Chicago archdiocese settles sex abuse case for $12+ million

[travelinman67]

Completely serious question.

Based upon comments I've read in the past, I surmise that you and the Cap were sent to Catholic school at least in k-6 grades, and subsequently either attended or participated with the church after 6th grade.

This is not meant to provoke you, but merely a question to better understand your passionate mistrust of Catholicism: Were either of you, or someone you know, "victimized' by church employees. You can PM/email me if you prefer to keep this private.

You obviously have not payed close attention to my posts. We were in catholic school right up until high school. Never had a problem and what makes you think you would be a good steward of my private information? You're insane.

We were brought up catholic but we were also brought up to think for ourselves. Our parents gave up on forcing religion on us in high school. I don't hold them responsible, they were doing what they thought was best at the time. They are victims. All my siblings are non believers and to the best of my knowledge, none were raped or molested by catholic priests. We're honest and practical people. Religion is not honest and certainly not practical.

Perhaps your curiosity could be better satiated by figuring out how an educated, highly intellligent, grown man like yourself still believes in fairy tales and ghosts?

Sorry Tman, nothing happened and there's nothing wrong with me, at least related to this subject.

Seems too peculiar for someone to become so fixated with a vengeful hatred about any one subject. If all you believe about Catholicism is correct, then it's inevitable the religion will eventually collapse (you know, the good-v-evil thing...ooops...my bad...that's all a fairy tale). Anyway, gotta wonder with all the knowledge you and bro have about sexual perversity, what "initiated" that curiousity.

...BTW, I'm sure you're also correct that I would be a lousy steward of anyone's personal information.

[SuperHornet]

Anyone who whitewashes an entire organization for the actions of a FEW (albeit a widespread few) is irresponsible. I for one have worked with PLENTY of Catholic priests, and NONE of them would stoop to that cr@p. While I don't agree with all tenets of Catholicism, I take umbrage that the characters of these fine men would be smeared by a guy who has never met them on the mere basis of scandals that they have never even been near.

[Cap'n Cat]

To hell with the altar boy stuff, I'm way beyond that.

What I can't fathom is how in the fvck a goddamned' priest can advise and counsel couples before and during marriage????

[dbackjon]

To hell with the altar boy stuff, I'm way beyond that.

What I can't fathom is how in the fvck a goddamned' priest can advise and counsel couples before and during marriage????

agreed on that!

[D1B]

You obviously have not payed close attention to my posts. We were in catholic school right up until high school. Never had a problem and what makes you think you would be a good steward of my private information? You're insane.

We were brought up catholic but we were also brought up to think for ourselves. Our parents gave up on forcing religion on us in high school. I don't hold them responsible, they were doing what they thought was best at the time. They are victims. All my siblings are non believers and to the best of my knowledge, none were raped or molested by catholic priests. We're honest and practical people. Religion is not honest and certainly not practical.

Perhaps your curiosity could be better satiated by figuring out how an educated, highly intellligent, grown man like yourself still believes in fairy tales and ghosts?

Sorry Tman, nothing happened and there's nothing wrong with me, at least related to this subject.

Seems too peculiar for someone to become so fixated with a vengeful hatred about any one subject. If all you believe about Catholicism is correct, then it's inevitable the religion will eventually collapse (you know, the good-v-evil thing...ooops...my bad...that's all a fairy tale). Anyway, gotta wonder with all the knowledge you and bro have about sexual perversity, what "initiated" that curiousity.

...BTW, I'm sure you're also correct that I would be a lousy steward of anyone's personal information.

Knowledge of sexual perversity? Was not aware of I was a prolific poster of porn & sex related subject matter. In fact I can't really remember posting anything sexually perverse. Get your shit straight Tman. Sex is Captain's gig, disparaging judeo christian religions and smoking weed is mine.

I get good vibes from you. You would be a good steward of sensitive info. I just wanted to take a shot at you.

