Catholics aint fucking around....

[kalm]

Classic Joltin Joe! Every thread, no matter the subject, ends with the above.

Jeff, try to understand this. If you want to be an atheist and still adhere to Judeo-Christian ethics, fine.

But history has proven, beyond a doubt, that there is no greater enemy to man than official atheism as a state position. The number of dead at the hands of state atheism is 100 million in the past century. It is the single greatest atrocity ever inflicted on mankind.

You should be grateful you live in a country founded on the natural law precept set forth in my signature, and the on-going recognition of an objective truth imposed by a creator. You should be grateful for the faithful who still understand the connection between the fact of God and the fact of objective truth.

Take away God, you take away objective truth. Take away objective truth, you are left with relativism, and no basis for believing that there is an OBJECTIVE right or wrong. And when that happens, the worst atrocities are possible.

I thought deists like Jefferson were more products of the enlightenment than the church?

[D1B]

Classic Joltin Joe! Every thread, no matter the subject, ends with the above.

Jeff, try to understand this. If you want to be an atheist and still adhere to Judeo-Christian ethics, fine.

But history has proven, beyond a doubt, that there is no greater enemy to man than official atheism as a state position. The number of dead at the hands of state atheism is 100 million in the past century. It is the single greatest atrocity ever inflicted on mankind.

You should be grateful you live in a country founded on the natural law precept set forth in my signature, and the on-going recognition of an objective truth imposed by a creator. You should be grateful for the faithful who still understand the connection between the fact of God and the fact of objective truth.

Take away God, you take away objective truth. Take away objective truth, you are left with relativism, and no basis for believing that there is an OBJECTIVE right or wrong. And when that happens, the worst atrocities are possible.

Been through this many times. Don't agree, but respect your opinion. Your religion has been the greatest beneficiary of secular thought, science, industry and tolerance. Once a brutal tyranny, now a more benevolent pain in the ass, because of atheists and secularist and people who outright opposed your church.

Wanna talk about communism or national socialism? fine, start another thread. Please try to stay on topic here.

Your attempts to divert are growing tiresome.

[kalm]

In all seriousness, even if we agree that Christianity was responsible for the stagnation of science in Europe the dark ages, then how can you blame it for the stagnation of science itself? There were civilizations in the Arab World, Southeast Asia, and Central and South America that were all advanced in their own right. Did Christianity keep those civilizations from advancing science? Or do the Christianity-bashers subscribe to the same theory as the atheist James Watson that only the pinkskins are blessed by evolution with the ability to invent and innovate?

Some of the bloodiest massacres in human history were christians (primarily catholics) bludgeoning arabs/muslims.

"Missions" back in those days were in fact invading armies from the west. If the natives were not outright murdered, they died of various plagues brought on by the christian horde.

Archaelologists have discovered amazing evidence of advanced thought in the aboriginal lands, what was not coopted by european, christian invaders was most like lost though genocide.

You don't suppose that some aboriginal cultures we're also figuring out how to maintain order, form a society, and cooperation for the betterment of the tribe without the church's help are you?

[D1B]

Some of the bloodiest massacres in human history were christians (primarily catholics) bludgeoning arabs/muslims.

"Missions" back in those days were in fact invading armies from the west. If the natives were not outright murdered, they died of various plagues brought on by the christian horde.

Archaelologists have discovered amazing evidence of advanced thought in the aboriginal lands, what was not coopted by european, christian invaders was most like lost though genocide.

You don't suppose that some aboriginal cultures we're also figuring out how to maintain order, form a society, and cooperation for the betterment of the tribe without the church's help are you?

It's just sad. This thread reminds me of the massive suffering humans have endured becuause of christianity, most notably, roman catholocism. We'd have a cure for cancer right now.

[JMU DJ]

Hindering science? Explain how.

As for Orazio Morandi, he's an astrologer who died in prison. He's now your martyred scientist? (I admit I had to google this guy).

I guess the ball's in your court again. 0-for-5 at this point.

Hindering science by forbidding teachings, imprisonment, banning scientific text, calling medical development sins, etc.



