Since gun rights came up...

[wkuhillhound]

Murderer plain and simple. There is no gray in this case. His life was not in jeopardy and they were running away. That what the police is for. Dumbass to the 50,000,000th power. He deserves to rot into the core of hell.

and yet he was cleared of any wrong doing.

It's the wrong decision in my opinion. Hope he doesn't die soon. He may prefer to be alive rather than dead when the ultimate decision comes.

[bobbythekidd]

It happened in Nov 07. Everything I have found makes me think he is still alive.

Interesting. Gangs just ain't what they used to be, I guess...

Yeah, Houston REALLY went down the crapper after Katrina.

[native]

But its more complicated then that. Did he have to shoot to kill? No.

Vigilante laws are not in place.

vigilantism is inexcusable... this guy is a murderer, plain and simple. (we've had this discussion about this case before)

does he have the right to have the gun and defend his home? yep. does he have the right to shoot someone if he legitimately fears for his life? indeed. does he have the right to chase a fleeing burglar down the street and plug them? no way in hell. that's not self-defense anymore... that's murder.

to my thinking there is a clear line between "justifiable homicide" and "murder" and this guy went leaping over it. the problem is the mob mentality that treats this like a burglar suing for breaking his leg falling down the stairs... which this isn't in any way. but it speaks to a lot of vengeance minded people rather than justice minded... it isn't about righting the wrong, but rather punishing the "other" because "criminals" are the ultimate out-group, and it's virtually impossible for a sane person to stand up in front of a lynch mob and try to talk sense in to them. (case in point would be the increasingly high conviction rates in criminal cases... "well they charged him, must be guilty" mentality)

You make some good points, TTBF, but your post contains factual innaccuracies which undermine your desired - and flawed - conclusions.

Joe Horn was not chasing the criminals down the street. He was protecting himself and his own property when the criminals came to his house. He did not "leap" over the line between murder and justifiable homocide. Rather he went right up to the line without crossing it.

From the Wiki reference: "...Pasadena police confirmed that the two men were shot after they ventured into his front yard..."

I appreciate your heartfelt plea for justice, but this case, justice was clearly served.

It is ironic and tragic that, in our absurdly litigous society, the criminals might have been awarded damages had Horn merely wounded them.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

not so...

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back.

they ran... he shot them... they hadn't entered his house, they entered his yard, there was no threat to him... he held them at gun point, which he was right to do... but when they fled... shooting them in the back... that's murder - he was no longer defending himself by shooting a fleeing suspect in the back...

[AZGrizFan]

not so...

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back.

they ran... he shot them... they hadn't entered his house, they entered his yard, there was no threat to him... he held them at gun point, which he was right to do... but when they fled... shooting them in the back... that's murder - he was no longer defending himself by shooting a fleeing suspect in the back...

No, but he was saving the state of Texas about $5,000,000.

[native]

not so...

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back.

they ran... he shot them... they hadn't entered his house, they entered his yard, there was no threat to him... he held them at gun point, which he was right to do... but when they fled... shooting them in the back... that's murder - he was no longer defending himself by shooting a fleeing suspect in the back...

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

[Cap'n Cat]

YES!!!

What does the bible say about this... I wonder..?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

not so...



they ran... he shot them... they hadn't entered his house, they entered his yard, there was no threat to him... he held them at gun point, which he was right to do... but when they fled... shooting them in the back... that's murder - he was no longer defending himself by shooting a fleeing suspect in the back...

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

maybe... but it's also a world where justice has been usurped by a far more dangerous and nebulous concept of, for lack of a better term "rough justice" or "defensible vigilantism"... the problem with it is... where was the due process? and I understand the frustration with "due process" however... a very fundamental concept in our republic is the idea that no man ought to be judge, jury and executioner... this man and his actions fly in the face of "the rule of law" every bit as much as these two burglars did, and perhaps more.

[native]

YES!!!

What does the bible say about this... I wonder..?

...
6. ...shall not murder...
...
8. ... shall not steal...
...
10. ...shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor...

[native]

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

maybe... but it's also a world where justice has been usurped by a far more dangerous and nebulous concept of, for lack of a better term "rough justice" or "defensible vigilantism"... the problem with it is... where was the due process? and I understand the frustration with "due process" however... a very fundamental concept in our republic is the idea that no man ought to be judge, jury and executioner... this man and his actions fly in the face of "the rule of law" every bit as much as these two burglars did, and perhaps more.