[D1B]

Anyone who whitewashes an entire organization for the actions of a FEW (albeit a widespread few) is irresponsible. I for one have worked with PLENTY of Catholic priests, and NONE of them would stoop to that cr@p. While I don't agree with all tenets of Catholicism, I take umbrage that the characters of these fine men would be smeared by a guy who has never met them on the mere basis of scandals that they have never even been near.

[travelinman67]

Seems too peculiar for someone to become so fixated with a vengeful hatred about any one subject. If all you believe about Catholicism is correct, then it's inevitable the religion will eventually collapse (you know, the good-v-evil thing...ooops...my bad...that's all a fairy tale). Anyway, gotta wonder with all the knowledge you and bro have about sexual perversity, what "initiated" that curiousity.

...BTW, I'm sure you're also correct that I would be a lousy steward of anyone's personal information.

Knowledge of sexual perversity? Was not aware of I was a prolific poster of porn & sex related subject matter. In fact I can't really remember posting anything sexually perverse. Get your shit straight Tman. Sex is Captain's gig, disparaging judeo christian religions and smoking weed is mine.

I get good vibes from you. You would be a good steward of sensitive info. I just wanted to take a shot at you.

...then Cap corrupted you. I'll tell you how much of a f'n square I am...I looked up "teabagging" suspecting there was a double entendre, and almost threw up.

Sorry D1B, but you're a pervert. Agreed, not on the scale of Cap, but you're a work in progress.

[Cap'n Cat]

Knowledge of sexual perversity? Was not aware of I was a prolific poster of porn & sex related subject matter. In fact I can't really remember posting anything sexually perverse. Get your shit straight Tman. Sex is Captain's gig, disparaging judeo christian religions and smoking weed is mine.

I get good vibes from you. You would be a good steward of sensitive info. I just wanted to take a shot at you.

...then Cap corrupted you. I'll tell you how much of a f'n square I am...I looked up "teabagging" suspecting there was a double entendre, and almost threw up.

Sorry D1B, but you're a pervert. Agreed, not on the scale of Cap, but you're a work in progress.

You're wrong about D, but, still....LMFatAO!!!

[JoltinJoe]

What about Cardinal George deposition substantiates your statements?

I've read a good portion of it, and he comes across as an earnest official trying to rectify a very serious issue. In fact, the Archdiocese posted this on its website as a condition of the settlement, and the plaintiff's counsel has praised George for his personal involvement in this process.

More to the point, the questioning by the plaintiff's attorney is pretty heavy-handed, but George does a very good job answering questions, conceding where he made mistakes, but largely revealing the errors in numerous presuppositions implicit in the questions.

[D1B]

What about Cardinal George deposition substantiates your statements?

I've read a good portion of it, and he comes across as an earnest official trying to rectify a very serious issue. In fact, the Archdiocese posted this on its website as a condition of the settlement, and the plaintiff's counsel has praised George for his personal involvement in this process.

More to the point, the questioning by the plaintiff's attorney is pretty heavy-handed, but George does a very good job answering questions, conceding where he made mistakes, but largely revealing the errors in numerous presuppositions implicit in the questions.

Joe of course that's how you read it. Cardinal George is a hero and a martyr.

As I said originally, the deposition is an intriguing inside view of catholic ass covering and systemic incompetance as it relates to the welfare of children and victims of sexual abuse. That's it, people can make their own judgements.

[D1B]

Knowledge of sexual perversity? Was not aware of I was a prolific poster of porn & sex related subject matter. In fact I can't really remember posting anything sexually perverse. Get your shit straight Tman. Sex is Captain's gig, disparaging judeo christian religions and smoking weed is mine.

I get good vibes from you. You would be a good steward of sensitive info. I just wanted to take a shot at you.

...then Cap corrupted you. I'll tell you how much of a f'n square I am...I looked up "teabagging" suspecting there was a double entendre, and almost threw up.

Sorry D1B, but you're a pervert. Agreed, not on the scale of Cap, but you're a work in progress.

