The Ukraine Crisis

[Caribbean Hen]

Something we should've done at the start of the war, but Biden didn't want to harm his own re-election hopes so we had a bunch of sanctions that didn't really do very much.

biden was a crappy, wishy-washy President.

BDS

[SeattleGriz]

I do not think giving up land is acceptable. Too many Ukrainian nationalists been given promise of no surrender.

The cost of the war to Russia isn't anything you'd know about. Stop projecting bullshit.

WTF are you talking about not trusting Putin. Minsk I and II. Absolutely shameful fake surrender by Ukraine to gain a tactical advantage.

Putin has been asking Europe for security guarantees since forever.

That last point is just weird. What security guarantees does Russia need? Who is threatening Russia or posing a threat of invading Russia? The answer is nobody. Russia is an aggressor; they are invading other countries. No one, anywhere, is threatening Russia's borders or sovereignty.

1. Early 2000s: A New Security Framework and Arms Control
2. 2007 Munich Security Conference: A Call for a New Global Security Architecture
3. 2009 European Security Treaty Proposal
4. 2021 Draft Treaties with the U.S. and NATO

You're a Russiaphobe. Believes a Commie like Klan is camping out under every bed in America.

[UNI88]

That last point is just weird. What security guarantees does Russia need? Who is threatening Russia or posing a threat of invading Russia? The answer is nobody. Russia is an aggressor; they are invading other countries. No one, anywhere, is threatening Russia's borders or sovereignty.

1. Early 2000s: A New Security Framework and Arms Control
2. 2007 Munich Security Conference: A Call for a New Global Security Architecture
3. 2009 European Security Treaty Proposal
4. 2021 Draft Treaties with the U.S. and NATO

You're a Russiaphobe. Believes a Commie like Klan is camping out under every bed in America.

And you're a russophile.

Why should russia be guaranteed a buffer zone at the expense of the sovereignty of the nations on its border?

Comparing putin asking "Europe for security guarantees since forever" because he feels threatened by NATO expansion to Ukraine likely wanting security guarantees as part of any peace deal as a result of recent russian invasions (emphasis on plural invasions) is hysterical. One is a definite threat, the other is hypothetical.

[SeattleGriz]

1. Early 2000s: A New Security Framework and Arms Control
2. 2007 Munich Security Conference: A Call for a New Global Security Architecture
3. 2009 European Security Treaty Proposal
4. 2021 Draft Treaties with the U.S. and NATO

You're a Russiaphobe. Believes a Commie like Klan is camping out under every bed in America.

And you're a russophile.

Why should russia be guaranteed a buffer zone at the expense of the sovereignty of the nations on its border?

Comparing putin asking "Europe for security guarantees since forever" because he feels threatened by NATO expansion to Ukraine likely wanting security guarantees as part of any peace deal as a result of recent russian invasions (emphasis on plural invasions) is hysterical. One is a definite threat, the other is hypothetical.

Bitch please. Howdawg level defense here.

How many NATO/EU attempts to facilitate a security framework?

The adults are talking. Put a sock in it.

[UNI88]

And you're a russophile.

Why should russia be guaranteed a buffer zone at the expense of the sovereignty of the nations on its border?

Comparing putin asking "Europe for security guarantees since forever" because he feels threatened by NATO expansion to Ukraine likely wanting security guarantees as part of any peace deal as a result of recent russian invasions (emphasis on plural invasions) is hysterical. One is a definite threat, the other is hypothetical.

Bitch please. Howdawg level defense here.

How many NATO/EU attempts to facilitate a security framework?

The adults are talking. Put a sock in it.

You got nothing.

Go out back in your she-shed and whack your birdie.

[SeattleGriz]

Bitch please. Howdawg level defense here.

How many NATO/EU attempts to facilitate a security framework?

The adults are talking. Put a sock in it.

You got nothing.

Go out back in your she-shed and whack your birdie.

No NATO/EU attempts. Got it

[SeattleGriz]

We already do this. Much of the capability relies on US labor and technology from acquisition through targeting. Ukraine would be crippled if you ever took out Western capabilities.

Of course we do, no one is pretending we aren't helping Ukraine as they try to stave off an aggressor. The only thing we don't do is pick the targets or push the buttons. And if Russia hadn't attacked Ukraine we wouldn't be doing any of that.

Yes. We just lock in the coordinates and politely ask Andriy to push the button.

Ukraine sure didn't have a problem slaughtering their own citizens. Putin's authority is preventing terrorism. Surely you don't support the slaughter of innocent E Ukrainians who are being killed by their own government simply for living next to Russia.

