Suggested Reading for AZGF...

[kalm]

Going back to your original point. I think self determination, egalitarianism, upward mobility, cooperation...democracy are very strong human impulses perhaps partly innate but definetly learned throughout the ages as man progresses. People don't simply chose a life of indentured servitude and living under draconian laws like we see in the theocracies of the muslim world.

So I've got to side with Z on this one.

No they don't chose that - but India had (and still has to a degree a class system) and they for some unknown reason - even now functioning under The Republic of India and calling itself a Union of Government the people still cling to a class system

Free peoples in a free country - with a republic as a political format - still choose a "class system" to govern themselves in their own communities...

explain that..?

There are cultures in this world that do not hold the notion of Democracy as inherently valuable

Yeah, I had thought of India, and England has gone through much the same thing. There's nothing that says democracy is perfect or easy to achieve.

I don't know enough about India to comment on why they might cling to a class system, but might it have something to do with economics and the wealth/power gap?

Couldn't the same be said of this country where the working poor and middle class could become rich if they simply worked a little harder and made better decisions? That's the Republican meem right? Perhaps they're just clinging to our own class system.

[AZGrizFan]

I'll read a book as soon as clitorus answers my question: How can you make the ridiculous claim that people have "no interest in democracy" when they've never been exposed to it?

He equates lack of action against the government with approval for their system of government.

The two are not necessarily related.

[bobbythekidd]

I'll read a book as soon as clitorus answers my question: How can you make the ridiculous claim that people have "no interest in democracy" when they've never been exposed to it?

He equates lack of action against the government with approval for their system of government.

The two are not necessarily related.

The same can be said of your beliefs. You have never lived in a communist country, but you feel absolutely certain you want no part of it.

[Skjellyfetti]

I think people in some countries living in dictatorship have no interest in democracy primarily due to religion... and usually monotheism.

A country with a population of fervent, fundamentalist citizens with the belief that their dictator is ordained by God have no desire to overthrow, rebel against, criticize because it would be rebeling against their God.

[kalm]

Another factor in the modern sense is colonialism which could be argued has interupted the spread of democracy from time to time. An example would be Iran where the Brits and the U.S. removed the democratically elected leader Moussadeq from power in the 1950's right after he threatened to nationalize their oil industry.

It's always easier for a colonial power to take advantage of a nation's resources through an authoriatarian strong man surrogate that you can cooerce or pay to remain loyal.

[Skjellyfetti]

Another factor in the modern sense is colonialism which could be argued has interupted the spread of democracy from time to time. An example would be Iran where the Brits and the U.S. removed the democratically elected leader Moussadeq from power in the 1950's right after he threatened to nationalize their oil industry.

It's always easier for a colonial power to take advantage of a nation's resources through an authoriatarian strong man surrogate that you can cooerce or pay to remain loyal.

Excellent point.

[kalm]

I think people in some countries living in dictatorship have no interest in democracy primarily due to religion... and usually monotheism.

A country with a population of fervent, fundamentalist citizens with the belief that their dictator is ordained by God have no desire to overthrow, rebel against, criticize because it would be rebeling against their God.

But do they have a choice? It's also not a coincidence that these nations are almost always patriarchies. What would happen if the women folk, 50% of the population, got all uppity and had a say?

[Chizzang]

I'll read a book as soon as clitorus answers my question: How can you make the ridiculous claim that people have "no interest in democracy" when they've never been exposed to it?

He equates lack of action against the government with approval for their system of government.

The two are not necessarily related.

I answered your question:
Democracy and Republics are Ancient ideas and ancient systems - they are not a secret - people organize systems based on personal beliefs and ideologies that suit their personal nature

A people descended from nomadic tribes - such as Arabic peoples - effectively view the world differently than peoples descended from an imperial heritage...

Because we see Democracy as the height of societal development - does not mean other cultures - who are well aware of what we think - will necessarily agree...

[kalm]

I'll read a book as soon as clitorus answers my question: How can you make the ridiculous claim that people have "no interest in democracy" when they've never been exposed to it?

He equates lack of action against the government with approval for their system of government.

The two are not necessarily related.

I answered your question:
Democracy and Republics are Ancient ideas and ancient systems - they are not a secret - people organize systems based on personal beliefs and ideologies that suit their personal nature

A people descended from nomadic tribes - such as Arabic peoples - effectively view the world differently than peoples descended from an imperial heritage...

Because we see Democracy as the height of societal development - does not mean other cultures - who are well aware of what we think - will necessarily agree...

We all descended from nomadic tribes. Some are just futher down the road.

[Chizzang]

I think people in some countries living in dictatorship have no interest in democracy primarily due to religion... and usually monotheism.

A country with a population of fervent, fundamentalist citizens with the belief that their dictator is ordained by God have no desire to overthrow, rebel against, criticize because it would be rebeling against their God.

But do they have a choice? It's also not a coincidence that these nations are almost always patriarchies. What would happen if the women folk, 50% of the population, got all uppity and had a say?

That's been my point all along - if they get organized - they can effect great change (PERIOD)
a great book was written where a large number of "over throws" were compared and documented

The net result was: 4 generations of organization ( about 60 to 75 years) and any Government can be toppled

[Chizzang]

I answered your question:
Democracy and Republics are Ancient ideas and ancient systems - they are not a secret - people organize systems based on personal beliefs and ideologies that suit their personal nature

A people descended from nomadic tribes - such as Arabic peoples - effectively view the world differently than peoples descended from an imperial heritage...