Says the guy with the ass shot as his avatar.

[Ibanez]

...then Cap corrupted you. I'll tell you how much of a f'n square I am...I looked up "teabagging" suspecting there was a double entendre, and almost threw up.

Sorry D1B, but you're a pervert. Agreed, not on the scale of Cap, but you're a work in progress.

Says the guy with the ass shot as his avatar.

[JoltinJoe]

What about Cardinal George deposition substantiates your statements?

I've read a good portion of it, and he comes across as an earnest official trying to rectify a very serious issue. In fact, the Archdiocese posted this on its website as a condition of the settlement, and the plaintiff's counsel has praised George for his personal involvement in this process.

More to the point, the questioning by the plaintiff's attorney is pretty heavy-handed, but George does a very good job answering questions, conceding where he made mistakes, but largely revealing the errors in numerous presuppositions implicit in the questions.

Joe of course that's how you read it. Cardinal George is a hero and a martyr.

As I said originally, the deposition is an intriguing inside view of catholic ass covering and systemic incompetance as it relates to the welfare of children and victims of sexual abuse. That's it, people can make their own judgements.

I never said he was a hero or a martyr.

You posted a link to deposition testimony and then characterized its 307 pages of content.

I think it is a fair question as to what portions of this transcript support that characterization.

Nothing compels you to have to answer that question but, if you don't, then don't be surprised if people reject your characterizations.

[AZGrizFan]

Says the guy with the ass shot as his avatar.

Hey, hey, HEY!!!!! You leave that avatar OUT of this discusion!!!!!

[Appaholic]

To hell with the altar boy stuff, I'm way beyond that.

What I can't fathom is how in the fvck a goddamned' priest can advise and counsel couples before and during marriage????

WWJS?

[D1B]

Joe of course that's how you read it. Cardinal George is a hero and a martyr.

As I said originally, the deposition is an intriguing inside view of catholic ass covering and systemic incompetance as it relates to the welfare of children and victims of sexual abuse. That's it, people can make their own judgements.

I never said he was a hero or a martyr.

You posted a link to deposition testimony and then characterized its 307 pages of content.

I think it is a fair question as to what portions of this transcript support that characterization.

Nothing compels you to have to answer that question but, if you don't, then don't be surprised if people reject your characterizations.

To me Joe, most of it, if by "characterizations" you mean how fucked up the church was. I agree with you that he's more honest and takes some responsibility, unlike other church leaders. He is though, at varying times, evasive and appears to feign confusion. Overall his testimony gives us a glimpse into the utter irresponsiblity the church displayed in regards to child safety and welfare. If you do not see this then there is nothing more I can do.

[JoltinJoe]

My most specific objection is you called Cardinal George a "scumbag."

I don't see anything in the transcript to support that.

I think Cardinal George has done his best to step up, take responsibility for what happened, to be a forceful presence for change, and to resolve these claims fairly and responsibily.

I base that on my review of his words, both in this deposition and elsewhere, and his actions.

I think this is why the plaintiffs' attorney has praised Cardinal George and said he has "demonstrated his commitment to healing these survivors." If the plaintiffs' attorney sees George as a honorable man of action, what is it that you find offensive about him?

In assessing Church leaders, I think it is as important to note the efforts of men like Cardinal George, as it is to note the arrogance of men like Cardinal Law.

I'm grateful for the leadership Cardinal George has demonstrated on this issue.

[dbackjon]

My most specific objection is you called Cardinal George a "scumbag."

I don't see anything in the transcript to support that.

I think Cardinal George has done his best to step up, take responsibility for what happened, to be a forceful presence for change, and to resolve these claims fairly and responsibily.

I base that on my review of his words, both in this deposition and elsewhere, and his actions.

I think this is why the plaintiffs' attorney has praised Cardinal George and said he has "demonstrated his commitment to healing these survivors." If the plaintiffs' attorney sees George as a honorable man of action, what is it that you find offensive about him?