[kalm]

[Caribbean Hen]

Putin is the aggressor

After the great Ronald Reagan said, “tear down this wall” the US foreign policy towards Russia has been a perfect example of “stupid times”

We and all the world’s experts and the self appointed geniuses have squandered a great opportunity. That Opportunity that was manufactured by decades of a Cold War. Russia was on their knees and begging for mercy.

Here we are almost 40 years later and our leader Donald Trump is dealing with a big mess that was handed to him. And never forget, Russia patiently waited to carry out their plans after Trump‘s first term.

So although Putin is the aggressor, nobody should pretend that the United States is totally innocent in how we got here, and why is that??

A subject for another day

[GannonFan]

That last point is just weird. What security guarantees does Russia need? Who is threatening Russia or posing a threat of invading Russia? The answer is nobody. Russia is an aggressor; they are invading other countries. No one, anywhere, is threatening Russia's borders or sovereignty.

1. Early 2000s: A New Security Framework and Arms Control
2. 2007 Munich Security Conference: A Call for a New Global Security Architecture
3. 2009 European Security Treaty Proposal
4. 2021 Draft Treaties with the U.S. and NATO

You're a Russiaphobe. Believes a Commie like Klan is camping out under every bed in America.

None of which call for an invasion of Russia. Russia is completely safe and has no fear of being invaded by anybody. They attacked Ukraine. First by illegally seizing Crimea, then by inserting armed insurgents into the eastern part of the country in an attempt to destabilize the country and provide a trumped up excuse to invade, and then by launching an all-out armed invasion of the country, coupled with hundreds if not thousands of attacks against non-military targets. But at no time was Russian sovereignty, over their own country, ever threatened.

[SeattleGriz]

1. Early 2000s: A New Security Framework and Arms Control
2. 2007 Munich Security Conference: A Call for a New Global Security Architecture
3. 2009 European Security Treaty Proposal
4. 2021 Draft Treaties with the U.S. and NATO

You're a Russiaphobe. Believes a Commie like Klan is camping out under every bed in America.

None of which call for an invasion of Russia. Russia is completely safe and has no fear of being invaded by anybody. They attacked Ukraine. First by illegally seizing Crimea, then by inserting armed insurgents into the eastern part of the country in an attempt to destabilize the country and provide a trumped up excuse to invade, and then by launching an all-out armed invasion of the country, coupled with hundreds if not thousands of attacks against non-military targets. But at no time was Russian sovereignty, over their own country, ever threatened.

It wasn't about invading Russia. It was about knuckling them under and then there is only China.This was always the plan, admitted by dipshit Victoria Nuland when she said "fuck the EU" in giving them a choice as to who they would allow to take over Ukraine after Maiden.

Putin reached out four times asking for security agreements where he wouldn't be boxed in. Putin offered Ukraine everything they had if they'd only agree to stay neutral, but the US and UK shot it down

In regards to Crimea, they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. You expect anything Ukraine to be upheld, but then want to deny citizens the right to get out of an abusive relationship, all of a sudden it's not fair.

Russia was asked for help by the Ukrainians that were being slaughtered by its own government. They even voted to join Russia! The US calls what Ukraine was doing to its own citizens terrorism, and allows us to invade any country we want. Why is Russia different and why won't you honor the Donbass the opportunity for autonomy?

Nevermind it's common knowledge Ukraine was amassing troops and ready to invade the Donbass, but you keep going with the unprovoked narrative. What was Putin supposed to do? Let the Ukrainian military invade the Donbass and try to slaughter more people? Russian speaking people that asked for his help?

Lastly, where in the hell were you for the previous 8 years before the SMO when Ukraine was killing its own citizens? Huh? Where were you then? Where were you when the Azov mercenaries were brought in to slaughter those simply wanting autonomy?

This guy has been pretty level headed and informed of weapon systems if you care .

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/living-dangerously

[Caribbean Hen]

SG, my instincts tell me you are one of the few trusted sources on here.

[GannonFan]

SG, my instincts tell me you are one of the few trusted sources on here.

Then you have terrible instincts. Don't rely on just them then.

[GannonFan]

None of which call for an invasion of Russia. Russia is completely safe and has no fear of being invaded by anybody. They attacked Ukraine. First by illegally seizing Crimea, then by inserting armed insurgents into the eastern part of the country in an attempt to destabilize the country and provide a trumped up excuse to invade, and then by launching an all-out armed invasion of the country, coupled with hundreds if not thousands of attacks against non-military targets. But at no time was Russian sovereignty, over their own country, ever threatened.

