must maintain that large degree of difference...but in the battle between Islamic extremism and 21st century civilizations (which is the crux of the on-going battle), your desire for an extreme difference is simply idealistic, not realistic, IMHO...

That's what I'm driving at, Colonel, the difference isn't big enough, and it isn't because I'm an idealist.
Things like the School of the Americas and extraordinary rendition make the difference between us and them smaller, not larger. I almost agree with your characterization of the big battle, (although it isn't just Islamic extremism that is the enemy, imo), but I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that realistically we have to be somewhat like them.

OK, we disagree...I see it this way....one must modify tactics based on what the enemy (which ever enemy) is using...we can't simply go in with the tactics we have in place, and expect the other side to follow our script...

For example...we have an Army set up for set piece, open plains, tank-centric tactics...worked against the Iraqi Army to a tee...but was a total failure against an insurgency....we adapt...

Our Air Force is set up to win and maintain air supremacy...worked against the Iraqi Air Force (they ran...) but contributes nothing to the battle against insurgents...we adapt (UAV platforms, slow and quiet...etc) and move forward...

Our tactics with regard to interrogation work when we face an organized government sponsored armed force that recognizes things like the Geneva Convention...wee are currently facing an insurgency that recognizes only its 15th century, religious based methods of dealing with "infidels"...why should we not adapt...

[native]

We are not like them, Dawg. We do not execute prisoners, we do not mutilate prisoners, we do not throw acid on schoolgirls' faces, we do not destroy priceless religious relics because they are different from our own religion, we do not behead innocent civilians, we do no desecrate the bodies of prisoners (that we do not execute in the first place), etc...

I call 183 waterboardings, such as we use routinely in our own military training, a non-torture interrogation technique that causes no permanent physical damage.

Any interrogation technique that does not cause permanent physical disability and any interrogation technique that we use in our own military training should be allowable - and provides infinite distinction between us (the GOOD GUYS) and them (the BAD GUYS).

If YOU cannot tell the difference and think it makes us all the same you need to lay off the drugs. Get over your own demons and stop blaming America. With ALL our flaws we are still as pure as the driven snow in comparison to our enemies and still the last best hope for humanity.

You do have a good point stashed in there among your usual smug and patronizing BS, and that is that with all our flaws we are still a better alternative than our enemies. For you, that is enough to excuse our involvement with gitmo, abu Ghraib, and places like the School of the Americas, (where ambitious Latin American dictators send their Secret Police for training); for me, not so much.

Because and only because we are who we are and NOT like the BAD GUYS, you are of course free to perceive me to be smug and say whatever you please.

Call it smug if you wish, but mostly I am just tired of working my ass off, doing the right things, and performing at a much higher personal and societal standard while being criticized by those who don't do the right things and fail to meet the standards.

Gitmo was and is a vacation paradise for BAD GUYS who bore arms against the U.S.

Abu Ghraib was a very regrettable failure of numbnut losers without adult supervision, but no one was killed or tortured there by Americans.

Maybe we have something to talk about regarding the School of the Americas. Maybe.

Unlike most of the lefties on these pages you have actually stood for something worthwhile and accomplished something useful in your life, Dawg. Grow up and act like it!

[native]

No, I don't believe it's that black or white, I want it to be that black or white, unlike many here who are satisfied with the difference between us and them being only a matter of degree.

Well, the difference between black and white is just a matter of degree....extreme degree I will grant...

I think people have pointed out the very large degree of difference between us and them...and we must maintain that large degree of difference...but in the battle between Islamic extremism and 21st century civilizations (which is the crux of the on-going battle), your desire for an extreme difference is simply idealistic, not realistic, IMHO...

The difference between us and them is already extreme, but our fight as exemplified in this thread is mostly within ourselves. We would expect high standards for ourselves regardless of the enemy.

Our drive for perfection must not undermine our ability to survive and prevail. Our standards in action and word must be consistent with our own core values and strategic goals, and defined and articulated clearly enough to be understood and executed at every level.

It is highly desirable to strive for perfection, but bull$h!t for those who fail to meet any standard to criticize those who strive for perfection and but fall short while performing at a very high level.