This case did not occur in a vacum. There is no such thing as "due process" in the moment of the crime, and there are plenty of circumstances to justify the outcome. You misapply the Constitution in your analysis and parahrase it quite inaccurately. Both the rule and spirit of the law were served.

Pick another case. There are plenty to choose from. I understand and agree with your aspirations but not your analysis of this case.

[JMU DJ]

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

Thanks to people who live in your world, if my children stumble onto your lawn I won't have to worry about their college tuition anymore.


... did you listen to the tape? He didn't have to go outside and confront them, he could have just sat in his house, police were there and would have apprehended the suspects... he said "I'm not going to let them get away with this," "I'm going to kill them" prior to going outside and confronting them... now, if he hadn't of confronted him, I don't think these two dudes would have been coming on his property. They did though and he shot them. Point being, he went out there with an intention of shooting them.

[native]

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

Thanks to people who live in your world, if my children stumble onto your lawn I won't have to worry about their college tuition anymore.

... did you listen to the tape? He didn't have to go outside and confront them, he could have just sat in his house, police were there and would have apprehended the suspects... he said "I'm not going to let them get away with this," "I'm going to kill them" prior to going outside and confronting them... now, if he hadn't of confronted him, I don't think these two dudes would have been coming on his property. They did though and he shot them. Point being, he went out there with an intention of shooting them.

Bullsh!t!! Nobody in my world is going to shoot your children. Hello!??? No children stumbled innocently on to Joe Horn's lawn! They were clearly predatory criminals!

You and I may not have made the same choices as Joe Horn, but you and I don't live in a gang-infested cesspool of a neighborhood where the police are ineffective in maintaining the rule of law. It is tragically absurd for people for whom the system works and with the resources to protect themselves in a more civilized manner to criticize the actions of poor people for whom the system does not work.

Joe Horn did not go to those thugs' homes and attack them. He did not run over to his neighbors' home to attack them. He immediately did the right thing, called 911 and waited. He was the next victim on their hit list, but when the criminals struck his home he refused to be a victim. How many more times would he and his neighbors have been victimized if he did not stand up for his rights? Joe Horn was within his rights and did a great service to his community.

Again - pick another case!

[JMU DJ]

Bullsh!t!! Nobody in my world is going to shoot your children. Hello!??? No children stumbled innocently on to Joe Horn's lawn! They were clearly predatory criminals!

You and I may not have made the same choices as Joe Horn, but you and I don't live in a gang-infested cesspool of a neighborhood where the police are ineffective in maintaining the rule of law. It is tragically absurd for people for whom the system works and with the resources to protect themselves in a more civilized manner to criticize the actions of poor people for whom the system does not work.

Joe Horn did not go to those thugs' homes and attack them. He did not run over to his neighbors' home to attack them. He immediately did the right thing, called 911 and waited. He was the next victim on their hit list, but when the criminals struck his home he refused to be a victim. How many more times would he and his neighbors have been victimized if he did not stand up for his rights? Joe Horn was within his rights and did a great service to his community.

Again - pick another case!

Sorry, I was confusing your peoples world with these peoples world... my bad Native, I won't make that mistake again.




Joe Horn went out to confront them prior to them coming on his property... if you listen to the tape he says: They're coming out the house now, I'm going to go outside.

Didn't need to go outside if they weren't coming on his property. Where did you read he was the next target? Also, that image in the video... it's his neighborhood... looks like a real that real gang infested cesspool you speak of.

[native]

Bullsh!t!! Nobody in my world is going to shoot your children. Hello!??? No children stumbled innocently on to Joe Horn's lawn! They were clearly predatory criminals!

You and I may not have made the same choices as Joe Horn, but you and I don't live in a gang-infested cesspool of a neighborhood where the police are ineffective in maintaining the rule of law. It is tragically absurd for people for whom the system works and with the resources to protect themselves in a more civilized manner to criticize the actions of poor people for whom the system does not work.

Joe Horn did not go to those thugs' homes and attack them. He did not run over to his neighbors' home to attack them. He immediately did the right thing, called 911 and waited. He was the next victim on their hit list, but when the criminals struck his home he refused to be a victim. How many more times would he and his neighbors have been victimized if he did not stand up for his rights? Joe Horn was within his rights and did a great service to his community.

Again - pick another case!

Sorry, I was confusing your peoples world with these peoples world... my bad Native, I won't make that mistake again.




Joe Horn went out to confront them prior to them coming on his property... if you listen to the tape he says: They're coming out the house now, I'm going to go outside.

