Since gun rights came up...

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Since gun rights came up...

Post by slycat »

Is this man in the right? Two guys rob the house next door where no one was home. The neighbor called the police then shot he two men. Is this self defense?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_s ... ontroversy
Joe Horn, 61, spotted two burglars breaking into his next-door neighbor's home in Pasadena, Texas. He called 911 to call police to the scene. While on the phone with emergency dispatch, Horn stated that he had the right to use deadly force to defend property, referencing a law (Texas Penal Code § 9.41., § 9.42., and § 9.43.) which justified the use of deadly force to protect property. He stated that he was going to go outside and confront the burglars and shoot. As the burglars were exiting his neighbor's home, and reportedly approaching Horn's home, Horn exited his home with his shotgun, while the 911 Operator tried to dissuade him from that action. On the 911 tape, he is heard confronting the suspects, saying, "Move, you're dead",[3] immediately followed by the sound of a shotgun blast, followed by two more.[4] Following the shootings Mr. Horn told the 911 operator, "They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!" [5]

Police initially identified the dead men in Horn's yard as 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston of Afro Latino descent. However, DeJesus was actually an alias of Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.[3] They were carrying a sack with more than $2,000 cash and jewelry taken from the home. Both were convicted criminals from Colombia who had entered the country illegally, and were members of an organized burglary ring in Houston.[1] Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz while Torres had three identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic, and had been previously sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.[6]

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back. Pasadena police confirmed that the two men were shot after they ventured into his front yard. The detective did not arrest Horn.
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Re: Since guns right came up...

Post by Col Hogan »

NO!!!
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sounds like this guy just got done watching Grand Torino. :rofl:
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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And yet he was let go free of charge or never charged and called a hero by some.

He put himself into the situation so its not self defense. Plus he shot them in the back.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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Why if there was a detective on scene before the shootings occured, did he not do anything before the shooting?
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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JMU DJ wrote:Why if there was a detective on scene before the shootings occured, did he not do anything before the shooting?
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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JMU DJ wrote:Why if there was a detective on scene before the shootings occured, did he not do anything before the shooting?
He came on scene after the fact. Mr. Horn was on the phone with the cops and said he'd shoot them before they got away.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

Post by bobbythekidd »

Something good did come from it. That neighborhood won't ever be targeted by the crime ring in Houston again.
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Re: Since guns right came up...

Post by BlueHen86 »

Col Hogan wrote:NO!!!
Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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slycat wrote: He came on scene after the fact. Mr. Horn was on the phone with the cops and said he'd shoot them before they got away.
A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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bobbythekidd wrote:Something good did come from it. That neighborhood won't ever be targeted by the crime ring in Houston again.
I'm gonna guess that the older gentleman is dead within 90 days. From a gunshot wound. In the back....or right behind the ear. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: Since guns right came up...

Post by native »

Col Hogan wrote:NO!!!
YES!!!
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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JMU DJ wrote:
slycat wrote: He came on scene after the fact. Mr. Horn was on the phone with the cops and said he'd shoot them before they got away.
A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.
Nevermind. That makes it even worse.
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native wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:NO!!!
YES!!!
What does the bible say about this... I wonder..?

:coffee:
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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It happened in Nov 07. Everything I have found makes me think he is still alive.
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Re: Since guns right came up...

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BlueHen86 wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:NO!!!
Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.
This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.
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Re: Since guns right came up...

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native wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.
This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

But if I shot a hedge fund manager after he skimmed millions off the top... would I go to jail..?
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Re: Since guns right came up...

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Cleets Part 2 wrote:
native wrote:
This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

But if I shot a hedge fund manager after he skimmed millions off the top... would I go to jail..?
Not if I were on the jury.
Last edited by native on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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bobbythekidd wrote:It happened in Nov 07. Everything I have found makes me think he is still alive.
It was a big deal when I moved here to Houston in January 08.
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native wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.
This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.
But its more complicated then that. Did he have to shoot to kill? No.

Vigilante laws are not in place.
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slycat wrote:
native wrote:
This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.
But its more complicated then that. Did he have to shoot to kill? No.

Vigilante laws are not in place.
vigilantism is inexcusable... this guy is a murderer, plain and simple. (we've had this discussion about this case before)

does he have the right to have the gun and defend his home? yep. does he have the right to shoot someone if he legitimately fears for his life? indeed. does he have the right to chase a fleeing burglar down the street and plug them? no way in hell. that's not self-defense anymore... that's murder.

to my thinking there is a clear line between "justifiable homicide" and "murder" and this guy went leaping over it. the problem is the mob mentality that treats this like a burglar suing for breaking his leg falling down the stairs... which this isn't in any way. but it speaks to a lot of vengeance minded people rather than justice minded... it isn't about righting the wrong, but rather punishing the "other" because "criminals" are the ultimate out-group, and it's virtually impossible for a sane person to stand up in front of a lynch mob and try to talk sense in to them. (case in point would be the increasingly high conviction rates in criminal cases... "well they charged him, must be guilty" mentality)
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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bobbythekidd wrote:It happened in Nov 07. Everything I have found makes me think he is still alive.
Interesting. Gangs just ain't what they used to be, I guess... :lol: :lol:
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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Murderer plain and simple. There is no gray in this case. His life was not in jeopardy and they were running away. That what the police is for. Dumbass to the 50,000,000th power. He deserves to rot into the core of hell. :coffee:
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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wkuhillhound wrote:Murderer plain and simple. There is no gray in this case. His life was not in jeopardy and they were running away. That what the police is for. Dumbass to the 50,000,000th power. He deserves to rot into the core of hell. :coffee:
and yet he was cleared of any wrong doing.
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Re: Since gun rights came up...

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bobbythekidd wrote:
wkuhillhound wrote:Murderer plain and simple. There is no gray in this case. His life was not in jeopardy and they were running away. That what the police is for. Dumbass to the 50,000,000th power. He deserves to rot into the core of hell. :coffee:
and yet he was cleared of any wrong doing.
Miguel and Diego invaded his property like those savage, wart riddled, Lincoln loving beast did in the 1860's... he had to defend himself :ugeek:
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