Since gun rights came up...

[Grizo406]

The Grizo likey hand guns, and a few assault weapons!

[travelinman67]

YES!!!

What does the bible say about this... I wonder..?

Exodus...

“If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

[Col Hogan]

So you'll also join me in opposing abortion...

i personally am - but i dont believe public policy should reflect my view on the matter, just because I think that way doesn't mean the laws should change to reflect that... (i also oppose handguns... but the Second Amendment trumps my opinion...)

Now there's a cop out if I've ever seen one....Public Policy is going to reflect someone's view...but to keep your "Lib cred" you pass the buck..."I oppose it, but ..."

Do you feel the same way about Iraq..."I oppose the war, but I don't believe public policy on the war should reflect my view"...

Or Health care...."I support the public option on health care...but I don't believe public policy on health care should reflect my view"...

Either you support life...or you don't....

[dbackjon]

What does the bible say about this... I wonder..?

Exodus...

“If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

Of course, they weren't IN THE HOUSE...

[travelinman67]

Exodus...

Of course, they weren't IN THE HOUSE...

...

No...they were caught in the act of breaking into a house.

Point is?

[native]

i personally am - but i dont believe public policy should reflect my view on the matter, just because I think that way doesn't mean the laws should change to reflect that... (i also oppose handguns... but the Second Amendment trumps my opinion...)

Now there's a cop out if I've ever seen one....Public Policy is going to reflect someone's view...but to keep your "Lib cred" you pass the buck..."I oppose it, but ..."

Do you feel the same way about Iraq..."I oppose the war, but I don't believe public policy on the war should reflect my view"...

Or Health care...."I support the public option on health care...but I don't believe public policy on health care should reflect my view"...

Either you support life...or you don't....

I support protecting innocent life, but I do not support protecting scumbag criminals.

[travelinman67]

There are plenty of cases of veangeful vigilantism, wrongful convictions, and injustice. This is NOT one of those cases.

My world is a safer place for innocent children, law abiding citizens, and, ultimately, liberty, than is yours.

maybe... but it's also a world where justice has been usurped by a far more dangerous and nebulous concept of, for lack of a better term "rough justice" or "defensible vigilantism"... the problem with it is... where was the due process? and I understand the frustration with "due process" however... a very fundamental concept in our republic is the idea that no man ought to be judge, jury and executioner... this man and his actions fly in the face of "the rule of law" every bit as much as these two burglars did, and perhaps more.

TTBF, it's a fact that a person who is lawfully present (on their own property, in a public place, etc...), who witnesses a felony, can arrest the offender and has no legal obligation to retreat from their intended action when faced with resistance.

Resistance includes the perpetrator's attempt to flee.

That is why Joe Horn was never convicted for shooting the two burglars.

Whether Horn's actions were "reasonable" is for a civil jury to decide: Criminally, Horn acted within the law.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

i personally am - but i dont believe public policy should reflect my view on the matter, just because I think that way doesn't mean the laws should change to reflect that... (i also oppose handguns... but the Second Amendment trumps my opinion...)

Now there's a cop out if I've ever seen one....Public Policy is going to reflect someone's view...but to keep your "Lib cred" you pass the buck..."I oppose it, but ..."

Do you feel the same way about Iraq..."I oppose the war, but I don't believe public policy on the war should reflect my view"...

Or Health care...."I support the public option on health care...but I don't believe public policy on health care should reflect my view"...

Either you support life...or you don't....

not at all - the difference is a key one - i oppose the idea of abortion, but that said... nothing you do, no law you pass is going to actually stop it... so, i believe you need to keep it legal, medically safe, and hopefully rare... i advocate for things like improved access to adoption resources, give up laws that allow a new mother to leave a child at a hospital no questions asked, and access to family planning services and education that reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies...

fact is - you can make it illegal, but that won't stop it... just send it underground and more dangerous. i don't like it, but i'm living in reality on the matter

[JMU DJ]

TTBF, it's a fact that a person who is lawfully present (on their own property, in a public place, etc...), who witnesses a felony, can arrest the offender and has no legal obligation to retreat from their intended action when faced with resistance.

Resistance includes the perpetrator's attempt to flee.

That is why Joe Horn was never convicted for shooting the two burglars.

Whether Horn's actions were "reasonable" is for a civil jury to decide: Criminally, Horn acted within the law.

In certain states the use of force, even lethal force is permitted under the law. Constitutionally, this guy is protected under the 9th and 2nd amendments. So really it's up to the courts interpretation of the law, and they let this guy off. I don't think this topic really has anything to do with gun rights, the guy was within his legal rights. I don't like what this guy did, the police dispatch told him to stand down and he disobeyed... in certain states, this is a violation of citizens arrest, again up to the interpretation of the court. In my mind, the thieves were in the wrong, Joe Horn didn't need to use lethal force to 'detain' the suspects, and the detective who sat in his car and watched the scene escalate while doing nothing is a supreme douche.

[Cleets Part 2]

i personally am - but i dont believe public policy should reflect my view on the matter, just because I think that way doesn't mean the laws should change to reflect that... (i also oppose handguns... but the Second Amendment trumps my opinion...)

