Obama scraps Bush's European missile defense plan

[AZGrizFan]

Why we would spend one dollar on a European defense system is mind numbing to me...
(Team America World Police)

Let's not inject common sense and fiscal responsibility into this.

Who cares if we piss of our allies, huh?

[dbackjon]

Let's not inject common sense and fiscal responsibility into this.

Who cares if we piss of our allies, huh?

Why, that was never a concern the last 8 years, why start worrying about that now.

They're either with us, or against us, right?

[Chizzang]

Wouldn't that be the same as staying out of WWII and handing Europe over the the Germans? Do you favor a "fortress Europe" dominated by the Russians?

I'm sorry, excuse me...
but it sounds like you're comparing today (right now - this moment) to world war II..?

Dude.. really..? You are either seriously delusional or you're playing a funny joke..

[Appaholic]

All the more reason to get into the business of defending yourself...
Poland and CZ have been banging heads with Russia for a long long time - U.S. involvement needs to be at arms length - Europe needs to be able to "manage" Russia - either as EU all at once or one at a time, but it should have little to do with U.S. weaponry or U.S. diplomacy

We don;t need to "insert" ourselves in there... Team America World Police needs to quietly fade into the distance as a policy - as ancient history - as an example of how we "used to behave"

just my 2 cents

again: Why we would spend one dollar on a European defense system is beyond me..?

Wouldn't that be the same as staying out of WWII and handing Europe over the the Germans? Do you favor a "fortress Europe" dominated by the Russians?

Nope...but I think Europe should at least be a little more concerned about a "fortress Europe" dominated by the Russians than us....you know....since they live there.....

[CID1990]

All the more reason to get into the business of defending yourself...
Poland and CZ have been banging heads with Russia for a long long time - U.S. involvement needs to be at arms length - Europe needs to be able to "manage" Russia - either as EU all at once or one at a time, but it should have little to do with U.S. weaponry or U.S. diplomacy

We don;t need to "insert" ourselves in there... Team America World Police needs to quietly fade into the distance as a policy - as ancient history - as an example of how we "used to behave"

just my 2 cents

again: Why we would spend one dollar on a European defense system is beyond me..?

What about our NATO obligations? Cleets, where do you draw the line?

Our NATO obligations do not equate to standing in the center of a bunch of children, handing out candy. Europe has benefitted for more than 50 years of not having to devote large amounts of their GDP to defense because we were always there to provide men and materiel. I believe in a strong NATO, but I also believe that we should not be carrying the load in the same way that we carry the load in the UN. The technology that we would be using in POL and CZ is off the shelf stuff and the French and Germans have similarly capable systems. If the EU wants to play with the big boys, then it needs to be able to look out for its own strategic interests. They have been having their cake and eating it too for almost 20 years now.

Poland an CZ are ideal locations for basing a missle umbrella to counter Iran. However, the real strategic threat from that region does not point to an attack on Europe. Russia is going to beat the drum over any military additions in the region, and they are understandably sensitive to that (although not rationally). The decision to back off of the POL-CZ plan is simply Russian appeasement, although I agree with it for different reasons, as I stated above.

There have been allusions on this board to the fact that we are turning our backs on Eastern Europe and leaving them at the mercy of a re-emergent Russia. My reply to that would be to point out that the proposed system was a counter to Iran... not Russia. If common sentiment even on a football message board says that we are abandoning our allies to Russian influence, then how are we supposed to convince the Russians that the system is not intended to shoot down Russian missiles? I grew up in the Cold War. In spite of all the raghead terrorists running around, I still like things the way they are now more than the way they were.

As for living next to the Russian mob... Poland and CZ have short memories if they do not recall that Stalin occupied their countries and maintained control there because FDR all but told Stalin he was OK with it in Tehran in 1943. The moral of that story is that if you want guarantees of security you need to provide it yourself rather than looking to other countries to do it for you.

[Appaholic]

Our NATO obligations do not equate to standing in the center of a bunch of children, handing out candy. Europe has benefitted for more than 50 years of not having to devote large amounts of their GDP to defense because we were always there to provide men and materiel. I believe in a strong NATO, but I also believe that we should not be carrying the load in the same way that we carry the load in the UN. The technology that we would be using in POL and CZ is off the shelf stuff and the French and Germans have similarly capable systems. If the EU wants to play with the big boys, then it needs to be able to look out for its own strategic interests. They have been having their cake and eating it too for almost 20 years now.

The moral of that story is that if you want guarantees of security you need to provide it yourself rather than looking to other countries to do it for you.

Cid, Cid, Cid... ...come now....how ever will Europe be able to look down her Socialist nose at us ugly Americans if she has to use her own money & labor force for her own protection...that'll put a kink in the Liberal Utopian ideal that is Europe.... ...quit being so over the top and ridiculous...

