US Debt Visualized

[kalm]

What company is largely automated, i.e. no or few employees? I couldn't think of an example of what you're referring to.

And yes, for retirement, we have to do better. I agreed with the pushback of not privatizing Social Security back during the W years because, as one of my grandmothers pointed out, what do we do with the folks who blow it when it comes to properly investing on their own? Because there will be many, many who do this.

The automation is forward looking. We're not there yet but we're on our way, it's more a matter of when not if. How do you pay for infrastructure when a plant, delivery vehicles/methods, etc. are largely automated? It's a future problem but one we'd be smart to be considering now.

My "rant" on social security:

• I see all these social media posts about it being "my money" and not welfare. That's partially true - people get back more than what they pay in plus interest. That extra isn't "their money" or welfare, it's money from people who didn't live long enough to collect.
• I think social security should be a defined contribution plan, you get what you pay in plus interest and your heirs get what you leave behind.
• I would like to have some control over how my social security is invested but I get that some would blow it. That's why the choices would need to be limited. I don't think it would be that big of a stretch to go from absolutely no control to having a limited number of choices with guiderails.
• I would have a lot more social security income available in retirement if I could have put some of it into equities. Yes, there would have been ups and downs but the ups would have crushed the downs over the course of 40+ years of working.

Could we still have folks who blow it? Yes but I am a small l Libertarian so I don't think a little Darwinism is a bad thing. Personal responsibility is an important part of personal freedom.

Good discussion, gents. I appreciate the counter arguments. I have some replies which I’ll get to when I have more time and an opportunity to look up some stats.

[BDKJMU]

Lower corporate taxes have very likely benefited a lot or people saving for retirement. Defined benefit pension plans are going away for valid reasonr. I would much rather rely on the market to help build and maintain my retirement nest egg then be dependent on government programs. We should be encouraging and teaching people how to be at least basic investors not demonizing the market.

My point, which I’ve made before, is corporate taxes once represented nearly 40% of revenues. Not to mention, the original idea of incorporation was to serve the public good. This typically involved public works projects and services like the Erie Canal. Perpetual private gain and generational wealth was not the intent.

But where are we going to make up that revenue today?

I agree in the personal responsibility of saving and investing for retirement. It just doesn’t seem realistic. Especially given our collective lack of financial literacy.

And they once represented zero % of revenues. For the 1st 137 years out of 250 of the US..

[BDKJMU]

What company is largely automated, i.e. no or few employees? I couldn't think of an example of what you're referring to.

And yes, for retirement, we have to do better. I agreed with the pushback of not privatizing Social Security back during the W years because, as one of my grandmothers pointed out, what do we do with the folks who blow it when it comes to properly investing on their own? Because there will be many, many who do this.

The automation is forward looking. We're not there yet but we're on our way, it's more a matter of when not if. How do you pay for infrastructure when a plant, delivery vehicles/methods, etc. are largely automated? It's a future problem but one we'd be smart to be considering now.

My "rant" on social security:

• I see all these social media posts about it being "my money" and not welfare. That's partially true - people get back more than what they pay in plus interest. That extra isn't "their money" or welfare, it's money from people who didn't live long enough to collect.
• I think social security should be a defined contribution plan, you get what you pay in plus interest and your heirs get what you leave behind.
• I would like to have some control over how my social security is invested but I get that some would blow it. That's why the choices would need to be limited. I don't think it would be that big of a stretch to go from absolutely no control to having a limited number of choices with guiderails.
• I would have a lot more social security income available in retirement if I could have put some of it into equities. Yes, there would have been ups and downs but the ups would have crushed the downs over the course of 40+ years of working.

Could we still have folks who blow it? Yes but I am a small l Libertarian so I don't think a little Darwinism is a bad thing. Personal responsibility is an important part of personal freedom.

Ha, something we pretty much agree on.

And yet this is one of the most intractable issues facing the US over the next couple of decades..

[kalm]

My point, which I’ve made before, is corporate taxes once represented nearly 40% of revenues. Not to mention, the original idea of incorporation was to serve the public good. This typically involved public works projects and services like the Erie Canal. Perpetual private gain and generational wealth was not the intent.

