"Free Choice" = Jail Time

[Appaholic]

Yup, they put the wrong stamp on my Dutch friends passport... almost got him exported. US consulate in Holland also lost his passport last time he was there, ended up having to stay there for another two weeks until the situation was resolved.


We can nitpick over what you can and can't do in each respective country, the fact is that our country has freedoms that aren't available elsewhere, while those countries have freedoms that we don't have as Americans. I'm fine with that, I'm just happy I live in a country that is free.... I'd be fine in any country that allows me to live free... there will always be trade offs for your freedom no matter where you live. Whether that's not being able to deny the holocaust or have your emails read without probable cause or being held without upholding habeas corpus it really depends on how much you really want to give up.

This site puts together a list of all the countries in the world based upon the freedoms available there, if you want to read into how they calculate the data, it's on the site. Just happy to live in a nation that is a 1.0.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cf ... &year=2009

Sorry for posting the bogus health insurance chart up there, the original point was in response to Ursus for why people are willing to go through this method. Most people will only read those stats and not get in depth info about where the really came from and if they are statistically relevant... they'll just watch the Michael Moore movie and believe that what he says must be right. So you have a bunch of people who think they are informed pushing for it because they got some stats of Wikipedia. Now, I think some of those stats up there are relevant, but it's been pointed out the uninsured aspect is incorrect, our population is much more diverse which will lead to differences in the stats, etc. I'm more surprised by expenditures put towards health care by each country.

Having been privy to some of that, I can tell you that unless you are emailing a guy named Muhammed in Waziristan or Lahore, you don't have anything to worry about.

Do you know of someone who had their emails intercepted?

As for most European countries, I'll say that for the most part, you can live as unhindered there as you can here. The similarities end when you start comparing tax rates. They are absolutely confiscatory in most European countries. The ones that are not so bad are heading that way in order to contribute to the EU's social spending pot.

Very true. But ask your fellow countrymen sitting in jail for marijuana possession out of a job for being publicly disgraced for visiting a prostitute whether he thinks the European tax rate vs personal freedom is exorbitant...as you said, it depends on the freedoms one values.....

[native]

At least in Germany, the customs process works efficiently, and the officials are friendly and helpful.

I was embarrassed by the incompetent people and processes upon returning from Germany to the USA through Atlanta customs.

You weren't dealing with Customs. You were dealing with DHS and TSA, and yes, they can be somewhat "ignant".

I believe I was dealing with the Atlanta Customs personnel who check passports. Some of my experiences have been pre-9/11, before there was such a thing as TSA or DHS. My most recent experience was in 2006, so it may no longer have been Customs.

I've got friends on the Customs law enforcement side who are competent and efficient. I have also enjoyed efficient and friendly service from Customs personnel at the Canadian and Mexican borders. But I have been through Atlanta Customs more than once. My experience has been that they are lazy, disorganized, inefficient and unfriendly buffoons.

[JMU DJ]

Having been privy to some of that, I can tell you that unless you are emailing a guy named Muhammed in Waziristan or Lahore, you don't have anything to worry about.

Do you know of someone who had their emails intercepted?

As for most European countries, I'll say that for the most part, you can live as unhindered there as you can here. The similarities end when you start comparing tax rates. They are absolutely confiscatory in most European countries. The ones that are not so bad are heading that way in order to contribute to the EU's social spending pot.

Besides those who are privy, would we ever really know unless they were arrested and thrown in jail? But then again would I know that Chuck had gone missing since he wouldn't have to be told why he is being imprisoned and can't seek legal help?


I know habeas corpus has been reestablished, but what about the email checks?

I think that was what most Americans feared, the fear that if the government wanted, they could check your phone records, bank statements, emails, etc without cause (kind of like those who currently fear the government meddling with their health care). Either way you look at the Patriot Act or Health Care, it's government intrusion to some level, and people aren't going to like it... I just don't understand why those who resented the Patriot Act support Health Care or visa versa (I know that's a general statement, but that seems to be how the party lines have been drawn if I'm not mistaken). I understand how people could be upset by government intrusion into personal information and also want health care reform... but along with health care reform comes government control of your health care (does that also include medical records?). I can also understand how people want protection from possible attacks upon our country but don't want the government to tell them which doctor to see... though, your insurance company pretty much dictates that too I believe.

[CID1990]

You weren't dealing with Customs. You were dealing with DHS and TSA, and yes, they can be somewhat "ignant".

I believe I was dealing with the Atlanta Customs personnel who check passports. Some of my experiences have been pre-9/11, before there was such a thing as TSA or DHS. My most recent experience was in 2006, so it may no longer have been Customs.

I've got friends on the Customs law enforcement side who are competent and efficient. I have also enjoyed efficient and friendly service from Customs personnel at the Canadian and Mexican borders. But I have been through Atlanta Customs more than once. My experience has been that they are lazy, disorganized, inefficient and unfriendly buffoons.

All points of entry are controlled by DHS; all passport checks are done by DHS officers. It changed after 9-11.

[CID1990]

Having been privy to some of that, I can tell you that unless you are emailing a guy named Muhammed in Waziristan or Lahore, you don't have anything to worry about.

Do you know of someone who had their emails intercepted?

As for most European countries, I'll say that for the most part, you can live as unhindered there as you can here. The similarities end when you start comparing tax rates. They are absolutely confiscatory in most European countries. The ones that are not so bad are heading that way in order to contribute to the EU's social spending pot.

Besides those who are privy, would we ever really know unless they were arrested and thrown in jail? But then again would I know that Chuck had gone missing since he wouldn't have to be told why he is being imprisoned and can't seek legal help?


I know habeas corpus has been reestablished, but what about the email checks?

I think that was what most Americans feared, the fear that if the government wanted, they could check your phone records, bank statements, emails, etc without cause (kind of like those who currently fear the government meddling with their health care). Either way you look at the Patriot Act or Health Care, it's government intrusion to some level, and people aren't going to like it... I just don't understand why those who resented the Patriot Act support Health Care or visa versa (I know that's a general statement, but that seems to be how the party lines have been drawn if I'm not mistaken). I understand how people could be upset by government intrusion into personal information and also want health care reform... but along with health care reform comes government control of your health care (does that also include medical records?). I can also understand how people want protection from possible attacks upon our country but don't want the government to tell them which doctor to see... though, your insurance company pretty much dictates that too I believe.

I suppose every person who was ever arrested as a result of evidence gleaned from their emails to Mohammed just disappeared, never to be seen again. Perhaps one day one of these poor souls will surface with a tale of dungeons, waterboarding (oh my), and Korans in the toilet.

I agree that insurance companies have traditionally limited choice, but then one of the big customer service pushes of the last few years in to expand physician lists. I personally think the health care providers have made recent efforts to be competitive. I am on the Foreign Service plan, which is a cash for service plan. The physician list is huge. I think my wife found the only OB-GYN in all of Washington DC who does not take that insurance. Guess what? We decided to go out of network because the plan does cover the hospital, which is the lion's share of the cost. In other words, my insurance plan has not limited my choice at all. I chose to pay a few extra bucks.

Prior to that, I was on the City of Charleston's plan with Cigna. we were with Cigna because we as employees had had problems with our previous carrier. Enough employees bitched, and Charleston switched carriers. I think having responsive employers does more to create competition than anything government could ever do.