In assessing Church leaders, I think it is as important to note the efforts of men like Cardinal George, as it is to note the arrogance of men like Cardinal Law.

I'm grateful for the leadership Cardinal George has demonstrated on this issue.

Unfortunately, until recently, men like Cardinal Law have dominated.

[JoltinJoe]

My most specific objection is you called Cardinal George a "scumbag."

I don't see anything in the transcript to support that.

I think Cardinal George has done his best to step up, take responsibility for what happened, to be a forceful presence for change, and to resolve these claims fairly and responsibily.

I base that on my review of his words, both in this deposition and elsewhere, and his actions.

I think this is why the plaintiffs' attorney has praised Cardinal George and said he has "demonstrated his commitment to healing these survivors." If the plaintiffs' attorney sees George as a honorable man of action, what is it that you find offensive about him?

In assessing Church leaders, I think it is as important to note the efforts of men like Cardinal George, as it is to note the arrogance of men like Cardinal Law.

I'm grateful for the leadership Cardinal George has demonstrated on this issue.

Unfortunately, until recently, men like Cardinal Law have dominated.

I understand why you say that, but I don't know if they "dominated." I think it is more accurate to say is that there are a not insignificant number of cardinals/bishops whose failures were so profound, and their willingness to conceal criminal acts under their watch so on-going, that they have caused a nationwide scandal impacting on perceptions of the entire leadership.

I know you had a real loser in Phoenix whose name is escaping me at the moment.

[dbackjon]

Unfortunately, until recently, men like Cardinal Law have dominated.

I understand why you say that, but I don't know if they "dominated." I think it is more accurate to say is that there are a number of cardinals whose failures were so profound, and their willingness to conceal criminal acts under their watch so on-going, that they have caused a nationwide scandal impacting on perceptions of the entire leadership.

I know you had a real loser in Phoenix whose name is escaping me at the moment.

Thomas "scum of the earth" O'Brien

Admitted to transfering pedophiles. Involved in fatal hit and run. Got out of both because he is a so-called man of god. He should be rotting in jail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/18/natio ... r=USERLAND

[Ibanez]

Listen,
There are many things that religions in general are iffy on. It's all faith based, you can disprove things with science. You can disprove the floods, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, etc... Religion is meant to control your mind and therefore control your behavior. Having said that, these men that hide behind the cloth an are denied thier basic, animal instincts should be ashamed of themselves and deserve severe, harsh punishments but if the Church truly wants to change it, they have to get with the times. They have to conform to the modern day. And I'm not saying that the morals have to change or the "dogma" has to change. But tradition. Priests don't marry b/c the apostles weren't married(in the Bible) but being marriage has no bearing on weather or not the man is fit to preach the word of God(Allah, Yaweah, Abba, Gishnu, whateva!). The Catholic Church has changed traditions in the past, it has allowed women to take a roll, it's time to stop denying marriage for it's mouthpieces. I guarentee you that if you let these priests marry, and have sex with their wives, that you'll see the numbers of pedophiles decrease.

[AZGrizFan]

Unfortunately, until recently, men like Cardinal Law have dominated.

I understand why you say that, but I don't know if they "dominated." I think it is more accurate to say is that there are a not insignificant number of cardinals/bishops whose failures were so profound, and their willingness to conceal criminal acts under their watch so on-going, that they have caused a nationwide scandal impacting on perceptions of the entire leadership.

I know you had a real loser in Phoenix whose name is escaping me at the moment.

That's pretty much the way I see it, Joe. A complete failure of leadership which, had they nipped this in the bud early and taken the relatively minor lumps, this would all be ancient history by now...but, alas....