[native]

......As for living next to the Russian mob... Poland and CZ have short memories if they do not recall that Stalin occupied their countries and maintained control there because FDR all but told Stalin he was OK with it in Tehran in 1943. The moral of that story is that if you want guarantees of security you need to provide it yourself rather than looking to other countries to do it for you.

Of course Poland and the Czech Republic remember. That's why they have been our staunchest supporters over the past decade. We should not have abandoned them so precipitously.

[CID1990]

......As for living next to the Russian mob... Poland and CZ have short memories if they do not recall that Stalin occupied their countries and maintained control there because FDR all but told Stalin he was OK with it in Tehran in 1943. The moral of that story is that if you want guarantees of security you need to provide it yourself rather than looking to other countries to do it for you.

Of course Poland and the Czech Republic remember. That's why they have been our staunchest supporters over the past decade. We should not have abandoned them so precipitously.

They have been our supporters because FDR threw them under the bus in 1943?

Again, the lesson they should have taken from that is that there are no allies, only interests.

[AZGrizFan]

Who cares if we piss of our allies, huh?

Why, that was never a concern the last 8 years, why start worrying about that now.

They're either with us, or against us, right?

My point exactly. The hypocrisy knows no bounds, huh Jon? Bush gets CRUCIFIED for pissing off our "allies" for 8 years, and the first time it's politically expedient for Obama to do so, he doesn't miss a beat.

[native]

Wouldn't that be the same as staying out of WWII and handing Europe over the the Germans? Do you favor a "fortress Europe" dominated by the Russians?

I'm sorry, excuse me...
but it sounds like you're comparing today (right now - this moment) to world war II..?

Dude.. really..? You are either seriously delusional or you're playing a funny joke..

WW II took a couple of decades to develop. It would probably be more accurate to compare today to the late twenties - but yes.

What is your major malfunction? Do you think the precipitous loss of the missile shield is funny to the Eastern Europeans who have supported the U.S.? Do you not think that the Russians are a threat to their neighbors? Do you really dismiss the lives of the Czechs and Poles so easliy?

[native]

Of course Poland and the Czech Republic remember. That's why they have been our staunchest supporters over the past decade. We should not have abandoned them so precipitously.

They have been our supporters because FDR threw them under the bus in 1943?

Again, the lesson they should have taken from that is that there are no allies, only interests.

Of course the Poles and Czechs recall being occupied by the Soviets. They supported the missile shield and other aspects of U.S. policy despite being screwed by FDR in 1943, because it was in their interest to do so.

Why do you think they supported the missile shield so strongly - because they were worried about Tehran?

Why is it in our interest to abandom them? Why is Russian appeasement in our interest? Why should the Russians feel threatened by a purely defensive system?

[D1B]

Jon, you are aware that the missle shield system was always meant to be a defense against the Iranian missile threat, yes?

Let's not inject facts into this discussion, now...we wouldn't want to be a buzz killer, would we????

Nice post Azgrizfan.

[D1B]

Why, that was never a concern the last 8 years, why start worrying about that now.

They're either with us, or against us, right?

My point exactly. The hypocrisy knows no bounds, huh Jon? Bush gets CRUCIFIED for pissing off our "allies" for 8 years, and the first time it's politically expedient for Obama to do so, he doesn't miss a beat.

Uhhhhh, did you miss the part where O is substituting a better plan.

Also, besides P and C, what other european countries are clamoring for the shield? Shit was on the 4th page of Recipies section of the paper. Like Star Wars , just another dumb conk fantasy.

[native]

Let's not inject common sense and fiscal responsibility into this.

It sounds like McSame is pissed about the decision... and the house whip Republican is saying that we've let our friends in Europe down (you know, since they've always had our back.. )

Be truthful. The Poles and Czechs are among the few who have had our back of late.

[native]

...Uhhhhh, did you miss the part where O is substituting a better plan...

It could possibly be true, but based the effectiveness of the "plans" Barry has pushed so far...

...Like Star Wars , just another dumb conk fantasy.

...a fantasy that actually worked! Bad guys gave up. Good guys won.

[D1B]

...Uhhhhh, did you miss the part where O is substituting a better plan...

It could possibly be true, but based the effectiveness of the "plans" Barry has pushed so far...

...Like Star Wars , just another dumb conk fantasy.

...a fantasy that actually worked! Bad guys gave up. Good guys won.

Jesus, you are a dumbfuck.

[CID1990]

They have been our supporters because FDR threw them under the bus in 1943?

Again, the lesson they should have taken from that is that there are no allies, only interests.