Now there's a cop out if I've ever seen one....Public Policy is going to reflect someone's view...but to keep your "Lib cred" you pass the buck..."I oppose it, but ..."

Do you feel the same way about Iraq..."I oppose the war, but I don't believe public policy on the war should reflect my view"...

Or Health care...."I support the public option on health care...but I don't believe public policy on health care should reflect my view"...

Either you support life...or you don't....

Apparently T-man and native do not support life and for a couple of self righteous bible thumpers thats a fairly spectacular discovery...

[Col Hogan]

Now there's a cop out if I've ever seen one....Public Policy is going to reflect someone's view...but to keep your "Lib cred" you pass the buck..."I oppose it, but ..."

Do you feel the same way about Iraq..."I oppose the war, but I don't believe public policy on the war should reflect my view"...

Or Health care...."I support the public option on health care...but I don't believe public policy on health care should reflect my view"...

Either you support life...or you don't....

Apparently T-man and native do not support life and for a couple of self righteous bible thumpers thats a fairly spectacular discovery...

Which is why the pro-life movement will remain ineffective...because there are conservatives who rail against libs "making choices about who lives" then turn around and do the same thing...they make a decision that someone is a "scumbag" and their life is no longer valuable...

[native]

Apparently T-man and native do not support life and for a couple of self righteous bible thumpers thats a fairly spectacular discovery...

Which is why the pro-life movement will remain ineffective...because there are conservatives who rail against libs "making choices about who lives" then turn around and do the same thing...they make a decision that someone is a "scumbag" and their life is no longer valuable...

Innocence vs guilt, Colonel.

[Col Hogan]

Which is why the pro-life movement will remain ineffective...because there are conservatives who rail against libs "making choices about who lives" then turn around and do the same thing...they make a decision that someone is a "scumbag" and their life is no longer valuable...

Innocence vs guilt, Colonel.

So, now we accept individual citizens being judge, jury and executioner...because I can't find what the two men that Horn murdered were guilty of...

You see, the Constitution says a man is innocent UNTIL FOUND GUILTY by a jury...

[native]

Innocence vs guilt, Colonel.

So, now we accept individual citizens being judge, jury and executioner...because I can't find what the two men that Horn murdered were guilty of...

You see, the Constitution says a man is innocent UNTIL FOUND GUILTY by a jury...

Blah, blah, blah... have you lost your mind? Have you spent your entire life in the rear with the gear?!???

You and I had rules of engagement in the military, Colonel, just as all of us as civilians have laws that amount to the same thing in every state, all of which fall under the authority of the Constitution. I am not talking about paper cuts at the office, either.

Joe Horn was operating (barely, perhaps) within the rules of engagement.

Your shallow Bible argument is meaningless, Cleets, because it would appear you have not put any effort into understanding what the Bible says and means. Christians and Jews have rules of engagement as well.

[Col Hogan]

So, now we accept individual citizens being judge, jury and executioner...because I can't find what the two men that Horn murdered were guilty of...

You see, the Constitution says a man is innocent UNTIL FOUND GUILTY by a jury...

Blah, blah, blah... have you lost your mind? Have you spent your entire life in the rear with the gear?!???

You and I had rules of engagement in the military, Colonel, just as all of us as civilians have laws that amount to the same thing in every state, all of which fall under the authority of the Constitution. I am not talking about paper cuts at the office, either.

Joe Horn was operating (barely, perhaps) within the rules of engagement.

Your shallow Bible argument is meaningless, Cleets, because it would appear you have not put any effort into understanding what the Bible says and means. Christians and Jews have rules of engagement as well.

We'll just disagree that he was operating within the rules...

And trying to compare ROEs from the field and the civilian arena is nothing but rationalizing an immoral action by Horn that you feel needs to be supported...that don't fly here...

[native]

Blah, blah, blah... have you lost your mind? Have you spent your entire life in the rear with the gear?!???

You and I had rules of engagement in the military, Colonel, just as all of us as civilians have laws that amount to the same thing in every state, all of which fall under the authority of the Constitution. I am not talking about paper cuts at the office, either.

Joe Horn was operating (barely, perhaps) within the rules of engagement.

Your shallow Bible argument is meaningless, Cleets, because it would appear you have not put any effort into understanding what the Bible says and means. Christians and Jews have rules of engagement as well.

We'll just disagree that he was operating within the rules...

And trying to compare ROEs from the field and the civilian arena is nothing but rationalizing an immoral action by Horn that you feel needs to be supported...that don't fly here...

Bullshit. The conceptual comparison is valid. We have been discussing the details and circumstances of the Joe Horn case this entire thread.

For example, Horn winesses criminals robbing is neighbor's house. He calls 911. The criminals cross over onto Horn's property. These criteria are very comparable to rules of engagement.

So if you witnessed a kidnapping or a child rape you would simply call 911 and let law enforcement do their thing without interfering for fear of being "judge and jury?!??"

I love you, man, so instead of saying what I thought, I am going to say, "OIUHIUSCHOI^*&W^(&ToiuT(86r865R&GWg!"