Didn't need to go outside if they weren't coming on his property. Where did you read he was the next target? Also, that image in the video... it's his neighborhood... looks like a real that real gang infested cesspool you speak of.

Nobody's attacking your children, douchebag.

[JMU DJ]

Nobody's attacking your children, douchebag.

I don't have kids, just being a bringing in a douchebag hypothetical due to the above people, who would attack my hypothetical unborn kids

[native]

This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

But its more complicated then that. Did he have to shoot to kill? No.

Vigilante laws are not in place.

In today's ridiculously litigous environment, he probably did have to shoot to kill.

[native]

...Joe Horn went out to confront them prior to them coming on his property... if you listen to the tape he says: They're coming out the house now, I'm going to go outside.

Didn't need to go outside if they weren't coming on his property. Where did you read he was the next target? Also, that image in the video... it's his neighborhood... looks like a real that real gang infested cesspool you speak of.

1. The criminals were clearly on Joe Horn's property.

2. If the picture is accurate, thank you for correcting my misperception about Joe Horn's neighborhood.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

...Joe Horn went out to confront them prior to them coming on his property... if you listen to the tape he says: They're coming out the house now, I'm going to go outside.

Didn't need to go outside if they weren't coming on his property. Where did you read he was the next target? Also, that image in the video... it's his neighborhood... looks like a real that real gang infested cesspool you speak of.

1. The criminals were clearly on Joe Horn's property.

2. If the picture is accurate, thank you for correcting my misperception about Joe Horn's neighborhood.

1. he shot them in the BACK while they were running AWAY... that's flat murder.

2. those people in the picture are the sleazy fvcks who (iirc) gunned down a kid playing on a levee near their house for "trespassing"

[native]

1. The criminals were clearly on Joe Horn's property.

2. If the picture is accurate, thank you for correcting my misperception about Joe Horn's neighborhood.

1. he shot them in the BACK while they were running AWAY... that's flat murder.

2. those people in the picture are the sleazy fvcks who (iirc) gunned down a kid playing on a levee near their house for "trespassing"

Points well taken, TTBF. I still support Joe Horn, but I am glad that someone finally brought up a different, more defensible case. I hope the "sleazy fvcks" were imprisoned or executed, as appropriate.

[Col Hogan]

Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.

This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

You have gotta be freakin' kidding...property is NEVER more valuable than human life...NEVER!!!

Even when scum like those two are involved...

[TwinTownBisonFan]

This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

You have gotta be freakin' kidding...property is NEVER more valuable than human life...NEVER!!!

Even when scum like those two are involved...

a rare moment of agreement between Hoagie and TTBF...

[Col Hogan]

You have gotta be freakin' kidding...property is NEVER more valuable than human life...NEVER!!!

Even when scum like those two are involved...

a rare moment of agreement between Hoagie and TTBF...

So you'll also join me in opposing abortion...

[TwinTownBisonFan]

a rare moment of agreement between Hoagie and TTBF...

So you'll also join me in opposing abortion...

i personally am - but i dont believe public policy should reflect my view on the matter, just because I think that way doesn't mean the laws should change to reflect that... (i also oppose handguns... but the Second Amendment trumps my opinion...)

[Cleets Part 2]

Points well taken, TTBF. I still support Joe Horn, but I am glad that someone finally brought up a different, more defensible case. I hope the "sleazy fvcks" were imprisoned or executed, as appropriate.

Unless (in your world) they can show that the kid was a danger to them... with no witnesses that ought to be easy to do...

and they then should walk free...

Your world is a freaky dangerous place for everybody

[JMU DJ]

1. The criminals were clearly on Joe Horn's property.

2. If the picture is accurate, thank you for correcting my misperception about Joe Horn's neighborhood.

1. he shot them in the BACK while they were running AWAY... that's flat murder.

2. those people in the picture are the sleazy fvcks who (iirc) gunned down a kid playing on a levee near their house for "trespassing"

The picture I posted was of another case with those two sleezeballs... the picture in question is the one that is of Joe Horn's neighborhood in the "live" view in Sly's original post with the youtube video. That's Joe Horns "hood"... I couldn't find the aerial shot I saw earlier today, but it's a nice little subdivision with a homeowners association that has a code of upkeep. Jon knows all about the homeowners association.
http://www.villagegroveeast.org/index.html

The Transcript... looks like Joe Horn waited until they trespassed before going after them . I'm gonna go get em, you hear the shotgun clickin'

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."