It wasn't about invading Russia. It was about knuckling them under and then there is only China.This was always the plan, admitted by dipshit Victoria Nuland when she said "fuck the EU" in giving them a choice as to who they would allow to take over Ukraine after Maiden.

Putin reached out four times asking for security agreements where he wouldn't be boxed in. Putin offered Ukraine everything they had if they'd only agree to stay neutral, but the US and UK shot it down

In regards to Crimea, they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. You expect anything Ukraine to be upheld, but then want to deny citizens the right to get out of an abusive relationship, all of a sudden it's not fair.

Russia was asked for help by the Ukrainians that were being slaughtered by its own government. They even voted to join Russia! The US calls what Ukraine was doing to its own citizens terrorism, and allows us to invade any country we want. Why is Russia different and why won't you honor the Donbass the opportunity for autonomy?

Nevermind it's common knowledge Ukraine was amassing troops and ready to invade the Donbass, but you keep going with the unprovoked narrative. What was Putin supposed to do? Let the Ukrainian military invade the Donbass and try to slaughter more people? Russian speaking people that asked for his help?

Lastly, where in the hell were you for the previous 8 years before the SMO when Ukraine was killing its own citizens? Huh? Where were you then? Where were you when the Azov mercenaries were brought in to slaughter those simply wanting autonomy?

This guy has been pretty level headed and informed of weapon systems if you care .

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/living-dangerously

Russia has been interfering in Ukraine since at least the late 90's, and certainly since Putin got hold of any power dating back to 1999. His desire has always been to resurrect something close to the Soviet Union, which he saw as unfairly dismantled through influence from the West and weak leaders in Russia. When you are responsible for fomenting dissent in the eastern part of Ukraine, done over the past two decades through constant insertion of militia forces, with the goal of seizing political and military power in all of Ukraine, then it does start to undermine the whole reason why you're there in the first place. And you can't honestly say that the highly suspect and irregular referendums, condemned by all independent watch groups, and done in violation of Ukrainian law as it stands relative to territorial changes, could be anything close to valid. Referendums done via the point of the bayonet tend to be invalid.

[SeattleGriz]

SG, my instincts tell me you are one of the few trusted sources on here.

In the very beginning, I stated due to the stretching of truth during Covid that I was going to take the exact opposite of what our media tells us about Ukraine.

Been an interesting journey as it's brought me to sources I would have waved off as too liberal in the past.

What I've found are people that are actually familiar with both sides of the conversation, but more importantly, people that are willing to actually travel over to Russia and Ukraine and perform real journalism unlike WaPo and many Western sources that get fed what to say.

My favorite was when I quoted one of these sites during the initial stages of the SMO because they had a reporter on the ground who spoke the local languages. The reporter essentially said those that had the means (money) were able to get out quickly and go where they wanted. A truth we all pretty much know.

That got me labeled as Putin's puppet.

I'm not happy about the war at all because it's fucking brutal and no one deserves that. I love the US and understand we need to play geopolitics to protect ourselves and the future, but holy shit did we break a lot of eggs making this omelet. Ukraine is paying that price.

[SeattleGriz]

It wasn't about invading Russia. It was about knuckling them under and then there is only China.This was always the plan, admitted by dipshit Victoria Nuland when she said "fuck the EU" in giving them a choice as to who they would allow to take over Ukraine after Maiden.

Putin reached out four times asking for security agreements where he wouldn't be boxed in. Putin offered Ukraine everything they had if they'd only agree to stay neutral, but the US and UK shot it down

In regards to Crimea, they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. You expect anything Ukraine to be upheld, but then want to deny citizens the right to get out of an abusive relationship, all of a sudden it's not fair.

Russia was asked for help by the Ukrainians that were being slaughtered by its own government. They even voted to join Russia! The US calls what Ukraine was doing to its own citizens terrorism, and allows us to invade any country we want. Why is Russia different and why won't you honor the Donbass the opportunity for autonomy?

Nevermind it's common knowledge Ukraine was amassing troops and ready to invade the Donbass, but you keep going with the unprovoked narrative. What was Putin supposed to do? Let the Ukrainian military invade the Donbass and try to slaughter more people? Russian speaking people that asked for his help?

Lastly, where in the hell were you for the previous 8 years before the SMO when Ukraine was killing its own citizens? Huh? Where were you then? Where were you when the Azov mercenaries were brought in to slaughter those simply wanting autonomy?