The Occult has been considered a scientific study and to some extent, has been researched up to present times. If you would like, I could forward you some studies involving the measurements of the souls weight, the physical composition of ectoplasm, etc that were published in the early 1900's in reputable scientific journals still in print. Morandi imprisoned for studying something contrary to Catholic dogma/predicting the popes death Study hindered.... and since you were using the "back in those days" argument, Astrology was a well respected study back in those days. You are aware Galileo was an astrologist? Are you also aware most think Morandi was poisoned in prison? Well, besides the the Catholic hierarchy of the day.

In all seriousness, even if we agree that Christianity was responsible for the stagnation of science in Europe the dark ages, then how can you blame it for the stagnation of science itself? There were civilizations in the Arab World, Southeast Asia, and Central and South America that were all advanced in their own right. Did Christianity keep those civilizations from advancing science? Or do the Christianity-bashers subscribe to the same theory as the atheist James Watson that only the pinkskins are blessed by evolution with the ability to invent and innovate?

Don't think anyone is saying that here, it's more Joe saying the Catholics didn't do anything. There were scientific discoveries in the Non-Western world... you just aren't familiar with them as we come from a western background and are Euro-centric. If you would like, I could provide you with some non-European inventions/discoveries... some long before any westerner discovered them, probably due to Catholics hindering scientific progression

In fact, some of the earliest proponents of the scientific method were non-Europeans...

[catamount man]

God bless JJ.

[D1B]

Hindering science? Explain how.

As for Orazio Morandi, he's an astrologer who died in prison. He's now your martyred scientist? (I admit I had to google this guy).

I guess the ball's in your court again. 0-for-5 at this point.

Hindering science by forbidding teachings, imprisonment, banning scientific text, calling medical development sins, etc.



The Occult has been considered a scientific study and to some extent, has been researched up to present times. If you would like, I could forward you some studies involving the measurements of the souls weight, the physical composition of ectoplasm, etc that were published in the early 1900's in reputable scientific journals still in print. Morandi imprisoned for studying something contrary to Catholic dogma/predicting the popes death Study hindered.... and since you were using the "back in those days" argument, Astrology was a well respected study back in those days. You are aware Galileo was an astrologist? Are you also aware most think Morandi was poisoned in prison? Well, besides the the Catholic hierarchy of the day.

In all seriousness, even if we agree that Christianity was responsible for the stagnation of science in Europe the dark ages, then how can you blame it for the stagnation of science itself? There were civilizations in the Arab World, Southeast Asia, and Central and South America that were all advanced in their own right. Did Christianity keep those civilizations from advancing science? Or do the Christianity-bashers subscribe to the same theory as the atheist James Watson that only the pinkskins are blessed by evolution with the ability to invent and innovate?

Don't think anyone is saying that here, it's more Joe saying the Catholics didn't do anything. There were scientific discoveries in the Non-Western world... you just aren't familiar with them as we come from a western background and are Euro-centric. If you would like, I could provide you with some non-European inventions/discoveries... some long before any westerner discovered them, probably due to Catholics hindering scientific progression

In fact, some of the earliest proponents of the scientific method were non-Europeans...

Catholics also controlled history. They approved the books, they wrote the books according to their outlook and they of course burned the books that were inconsistent with church dogma. It has only been in recent times that scholarly critcism and analysis of the church and history is not automatically met with punishment, losing your job or losing your life.

[D1B]

God bless JJ.

Says the guy who left the catholic church.

[D1B]

Here's the spot in Rome where Bruno was burned at the stake by catholics. The statue commemorats Bruno as a martyr for free thought.

[JMU DJ]

Here's the spot in Rome where Bruno was burned at the stake by catholics. The statue commemorats Bruno as a martyr for free thought.

Free thought doesn't make him a scientist, and since he was killed by the Catholics, he couldn't have been a scientist. He was just a philosopher who made scientific postulations.

[D1B]

Here's another way the catholic church suppressed science, art, philosophy and literature.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce the Index Librorum Prohibitorum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_au ... ohibitorum



This list of prohibited publications by the Cathlic Church was finally abolished in 1966 after a 400+ year run. Pretty sad, seeing they invented the university system.