But where are we going to make up that revenue today?

I agree in the personal responsibility of saving and investing for retirement. It just doesn’t seem realistic. Especially given our collective lack of financial literacy.

And they once represented zero % of revenues. For the 1st 137 years out of 250 of the US..

Let’s try and keep it this one within the last one hundred years.

[BDKJMU]

And they once represented zero % of revenues. For the 1st 137 years out of 250 of the US..

Let’s try and keep it this one within the last one hundred years.

Why? This country survived fine for 137 years with no:
-Fed
-No permanent fed income tax.

What did the Fed do?
-Gave us a permanent fed income tax for the 1st time (only briefly had during the Civil War).
-Complete removed any constraint on the Fed govt‘s ability to print, spend, and borrow $$ without a counterbalance put in place, such as a balanced budget amendment with the exception of years of declared war. This has led to 2 things.
1. Almost every year inflation
2. A massive national debt.
-Going off memory, so not going to look up links, the century prior to the creation of the Fed, dollar lost only something like 7% of its value. Had periods of inflation, deflation, but overall balanced out. Since the the Fed dollar has lost something about 97% of its value.

[Caribbean Hen]

TDS in remission? 88 won’t get his wish on social Security because of Democrats. Remember, they say it’s too hard for their constituents to get the necessary IDs that should be required for voting, so their is no way they would let them manage their own retirement accounts.

Maybe ChatGPT 88 should get one of those Trump accounts

At least Scott Bisson brought up the idea of privatizing Social Security, and I realize it’s been talked about for decades, but apparently he had to back down off of that statement… he probably got death threads from some of the Democrats

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/bes ... =124248243

[Caribbean Hen]

Hey Klamdami, you laughed when I told you years ago that raising taxes on corporations doesn’t necessarily raise revenue

We know you wanna string the USA up, but thank goodness Americans and their businesses can still find a way to legally wiggle out of your neuce

[kalm]

Hey Klamdami, you laughed when I told you years ago that raising taxes on corporations doesn’t necessarily raise revenue

We know you wanna string the USA up, but thank goodness Americans and their businesses can still find a way to legally wiggle out of your neuce

Yeah! Let’s have zero taxes and privatize infrastructure, schools, environmental clean up, war, healthcare, crop subsidies and insurance, national parks and public lands.

Whatever could go wrong!

[kalm]

Let’s try and keep it this one within the last one hundred years.

Why? This country survived fine for 137 years with no:
-Fed
-No permanent fed income tax.

What did the Fed do?
-Gave us a permanent fed income tax for the 1st time (only briefly had during the Civil War).
-Complete removed any constraint on the Fed govt‘s ability to print, spend, and borrow $$ without a counterbalance put in place, such as a balanced budget amendment with the exception of years of declared war. This has led to 2 things.
1. Almost every year inflation
2. A massive national debt.
-Going off memory, so not going to look up links, the century prior to the creation of the Fed, dollar lost only something like 7% of its value. Had periods of inflation, deflation, but overall balanced out. Since the the Fed dollar has lost something about 97% of its value.

I’m not a huge fan of the FED either but your reply still doesn’t answer how we replace the revenue lost from various tax cuts. Supply side is an utter failure. A dwindling middle class with wages that don’t keep
Up with certain inflation like home ownership, doesn’t help.

No one wants to pay taxes but everyone still expects their benefits from government spending. From defense contractors to welfare recipients.

Name one tax-less country who has succeeded.

It’s like socialized medicine in comparing our system to others. The cost savings alone are worth it.

[kalm]

And this is how I know you MAGA deficit hawks are full of shit. You don’t care if the constitution (or Jesus for that matter) are honored. You worship a low IQ grifter. Congrats!

[kalm]

[UNI88]

I'm not a big tax the rich person but doctor oz is being an insufferable twat on this one.