This guy has been pretty level headed and informed of weapon systems if you care .

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/living-dangerously

Russia has been interfering in Ukraine since at least the late 90's, and certainly since Putin got hold of any power dating back to 1999. His desire has always been to resurrect something close to the Soviet Union, which he saw as unfairly dismantled through influence from the West and weak leaders in Russia. When you are responsible for fomenting dissent in the eastern part of Ukraine, done over the past two decades through constant insertion of militia forces, with the goal of seizing political and military power in all of Ukraine, then it does start to undermine the whole reason why you're there in the first place. And you can't honestly say that the highly suspect and irregular referendums, condemned by all independent watch groups, and done in violation of Ukrainian law as it stands relative to territorial changes, could be anything close to valid. Referendums done via the point of the bayonet tend to be invalid.

How do you know what his desire is? Do you have any reliable sources that have him quoted as saying such?

Because guys like Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer and Jaques Baud don't agree with you. I would bet they've been paying attention for a lot longer than the majority on the subject.

You still keep dodging the fact the Ukrainians government started the war in 2014 against their own people. You have nothing to say about that, or will you simply hand wave away the ethnic cleansing as you did on Putin's attempts since 2000 to engage in a security agreement?

Seems really odd Putin wants security agreements when his plan, according to you, was to overrun Europe.

[GannonFan]

Russia has been interfering in Ukraine since at least the late 90's, and certainly since Putin got hold of any power dating back to 1999. His desire has always been to resurrect something close to the Soviet Union, which he saw as unfairly dismantled through influence from the West and weak leaders in Russia. When you are responsible for fomenting dissent in the eastern part of Ukraine, done over the past two decades through constant insertion of militia forces, with the goal of seizing political and military power in all of Ukraine, then it does start to undermine the whole reason why you're there in the first place. And you can't honestly say that the highly suspect and irregular referendums, condemned by all independent watch groups, and done in violation of Ukrainian law as it stands relative to territorial changes, could be anything close to valid. Referendums done via the point of the bayonet tend to be invalid.

How do you know what his desire is? Do you have any reliable sources that have him quoted as saying such?

Because guys like Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer and Jaques Baud don't agree with you. I would bet they've been paying attention for a lot longer than the majority on the subject.

You still keep dodging the fact the Ukrainians government started the war in 2014 against their own people. You have nothing to say about that, or will you simply hand wave away the ethnic cleansing as you did on Putin's attempts since 2000 to engage in a security agreement?

Seems really odd Putin wants security agreements when his plan, according to you, was to overrun Europe.

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about overrunning Europe. Like most of your posts, you just made that up out of thin air.

By 2014, there was already a decade's worth of Russian insertion of militia into the Eastern parts of Ukraine. I've said that over and over again - just because you don't listen doesn't mean I'm not saying it. Displacement of ethnic Ukrainians out of these areas and replacing them with Russian implants, and then holding votes at gunpoint with the new population, does not really lend itself to trust in the electoral system. And again, security agreements from what? Who or what are threatening the sovereignty or borders of Russia? Absolutely no one. It's pathological to say you need security from phantom threats. No one is invading or threatening Russia, so again, security agreements from who? Demanding subservience and capitulation from the countries that border Russia completely disregards the rights of those countries for their own security and make it clear that Russia isn't about its own security, it's about its domination of territory it used to hold under what it considers to be sunnier times.

[Caribbean Hen]

SG, my instincts tell me you are one of the few trusted sources on here.

Then you have terrible instincts. Don't rely on just them then.

My instincts are all I have and I have a lot to show for them

By the way, I said a few sources I trust and I didn’t list who those trusted sources are

How do you know that you’re not one of them?

[SeattleGriz]

How do you know what his desire is? Do you have any reliable sources that have him quoted as saying such?

Because guys like Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer and Jaques Baud don't agree with you. I would bet they've been paying attention for a lot longer than the majority on the subject.

You still keep dodging the fact the Ukrainians government started the war in 2014 against their own people. You have nothing to say about that, or will you simply hand wave away the ethnic cleansing as you did on Putin's attempts since 2000 to engage in a security agreement?

Seems really odd Putin wants security agreements when his plan, according to you, was to overrun Europe.

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about overrunning Europe. Like most of your posts, you just made that up out of thin air.