Here's a shocking list containing numerous western intellectual giants.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/indexlibrorum.html

Rabelais (CW)
Montaigne (Essais)
Descartes (Méditations Métaphysiques et 6 autres livres, 1948)
La Fontaine (Contes et Nouvelles)
Pascal (Pensées)
Montesquieu (Lettres Persanes, 1948)
Voltaire (Lettres philosophiques; Histoire des croisades; Cantiques des Cantiques),
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (Du Contrat Social; La Nouvelle Héloïse)
Denis Diderot (CW, Encyclopédie)
Helvétius (De l'Esprit; De l'homme, de ses facultés intellectuelles et de son éducation )
Casanova (Mémoires)
Sade (Justine, Juliette)
Mme De Stael (Corinne ou l'Italie)
Stendhal (Le Rouge et le noir, 1948),
Balzac (CW)
Victor Hugo (Notre Dame de Paris; Les misérables jusqu'en 1959)
Gustave Flaubert (Mme Bovary; Salammbô)
Alexandre Dumas (divers romans)
Emile Zola (CW)
Maeterlinck (CW)
Pierre Larousse (Grand Dictionnaire Universel),
Anatole France (prix Nobel en 1921, CW à l'Index en 1922),
Andre Gide (prix Nobel, CW à l'Index en 1952)
Jean Paul Sartre (Prix Nobel (refusé), CW à l'Index en 1959).

"One could ask what did the study of literature look like in religious schools?"

Other Authors Listed

Peter Abelard,
Erasmus
Nicholas. Machiavelli
John Calvin
John Milton
Malebranche
Baruch Spinoza
John. Locke
Bishop Berkeley
David Hume
Condillac
d'Holbach
d'Alembert
La Mettrie
Condorcet
Daniel. Defoe
Jonathan. Swift
Swedenborg
Laurence. Sterne
Emmanuek. Kant
H. Heine
J. S. Mill
G. D'Annunzio
H. Bergson.

"Without any surprise, the Index also conatined many theologians and translators of the Bible, and historians of religion. For example:
Richard Simon (17-ième siècle) whose Histoire critique du Vieux Testament inaugured the critical study of sacred texts (taken up by E. Renan and many others) and A. Loisy, (excommunicated in 1908).

Source: for this Information:

http://www.union-fin.fr/~bcourcel/LivresInterdits.html

Another list on the net includes the following:

"In 1966 the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ceased publication of the INDEX but claimed that it still served as a "moral guide in so far as it reminds the conscience of the faithful they must avoid writings which can be dangerous to faith & morals." Today the Church may issue an "admonitum," a warning to the faithful, that a book might be dangerous. It is only a moral guide, however, without the force of ecclesiastical law."

The following have been condemned in the INDEX for being immoral or heretical or both.


SOME NOVELISTS IN THE INDEX
AUTHOR
Samuel Richardson (ENG)
Laurence Stern (ENG)
Stendhal (FR)
Victor Hugo (FR)
George Sand (FR)
Honore de Balzac (FR)
Eugene Sue (FR)
A. Dumas pere (FR)
A. Dumas fil (FR)
Gustave Flaubert (FR)
Gabriele D'Annunzio (IT)
Alberto Morovia (IT)

SOME NON-FICTION WRITERS IN THE INDEX
Thomas Hobbes (ENG)
Rene Descartes (FR)
Francis Bacon (ENG)
Michel de Montaigne(FR)
Benedict Spinoza(NETH)
John Milton (ENG)
Joseph Addison (ENG)
Richard Steel (ENG)
John Locke (ENG)
Emanuel Swedenborg (SW)
Daniel Defoe (ENG)
David Hume (SCOT)
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (FR)
Edward Gibbon (ENG)
Blaise Pascal (FR)
Oliver Goldsmith (ENG)
Immanual Kant (GER)
Giovanni Casanova (FR)
John Stuart Mill (ENG)
Ernest Renan (FR)
Emile Zola (FR)
Andrew Lang (ENG)
Henri Bergson (FR)
Benedetto Croce (IT)
Jean-paul Sartre (FR)

[JMU DJ]

Here's another way the catholic church suppressed science, art, philosophy and literature.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce the Index Librorum Prohibitorum


Francis Bacon (ENG)

That one right there debunks the video in it's entirety.

[D1B]

Here's the spot in Rome where Bruno was burned at the stake by catholics. The statue commemorats Bruno as a martyr for free thought.

Free thought doesn't make him a scientist, and since he was killed by the Catholics, he couldn't have been a scientist. He was just a philosopher who made scientific postulations.