He wants me to work a year or two longer to benefit the US economy? I've worked hard to get to where I am and to be able to retire when I want to. Add in my health concerns and why should I give up a year or two of whatever time I have left to benefit the US economy? If it's fair to suggest that I do so then it is at least as fair to suggest that billionaires pay a little more as well. Doctor oz should engage brain before opening mouth.

[Caribbean Hen]

Hey Klamdami, you laughed when I told you years ago that raising taxes on corporations doesn’t necessarily raise revenue

We know you wanna string the USA up, but thank goodness Americans and their businesses can still find a way to legally wiggle out of your neuce

Yeah! Let’s have zero taxes and privatize infrastructure, schools, environmental clean up, war, healthcare, crop subsidies and insurance, national parks and public lands.

Whatever could go wrong!

What was the operating budget of those one room school houses 150 years ago?

100 years ago? The WW 2 generation was really good as well.

Youngsters were better at basic reading, writing and arithmetic at a much higher level than today.

And you wanna keep throwing money at education …. shame on you.

[kalm]

Yeah! Let’s have zero taxes and privatize infrastructure, schools, environmental clean up, war, healthcare, crop subsidies and insurance, national parks and public lands.

Whatever could go wrong!

What was the operating budget of those one room school houses 150 years ago?

100 years ago? The WW 2 generation was really good as well.

Youngsters were better at basic reading, writing and arithmetic at a much higher level than today.

And you wanna keep throwing money at education …. shame on you.

Do you have a link to back that shit up? Or did you learn it on the streets?

Educational outcomes are tied to wealth and parenting among other things.

I’m guessing educational outcomes and things like literacy rates, level of schooling, etc are significantly higher today. Especially for the working class.

There’s nothing wrong with well funded schools in affluent districts.

People who blame education like this tend to be semi-literate, ill-informed types.

Although I do like the idea of one room school houses and smaller class size. Build more schools and hire more teachers, I say!

[Caribbean Hen]

What was the operating budget of those one room school houses 150 years ago?

100 years ago? The WW 2 generation was really good as well.

Youngsters were better at basic reading, writing and arithmetic at a much higher level than today.

And you wanna keep throwing money at education …. shame on you.

Do you have a link to back that shit up? Or did you learn it on the streets?

Educational outcomes are tied to wealth and parenting among other things.

I’m guessing educational outcomes and things like literacy rates, level of schooling, etc are significantly higher today. Especially for the working class.

There’s nothing wrong with well funded schools in affluent districts.

People who blame education like this tend to be semi-literate, ill-informed types.

Although I do like the idea of one room school houses and smaller class size. Build more schools and hire more teachers, I say!

I have this these views from being on the job as a young apprentice to a master of the trade before I was all washed up

40 years ago, I thought the college boys were really impressive knowledge wise, the cream of the crop. Somewhere along the line, everything changed.

Back in the day, college material kids went to college. if you weren’t college material, you did something else

Today, too many people are brainwashed that college is the only way. The truth is tough, but the streets tell no lies

[UNI88]

Do you have a link to back that shit up? Or did you learn it on the streets?

Educational outcomes are tied to wealth and parenting among other things.

I’m guessing educational outcomes and things like literacy rates, level of schooling, etc are significantly higher today. Especially for the working class.

There’s nothing wrong with well funded schools in affluent districts.

People who blame education like this tend to be semi-literate, ill-informed types.

Although I do like the idea of one room school houses and smaller class size. Build more schools and hire more teachers, I say!

I have this these views from being on the job as a young apprentice to a master of the trade before I was all washed up

40 years ago, I thought the college boys were really impressive knowledge wise, the cream of the crop. Somewhere along the line, everything changed.

Back in the day, college material kids went to college. if you weren’t college material, you did something else

Today, too many people are brainwashed that college is the only way. The truth is tough, but the streets tell no lies

I didn't realize that Master Baters took on apprentices. That must be some awkward training.


It's all stereotypes and generalizations.

My kids could run circles around me when it comes to math. They're excellent readers. I'm probably a better writer but AI is already changing how we write similar to the way that calculators changed how we did math.

We can pine for the old days or we can adapt to and prepare for the future. Long term success increases significantly if we adapt and prepare.