By 2014, there was already a decade's worth of Russian insertion of militia into the Eastern parts of Ukraine. I've said that over and over again - just because you don't listen doesn't mean I'm not saying it. Displacement of ethnic Ukrainians out of these areas and replacing them with Russian implants, and then holding votes at gunpoint with the new population, does not really lend itself to trust in the electoral system. And again, security agreements from what? Who or what are threatening the sovereignty or borders of Russia? Absolutely no one. It's pathological to say you need security from phantom threats. No one is invading or threatening Russia, so again, security agreements from who? Demanding subservience and capitulation from the countries that border Russia completely disregards the rights of those countries for their own security and make it clear that Russia isn't about its own security, it's about its domination of territory it used to hold under what it considers to be sunnier times.

Once again. Can you back any of these fantastical claims up with anything other than Brian Stelter level reporting. How about something from E European news?

You still didn't answer why you don't give two shits about Ukraine killing its own citizens and why they don't have the right to be left alone?

[Caribbean Hen]

How do you know what his desire is? Do you have any reliable sources that have him quoted as saying such?

Because guys like Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer and Jaques Baud don't agree with you. I would bet they've been paying attention for a lot longer than the majority on the subject.

You still keep dodging the fact the Ukrainians government started the war in 2014 against their own people. You have nothing to say about that, or will you simply hand wave away the ethnic cleansing as you did on Putin's attempts since 2000 to engage in a security agreement?

Seems really odd Putin wants security agreements when his plan, according to you, was to overrun Europe.

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about overrunning Europe. Like most of your posts, you just made that up out of thin air.

By 2014, there was already a decade's worth of Russian insertion of militia into the Eastern parts of Ukraine. I've said that over and over again - just because you don't listen doesn't mean I'm not saying it. Displacement of ethnic Ukrainians out of these areas and replacing them with Russian implants, and then holding votes at gunpoint with the new population, does not really lend itself to trust in the electoral system. And again, security agreements from what? Who or what are threatening the sovereignty or borders of Russia? Absolutely no one. It's pathological to say you need security from phantom threats. No one is invading or threatening Russia, so again, security agreements from who? Demanding subservience and capitulation from the countries that border Russia completely disregards the rights of those countries for their own security and make it clear that Russia isn't about its own security, it's about its domination of territory it used to hold under what it considers to be sunnier times.

Can you roll back the clock to 1989 and tell us what happened with Russia and the United States?

[GannonFan]

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about overrunning Europe. Like most of your posts, you just made that up out of thin air.

By 2014, there was already a decade's worth of Russian insertion of militia into the Eastern parts of Ukraine. I've said that over and over again - just because you don't listen doesn't mean I'm not saying it. Displacement of ethnic Ukrainians out of these areas and replacing them with Russian implants, and then holding votes at gunpoint with the new population, does not really lend itself to trust in the electoral system. And again, security agreements from what? Who or what are threatening the sovereignty or borders of Russia? Absolutely no one. It's pathological to say you need security from phantom threats. No one is invading or threatening Russia, so again, security agreements from who? Demanding subservience and capitulation from the countries that border Russia completely disregards the rights of those countries for their own security and make it clear that Russia isn't about its own security, it's about its domination of territory it used to hold under what it considers to be sunnier times.

Once again. Can you back any of these fantastical claims up with anything other than Brian Stelter level reporting. How about something from E European news?

You still didn't answer why you don't give two shits about Ukraine killing its own citizens and why they don't have the right to be left alone?

Well, when you back most of your stuff up with Russian government produced propaganda, sure, hearing the other side of things is going to be pretty jarring. Try not being a Russian bot and it's amazing what else is out there.

You also still didn't answer the question about why you don't give two **** about Russian mercenaries and militia fomenting chaos in the eastern part of Ukraine for the past 20 years. Didn't the folks there have the right to be left alone?

[Skjellyfetti]

And, even more than fomenting chaos in eastern Ukraine - they fucking tried to assassinate the previous pro-Western President.

[GannonFan]

An interesting sidebar, I honestly had no idea the word was "fomenting", I've probably for the last 50 years or so thought it was "formenting". Thanks to this thread, I'm already a better person, one correctly spelled word at a time!

[SeattleGriz]

An interesting sidebar, I honestly had no idea the word was "fomenting", I've probably for the last 50 years or so thought it was "formenting". Thanks to this thread, I'm already a better person, one correctly spelled word at a time!

You've paid a steep price to become a better person.

[SeattleGriz]

And, even more than fomenting chaos in eastern Ukraine - they fucking tried to assassinate the previous pro-Western President.

Bitch please. They in no way have tied this to Russia. Holy shit, Vlad isn't under your bed.