Best use of Aristotillian Syllogism nomination!

[D1B]

Here's another way the catholic church suppressed science, art, philosophy and literature.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce the Index Librorum Prohibitorum


Francis Bacon (ENG)

That one right there debunks the video in it's entirety.

Yeah, that's a biggie.

[JoltinJoe]

Jeff, try to understand this. If you want to be an atheist and still adhere to Judeo-Christian ethics, fine.

But history has proven, beyond a doubt, that there is no greater enemy to man than official atheism as a state position. The number of dead at the hands of state atheism is 100 million in the past century. It is the single greatest atrocity ever inflicted on mankind.

You should be grateful you live in a country founded on the natural law precept set forth in my signature, and the on-going recognition of an objective truth imposed by a creator. You should be grateful for the faithful who still understand the connection between the fact of God and the fact of objective truth.

Take away God, you take away objective truth. Take away objective truth, you are left with relativism, and no basis for believing that there is an OBJECTIVE right or wrong. And when that happens, the worst atrocities are possible.

I thought deists like Jefferson were more products of the enlightenment than the church?

Jefferson was an advocate of natural law, as is this Catholic Church. That's the connection I was referencing.

[D1B]

Here's another way the catholic church suppressed science, art, philosophy and literature.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce the Index Librorum Prohibitorum


Francis Bacon (ENG)

That one right there debunks the video in it's entirety.

Spinoza is another one. He was a beautiful human being.

[JoltinJoe]

Here's the spot in Rome where Bruno was burned at the stake by catholics. The statue commemorats Bruno as a martyr for free thought.

Free thought doesn't make him a scientist, and since he was killed by the Catholics, he couldn't have been a scientist. He was just a philosopher who made scientific postulations.

So having failed to identify a real scientist executed by the Catholic Church, you're back to trying to claim Bruno as a scientist?

[JoltinJoe]

Hindering science? Explain how.

As for Orazio Morandi, he's an astrologer who died in prison. He's now your martyred scientist? (I admit I had to google this guy).

I guess the ball's in your court again. 0-for-5 at this point.

Hindering science by forbidding teachings, imprisonment, banning scientific text, calling medical development sins, etc....

Give me facts, not conclusions.

[catamount man]

God bless JJ.

Says the guy who left the catholic church.

true, but I didn't leave Christianity.

[D1B]

I thought deists like Jefferson were more products of the enlightenment than the church?

Jefferson was an advocate of natural law, as is this Catholic Church. That's the connection I was referencing.

Kalm, you are absolutely correct. Jefferson ultimately didn't give a fuck about the church. He may have held some beliefs in a creator and or referenced scripture, but he knew the dangers of the church and the absurdity of the bible.

[D1B]

Says the guy who left the catholic church.

true, but I didn't leave Christianity.

You will.

[D1B]

Hindering science by forbidding teachings, imprisonment, banning scientific text, calling medical development sins, etc....

Give me facts, not conclusions.

Here you go:

[JoltinJoe]

Jefferson was an advocate of natural law, as is this Catholic Church. That's the connection I was referencing.

Kalm, you are absolutely correct. Jefferson ultimately didn't give a **** about the church. He may have held some beliefs in a creator and or referenced scripture, but he knew the dangers of the church and the absurdity of the bible.

Seriously, you know next to nothing about Jefferson. While Jefferson believed that religious instiutions in the Western tradition had historically maitained too close ties to political power, he affirmatively believed that the well-being of society was rooted in a wide acceptance of Judeo-Christian values by society as a whole. He was a theist who believed in natural law.

[JMU DJ]

Hindering science by forbidding teachings, imprisonment, banning scientific text, calling medical development sins, etc....

Give me facts, not conclusions.

How about this one, the church condeming the use of chloroform and other anesthetics. Or that list of banned literature D provided. If you would like other examples I could provide them for you.


Not claiming Bruno was a scientist, but back in his day philosophers and scientist were interchangable. Way to support the killing of free thought

[JoltinJoe]

Here's the spot in Rome where Bruno was burned at the stake by catholics. The statue commemorats Bruno as a martyr for free thought.

See, this is where you are wrong again. Bruno was put to death by civil authorities. Fact.