[BDKJMU]

Why? This country survived fine for 137 years with no:
-Fed
-No permanent fed income tax.

What did the Fed do?
-Gave us a permanent fed income tax for the 1st time (only briefly had during the Civil War).
-Complete removed any constraint on the Fed govt‘s ability to print, spend, and borrow $$ without a counterbalance put in place, such as a balanced budget amendment with the exception of years of declared war. This has led to 2 things.
1. Almost every year inflation
2. A massive national debt.
-Going off memory, so not going to look up links, the century prior to the creation of the Fed, dollar lost only something like 7% of its value. Had periods of inflation, deflation, but overall balanced out. Since the the Fed dollar has lost something about 97% of its value.

I’m not a huge fan of the FED either but your reply still doesn’t answer how we replace the revenue lost from various tax cuts. Supply side is an utter failure. A dwindling middle class with wages that don’t keep
Up with certain inflation like home ownership, doesn’t help.

No one wants to pay taxes but everyone still expects their benefits from government spending. From defense contractors to welfare recipients.

Name one tax-less country who has succeeded.

It’s like socialized medicine in comparing our system to others. The cost savings alone are worth it.

The US wouldn’t be taxless if you got ride of the income tax. There are 9 states with no income tax. They aren‘t taxless.

Yeah, through rationing. And like I have pointed out, those others you like to compare us to (Western Europe, esp Scandinavian) don’t have near the obesity level, processed foods, sedentary lifestyles, near the population size and % minority population the US has. If you think we would have cost savings without rationing and without a lower level of health care for many, then I have some oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

[UNI88]

I’m not a huge fan of the FED either but your reply still doesn’t answer how we replace the revenue lost from various tax cuts. Supply side is an utter failure. A dwindling middle class with wages that don’t keep
Up with certain inflation like home ownership, doesn’t help.

No one wants to pay taxes but everyone still expects their benefits from government spending. From defense contractors to welfare recipients.

Name one tax-less country who has succeeded.

It’s like socialized medicine in comparing our system to others. The cost savings alone are worth it.

The US wouldn’t be taxless if you got ride of the income tax. There are 9 states with no income tax. They aren‘t taxless.

Yeah, through rationing. And like I have pointed out, those others you like to compare us to (Western Europe, esp Scandinavian) don’t have near the obesity level, processed foods, sedentary lifestyles, near the population size and % minority population the US has. If you think we would have cost savings without rationing and without a lower level of health care for many, then I have some oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

An income tax by itself is not a bad thing. An income tax that is paid by poor and middle class but the wealthy are able to avoid is a problem that should be addressed. I don't mind progressive taxes but they should be flatter with fewer loopholes (that will help catch those billionaires) and they absolutely should be less complicated.

Taxes are relative to circumstances (anecdotal story): I've been running my retirement numbers and options. Oregon has a personal income tax of up to 9.9% and taxes a lot of retirement income so I looked at states with no or lower income taxes to evaluate the financial advantage of retiring elsewhere. Long story short, there doesn't appear to be one for me. I love where I live for the on the water lifestyle and views and to find someplace comparable in a no/low tax state, I would have a significantly higher mortgage and pay significantly more in property taxes which would eat away all of my income tax savings plus more to the point where Oregon is the cheaper option without question.

[BDKJMU]

Simple fix: People get what they and their spouse paid in, adjusted for inflation, no mas. And if they die early, their heirs get the remaining. The way it’s set up now is a scam.

[Caribbean Hen]

Simple fix: People get what they and their spouse paid in, adjusted for inflation, no mas. And if they die early, their heirs get the remaining. The way it’s set up now is a scam.

Horrible

And don’t wait until your 70 to take it

[kalm]

Simple fix: People get what they and their spouse paid in, adjusted for inflation, no mas. And if they die early, their heirs get the remaining. The way it’s set up now is a scam.

That’s how insurance works. My dad paid in his whole career as a coach and professor then died at 63. Mom lived to 84 collecting 20 years worth.

Your politicians want it changed because financial institutions want a cut of the action.