Of course the Poles and Czechs recall being occupied by the Soviets. They supported the missile shield and other aspects of U.S. policy despite being screwed by FDR in 1943, because it was in their interest to do so.

Why do you think they supported the missile shield so strongly - because they were worried about Tehran?

Why is it in our interest to abandom them? Why is Russian appeasement in our interest? Why should the Russians feel threatened by a purely defensive system?

If the reason behind the missile shield is to counter Tehran as President Bush stated time and again, then why are we debating it from the standpoint that abandoning it is tantamount to leaving our allies at the mercy of Russia? The fact is that the missile shield does not happen without Russian support or at least aquiescence. Bush knew it, and Obama knows it. This is why both Presidents went to great lengths to try to convince the Russians that the missiles were not meant to be a part of a militarized wall to their west. I am as pugilistic about Russia as any hawk, but the system's benefits do not counteract the ill will with Russia. Especially when again, we are renegotiating START this December. The benefits to Europe of a renewed treaty will be much greater than a missile shield ostensibly meant to counter Iranian missiles that will likely never be aimed at Europe.

To specifically answer your questions, we are not abandoning our allies in Eastern Europe. There will be other concessions to them.

Appeasement is not the applicable term because Russia is not a belligerent and is not threatening POL or CZ (at least not militarily...economically is another story, but you don't counter that with missiles). We are not offering to move the system in return for Russian non-aggression.

The system, no matter what we call it, is not purely defensive. A missile that can shoot down rising ballistic missiles can also clear the skies of enemy aircraft. If the Russians were putting a similar system in Cuba, rest assured that we would have the same reservations.

And we wouldn't be looking to Poland or CZ to protect us.

[Cap'n Cat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_ ... le_defense

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama on Thursday shelved a Bush-era plan for an Eastern European missile defense plan that has been a major irritant in relations with Russia. He said a redesigned defensive system would be cheaper and more effective against the threat from Iranian missiles.

"Our new missile defense architecture in Europe will provide stronger, smarter and swifter defenses of American forces and America's allies," Obama said in an announcement from the White House. "It is more comprehensive than the previous program, it deploys capabilities that are proven and cost effective, and it sustains and builds upon our commitment to protect the U.S. homeland."

The missile defense system, planned under the Bush administration, was to have been built in the Czech Republic and Poland. Obama phoned Czech Prime Minister Jan Fischer Wednesday night and Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk Thursday morning to alert them of his decision.

Dear Conk Cocksuckers,
This is the CHANGE I voted for!

[AZGrizFan]

My point exactly. The hypocrisy knows no bounds, huh Jon? Bush gets CRUCIFIED for pissing off our "allies" for 8 years, and the first time it's politically expedient for Obama to do so, he doesn't miss a beat.

Uhhhhh, did you miss the part where O is substituting a better plan.

Also, besides P and C, what other european countries are clamoring for the shield? Shit was on the 4th page of Recipies section of the paper. Like Star Wars , just another dumb conk fantasy.

"besides P and C"....I see now how Donk logic works...it's not the "pissing off allies" part that steamed you about GW, it was WHICH allies he pissed off...

[Chizzang]

Dear Conk Cocksuckers,
This is the CHANGE I voted for!

It's also very entertaining

[D1B]

Uhhhhh, did you miss the part where O is substituting a better plan.

Also, besides P and C, what other european countries are clamoring for the shield? Shit was on the 4th page of Recipies section of the paper. Like Star Wars , just another dumb conk fantasy.

"besides P and C"....I see now how Donk logic works...it's not the "pissing off allies" part that steamed you about GW, it was WHICH allies he pissed off...

The shield was not that important to Europe, especially the real players (Germany, Britain, France, Italy).

[AZGrizFan]

"besides P and C"....I see now how Donk logic works...it's not the "pissing off allies" part that steamed you about GW, it was WHICH allies he pissed off...

The shield was not that important to Europe, especially the real players (Germany, Britain, France, Italy).

Right. So, there are different LEVELS of allies....got it...

[D1B]

The shield was not that important to Europe, especially the real players (Germany, Britain, France, Italy).

Right. So, there are different LEVELS of allies....got it...

Yes.

[Col Hogan]

"besides P and C"....I see now how Donk logic works...it's not the "pissing off allies" part that steamed you about GW, it was WHICH allies he pissed off...

The shield was not that important to Europe, especially the real players (Germany, Britain, France, Italy).

Go back to the "Players Only Forum" and talk about things you know about, and leave the adults to discuss the rest of the world...

[AZGrizFan]

The shield was not that important to Europe, especially the real players (Germany, Britain, France, Italy).

Go back to the "Players Only Forum" and talk about things you know about, and leave the adults to discuss the rest of the world...

Notice that the "real players" aren't the ones who have their backs to Russia.