[SuperHornet]

Listen,
There are many things that religions in general are iffy on. It's all faith based, you can disprove things with science. You can disprove the floods, the plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, etc... Religion is meant to control your mind and therefore control your behavior. Having said that, these men that hide behind the cloth an are denied thier basic, animal instincts should be ashamed of themselves and deserve severe, harsh punishments but if the Church truly wants to change it, they have to get with the times. They have to conform to the modern day. And I'm not saying that the morals have to change or the "dogma" has to change. But tradition. Priests don't marry b/c the apostles weren't married(in the Bible) but being marriage has no bearing on weather or not the man is fit to preach the word of God(Allah, Yaweah, Abba, Gishnu, whateva!). The Catholic Church has changed traditions in the past, it has allowed women to take a roll, it's time to stop denying marriage for it's mouthpieces. I guarentee you that if you let these priests marry, and have sex with their wives, that you'll see the numbers of pedophiles decrease.

You care to prove that, Mark? There are PLENTY of Ph.D. scientists who would GLADLY dispute that and have the science to back them up.

Actually, science backs up the Bible, and has since people started trying to disprove it two- to three-hundred years ago.

[travelinman67]

What about Cardinal George deposition substantiates your statements?

I've read a good portion of it, and he comes across as an earnest official trying to rectify a very serious issue. In fact, the Archdiocese posted this on its website as a condition of the settlement, and the plaintiff's counsel has praised George for his personal involvement in this process.

More to the point, the questioning by the plaintiff's attorney is pretty heavy-handed, but George does a very good job answering questions, conceding where he made mistakes, but largely revealing the errors in numerous presuppositions implicit in the questions.

Joe of course that's how you read it. Cardinal George is a hero and a martyr.

As I said originally, the deposition is an intriguing inside view of catholic ass covering and systemic incompetance as it relates to the welfare of children and victims of sexual abuse. That's it, people can make their own judgements.

Like Joe, I read a great deal of the deposition. Setting aside the nuanced posturing by attorneys, at face value none of the Cardinal's responses could support a criminal complaint, and arguably, the most notable observation is the "Church's" bureaucracy when dealing with such accusations. It's very apparent that the church either had it's head in the sand in assessing the severity of the problem or systemically ignored the criticism/advice of investigative agencies, hence the inexcusable delay until 2002 to address a portion of the complaint/investigation. Call it arrogance or "justifiable" self-righteous disregard for criticism from secular government agencies (yes, the church not only has the right but the moral obligation to IGNORE popular trend/opinion, but unfortunately, it appears this practice was inherited by the Church's internal evaluatory Holy See, who irresponsibly ignored numerous indicae supporting criminal conduct by it's priests.).
Within the context of the Catholic (and other church's) practices, it doesn't appear the Cardinal acted/reacted maliciously or with gross negligence, therefore, personal punitive damages also do not appear warranted. IMHO.

It's a head-shaking legacy for the Catholic church...

[D1B]

Joe of course that's how you read it. Cardinal George is a hero and a martyr.

As I said originally, the deposition is an intriguing inside view of catholic ass covering and systemic incompetance as it relates to the welfare of children and victims of sexual abuse. That's it, people can make their own judgements.

Like Joe, I read a great deal of the deposition. Setting aside the nuanced posturing by attorneys, at face value none of the Cardinal's responses could support a criminal complaint, and arguably, the most notable observation is the "Church's" bureaucracy when dealing with such accusations. It's very apparent that the church either had it's head in the sand in assessing the severity of the problem or systemically ignored the criticism/advice of investigative agencies, hence the inexcusable delay until 2002 to address a portion of the complaint/investigation. Call it arrogance or "justifiable" self-righteous disregard for criticism from secular government agencies (yes, the church not only has the right but the moral obligation to IGNORE popular trend/opinion, but unfortunately, it appears this practice was inherited by the Church's internal evaluatory Holy See, who irresponsibly ignored numerous indicae supporting criminal conduct by it's priests.).
Within the context of the Catholic (and other church's) practices, it doesn't appear the Cardinal acted/reacted maliciously or with gross negligence, therefore, personal punitive damages also do not appear warranted. IMHO.

It's a head-shaking legacy for the Catholic church...

Good post.