[native]

That's what I'm driving at, Colonel, the difference isn't big enough, and it isn't because I'm an idealist.
Things like the School of the Americas and extraordinary rendition make the difference between us and them smaller, not larger. I almost agree with your characterization of the big battle, (although it isn't just Islamic extremism that is the enemy, imo), but I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that realistically we have to be somewhat like them.

OK, we disagree...I see it this way....one must modify tactics based on what the enemy (which ever enemy) is using...we can't simply go in with the tactics we have in place, and expect the other side to follow our script...

For example...we have an Army set up for set piece, open plains, tank-centric tactics...worked against the Iraqi Army to a tee...but was a total failure against an insurgency....we adapt...

Our Air Force is set up to win and maintain air supremacy...worked against the Iraqi Air Force (they ran...) but contributes nothing to the battle against insurgents...we adapt (UAV platforms, slow and quiet...etc) and move forward...

Our tactics with regard to interrogation work when we face an organized government sponsored armed force that recognizes things like the Geneva Convention...wee are currently facing an insurgency that recognizes only its 15th century, religious based methods of dealing with "infidels"...why should we not adapt...

Great points about our tactical and strategic adaptability!

But no matter the tactics or strategy, our professional standards are always the highest in history.

[houndawg]

That's what I'm driving at, Colonel, the difference isn't big enough, and it isn't because I'm an idealist.
Things like the School of the Americas and extraordinary rendition make the difference between us and them smaller, not larger. I almost agree with your characterization of the big battle, (although it isn't just Islamic extremism that is the enemy, imo), but I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that realistically we have to be somewhat like them.

OK, we disagree...I see it this way....one must modify tactics based on what the enemy (which ever enemy) is using...we can't simply go in with the tactics we have in place, and expect the other side to follow our script...

For example...we have an Army set up for set piece, open plains, tank-centric tactics...worked against the Iraqi Army to a tee...but was a total failure against an insurgency....we adapt...

Our Air Force is set up to win and maintain air supremacy...worked against the Iraqi Air Force (they ran...) but contributes nothing to the battle against insurgents...we adapt (UAV platforms, slow and quiet...etc) and move forward...

Our tactics with regard to interrogation work when we face an organized government sponsored armed force that recognizes things like the Geneva Convention...wee are currently facing an insurgency that recognizes only its 15th century, religious based methods of dealing with "infidels"...why should we not adapt...

You're analogies don't transfer well, Colonel. You're still saying in your last paragraph that we have to be like them to win. We have to change interrogation techniques because we are facing insurgents rather than uniformed military? I'd like to hear your explanation of why you think that is true.

[houndawg]

You do have a good point stashed in there among your usual smug and patronizing BS, and that is that with all our flaws we are still a better alternative than our enemies. For you, that is enough to excuse our involvement with gitmo, abu Ghraib, and places like the School of the Americas, (where ambitious Latin American dictators send their Secret Police for training); for me, not so much.

Because and only because we are who we are and NOT like the BAD GUYS, you are of course free to perceive me to be smug and say whatever you please.

Call it smug if you wish, but mostly I am just tired of working my ass off, doing the right things, and performing at a much higher personal and societal standard while being criticized by those who don't do the right things and fail to meet the standards.

Gitmo was and is a vacation paradise for BAD GUYS who bore arms against the U.S.

Abu Ghraib was a very regrettable failure of numbnut losers without adult supervision, but no one was killed or tortured there by Americans.

Maybe we have something to talk about regarding the School of the Americas. Maybe.

Unlike most of the lefties on these pages you have actually stood for something worthwhile and accomplished something useful in your life, Dawg. Grow up and act like it!

This is what I mean about your smug patronization. You know all about "the lefties" on these pages and what they've stood for and what they've accomplished. Grow up yourself, Native.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA interrogators threatened an al Qaeda prisoner with a gun and an electric drill to try to scare him into giving up information, according to a long-concealed inspector-general's report due to be made public on Monday, sources familiar with the report confirmed to CNN.

The gun and drill were used in two separate interrogation sessions against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, one of the sources said. Al-Nashiri is accused of plotting the 2000 attack on the USS Cole, which left 17 U.S. sailors dead.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08 ... index.html

ummm....so what....