[Col Hogan]

We'll just disagree that he was operating within the rules...

And trying to compare ROEs from the field and the civilian arena is nothing but rationalizing an immoral action by Horn that you feel needs to be supported...that don't fly here...

Bullshit. The conceptual comparison is valid. We have been discussing the details and circumstances of the Joe Horn case this entire thread.

For example, Horn winesses criminals robbing is neighbor's house. He calls 911. The criminals cross over onto Horn's property. These criteria are very comparable to rules of engagement.

So if you witnessed a kidnapping or a child rape you would simply call 911 and let law enforcement do their thing without interfering for fear of being "judge and jury?!??"

I love you, man, so instead of saying what I thought, I am going to say, "OIUHIUSCHOI^*&W^(&ToiuT(86r865R&GWg!"

Nice try again to rationalize...the kidnapping or child rape example involves someones life endangered...I'll never speak out against action in that circumstance...

Stealing "stuff" endangered no life...Horn was not in danger...the police dispatcher tried to get him to stay since officers were either there or very close...

Ooooooo, they crossed into his property...

Try again, my friend...

[native]

Bullshit. The conceptual comparison is valid. We have been discussing the details and circumstances of the Joe Horn case this entire thread.

For example, Horn winesses criminals robbing is neighbor's house. He calls 911. The criminals cross over onto Horn's property. These criteria are very comparable to rules of engagement.

So if you witnessed a kidnapping or a child rape you would simply call 911 and let law enforcement do their thing without interfering for fear of being "judge and jury?!??"

I love you, man, so instead of saying what I thought, I am going to say, "OIUHIUSCHOI^*&W^(&ToiuT(86r865R&GWg!"

Nice try again to rationalize...the kidnapping or child rape example involves someones life endangered...I'll never speak out against action in that circumstance...

Stealing "stuff" endangered no life...Horn was not in danger...the police dispatcher tried to get him to stay since officers were either there or very close...

Ooooooo, they crossed into his property...

Try again, my friend...

The Consitution was written giving property rights an even footing with the bill of rights, and was enforcerd and interpreted that way for nearly 200 years, until a footnote little thing known as Carolene Products case started us down the slippery slope about 50 years ago.

Thank GOD for Texas!

[houndawg]

We'll just disagree that he was operating within the rules...

And trying to compare ROEs from the field and the civilian arena is nothing but rationalizing an immoral action by Horn that you feel needs to be supported...that don't fly here...

Bullshit. The conceptual comparison is valid. We have been discussing the details and circumstances of the Joe Horn case this entire thread.

For example, Horn winesses criminals robbing is neighbor's house. He calls 911. The criminals cross over onto Horn's property. These criteria are very comparable to rules of engagement.

So if you witnessed a kidnapping or a child rape you would simply call 911 and let law enforcement do their thing without interfering for fear of being "judge and jury?!??"

I love you, man, so instead of saying what I thought, I am going to say, "OIUHIUSCHOI^*&W^(&ToiuT(86r865R&GWg!"

Apples and oranges. Horn's life wasn't in danger, he didn't have to shoot to kill. He could have winged them or shot a leg out from under them and then beat their asses until the cops got there. Horn is no better than the scumbags he executed in cold blood.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Horn did the right thing and more people should follow his lead.

Get a few thousand people getting rid of problem criminals instead of letting the cops get a hold of them and create a tax burden, sounds like good business to me.

Plus it would drastically reduce this sh*t from happening in neighborhoods as much as it does.



One last thing, if you pull a gun, you use it and kill the SOB.

You dont just use it as a prop.

[houndawg]

Horn did the right thing and more people should follow his lead.

Get a few thousand people getting rid of problem criminals instead of letting the cops get a hold of them and create a tax burden, sounds like good business to me.

Plus it would drastically reduce this sh*t from happening in neighborhoods as much as it does.



One last thing, if you pull a gun, you use it and kill the SOB.

You dont just use it as a prop.

Yeah, tell us all about guns, tough guy.

[BlueHen86]

Agreed. It's murder. It's never good to trade lives for property. That said - I have no sympathy for the deceased, they asked for trouble and they found it.

This is a very short sighted point of view. By downplaying private property rights, we encourage crime and celebrate criminals over law-abiding citizens. By restoring property rights, we would have a safer society with fewer victims of crime and fewer murders.

So you believe that thieves should get the death penalty if caught and convicted?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Horn did the right thing and more people should follow his lead.

Get a few thousand people getting rid of problem criminals instead of letting the cops get a hold of them and create a tax burden, sounds like good business to me.

Plus it would drastically reduce this sh*t from happening in neighborhoods as much as it does.



One last thing, if you pull a gun, you use it and kill the SOB.

You dont just use it as a prop.

Yeah, tell us all about guns, tough guy.

What do you want to know?

I know this list will be a very long one , but I will try and help you out as much as I can.

[houndawg]

Yeah, tell us all about guns, tough guy.

What do you want to know?

How about your qualification score with the M-16?

[bobbythekidd]

What do you want to know?

How about your qualification score with the M-16?

Wanna know mine? I'm proud of it