Exactly, the only thing people should be pissed about is that they were not using a cordless model.

[slycat]

I don't see anything wrong with this technique but waterboarding and other torture methods should never be used.

Read this book and it clear that the US using torture actually creates more hatred towards the US and causes more people to become terrorists.

[AZGrizFan]

If you don't see the difference between attempting to extract information and torturing for sport, then no amount of explaining is going to help. I'm not arguing that torture is EFFECTIVE....but to assume that it doesn't happen for different reasons is naive.

I think you you answered yourself there, amigo; everybody already knows that torture does not provide useful information, so what are these "different reasons" you speak of?

Everybody knows? Are you saying we've NEVER gotten valuable, actionable information from our interrogation methods?

[AZGrizFan]

I don't see anything wrong with this technique but waterboarding and other torture methods should never be used.

Read this book and it clear that the US using torture actually creates more hatred towards the US and causes more people to become terrorists.

Yeah. I'm sure that if we just left the poor, abused muslim extremists alone, drilled for all our OWN oil off the shores of America and in Alaska, they'd just go quietly into the night, conveniently forgetting about the 2000-odd years of constant (albeit with an ebb and a flow) warring between Christians and Muslims.

If the evil Americans would just play NICE, everything would be all better. No more hatred.

"Why can't we all just get along?"

[Grizalltheway]

I don't see anything wrong with this technique but waterboarding and other torture methods should never be used.

Read this book and it clear that the US using torture actually creates more hatred towards the US and causes more people to become terrorists.

Asking a conk to read a book...you've done lost you're mind, slycat!

[AZGrizFan]

I don't see anything wrong with this technique but waterboarding and other torture methods should never be used.

Read this book and it clear that the US using torture actually creates more hatred towards the US and causes more people to become terrorists.

Asking a conk to read a book...you've done lost you're mind, slycat!

That's akin to asking a donk to actually use LOGIC. And facts. And reason. Ain't gonna happen.

[Grizalltheway]

Asking a conk to read a book...you've done lost you're mind, slycat!

That's akin to asking a donk to actually use LOGIC. And facts. And reason. Ain't gonna happen.

I just let GOD tell me how to feel.

[AZGrizFan]

That's akin to asking a donk to actually use LOGIC. And facts. And reason. Ain't gonna happen.

I just let GOD tell me how to feel.

Yeah? Well you ought to listen more closely then.

[houndawg]

I think you you answered yourself there, amigo; everybody already knows that torture does not provide useful information, so what are these "different reasons" you speak of?

Everybody knows? Are you saying we've NEVER gotten valuable, actionable information from our interrogation methods?

No. I'm saying that torture only gets you what the "client" thinks you want to hear or gets somebody to sign or make a false confession.

[houndawg]

I don't see anything wrong with this technique but waterboarding and other torture methods should never be used.

Read this book and it clear that the US using torture actually creates more hatred towards the US and causes more people to become terrorists.

Yeah. I'm sure that if we just left the poor, abused muslim extremists alone, drilled for all our OWN oil off the shores of America and in Alaska, they'd just go quietly into the night, conveniently forgetting about the 2000-odd years of constant (albeit with an ebb and a flow) warring between Christians and Muslims.

If the evil Americans would just play NICE, everything would be all better. No more hatred.

"Why can't we all just get along?"

"Why can't we all just false dichotomize?"

[UNI88]

This "Conk" questions the effectiveness of torture and the accuracy of the information that those methods supply.

The use of torture or what could be perceived as torture needs to be considered not just from the perspective of the immediate value of the information collected but also from the long-term perspective of how it impacts the U.S. and its enemies or potential enemies. IMO, the use of what is perceived as torture damages our credibility in the world and helps our enemies, the terrorists and tin-pot dictators, by making it easier for them to blame the U.S. for their problems, recruit more terrorists, etc. You might think, "who gives a sh!t" and in the short-term you would be right but we are in all likelihood making things tougher for ourselves in the future. Sometimes you have to stop fighting alligators and work on draining the swamp.