Because we see Democracy as the height of societal development - does not mean other cultures - who are well aware of what we think - will necessarily agree...

We all descended from nomadic tribes. Some are just futher down the road.

There are men in the house of Saudi who's grandfathers were Nomadic Tribes rulers - I don't know about you but my grandfather worked for the railroad here in the USA

do you get it..? Recently descended - like - family pictures - Lawrence of Arabia

[kalm]

We all descended from nomadic tribes. Some are just futher down the road.

There are men in the house of Saudi who's grandfathers were Nomadic Tribes rulers - I don't know about you but my grandfather worked for the railroad here in the USA

do you get it..? Recently descended - like - family pictures - Lawrence of Arabia

Were you not just arguing that everybody is privvy to democracy and some have chosen otherwise? Or are you willing to admit that certain cultures for a variety of reasons are behind the times and haven't had the right opportunity?


BTW, I'm a sitll a nomad...of the wild Eastern Washington steppes.

[Chizzang]

There are men in the house of Saudi who's grandfathers were Nomadic Tribes rulers - I don't know about you but my grandfather worked for the railroad here in the USA

do you get it..? Recently descended - like - family pictures - Lawrence of Arabia

Were you not just arguing that everybody is privvy to democracy and some have chosen otherwise? Or are you willing to admit that certain cultures for a variety of reasons are behind the times and haven't had the right opportunity?


BTW, I'm a sitll a nomad...of the wild Eastern Washington steppes.

Again: and again and again...
Just because YOU think Democracy is the height of civilization you think that if somebody chooses something else they're "behind"

Native Americans had probably the "BEST" system - and it was not a democracy...
That's my opinion: Now everybody on earth that doesn't use the Native American system of organization in my opinion is "behind the times"

Americans have typically one idea about Politics and that singular idea is drilled into us daily in grade school thru college... we're trained to believe that OUR system is simply "the greatest system"

It's a great big world... with a long history - America in 500 years might be considered a funny history class joke - compared to Rome or Greece or Persia

[Ivytalk]

There are men in the house of Saudi who's grandfathers were Nomadic Tribes rulers - I don't know about you but my grandfather worked for the railroad here in the USA

do you get it..? Recently descended - like - family pictures - Lawrence of Arabia

Were you not just arguing that everybody is privvy to democracy and some have chosen otherwise? Or are you willing to admit that certain cultures for a variety of reasons are behind the times and haven't had the right opportunity?


BTW, I'm a sitll a nomad...of the wild Eastern Washington steppes.

I like it...better than "Eagles." What logo would be on the new helmet? A cossack?

[kalm]

Were you not just arguing that everybody is privvy to democracy and some have chosen otherwise? Or are you willing to admit that certain cultures for a variety of reasons are behind the times and haven't had the right opportunity?


BTW, I'm a sitll a nomad...of the wild Eastern Washington steppes.

Again: and again and again...
Just because YOU think Democracy is the height of civilization you think that if somebody chooses something else they're "behind"

Native Americans had probably the "BEST" system - and it was not a democracy...
That's my opinion: Now everybody on earth that doesn't use the Native American system of organization in my opinion is "behind the times"

Americans have typically one idea about Politics and that singular idea is drilled into us daily in grade school thru college... we're trained to believe that OUR system is simply "the greatest system"

It's a great big world... with a long history - America in 500 years might be considered a funny history class joke - compared to Rome or Greece or Persia

Of course its just my opinion. I'm a cynic, which means I believe in egalitarianism and mistrust man's intentions. From that perspective I think Democracy is the best system. Someone who doesn't value equality and human rights but does enjoy the trains being on time or religious fundamentalism might think Mussolini and the Imams had it right.

We're talking past each other a bit here and i do I agree with much of what you're saying.

BTW, aren't the six tribes of th Iroquis confederacy supposedly the oldest democracy on earth?

[kalm]

Were you not just arguing that everybody is privvy to democracy and some have chosen otherwise? Or are you willing to admit that certain cultures for a variety of reasons are behind the times and haven't had the right opportunity?


BTW, I'm a sitll a nomad...of the wild Eastern Washington steppes.

I like it...better than "Eagles." What logo would be on the new helmet? A cossack?

The screaming nomads or the fighting steppes?


Perhaps a sage brush plant, an old barn, a bushel of wheat.

[AZGrizFan]

But do they have a choice? It's also not a coincidence that these nations are almost always patriarchies. What would happen if the women folk, 50% of the population, got all uppity and had a say?

That's been my point all along - if they get organized - they can effect great change (PERIOD)
a great book was written where a large number of "over throws" were compared and documented

The net result was: 4 generations of organization ( about 60 to 75 years) and any Government can be toppled

And any time Iraqi's "organized" while Sadaam was in power, the result was a mass grave somewhere. Perhaps they weren't "interested in democracy". They just wanted their 72 virgins earlier rather than later?

[AZGrizFan]

It's a great big world... with a long history - America in 500 years might be considered a funny history class joke - compared to Rome or Greece or Persia

The direction we're headed, that's almost a certainty.

[AZGrizFan]

I'll read a book as soon as clitorus answers my question: How can you make the ridiculous claim that people have "no interest in democracy" when they've never been exposed to it?

He equates lack of action against the government with approval for their system of government.

The two are not necessarily related.

The same can be said of your beliefs. You have never lived in a communist country, but you feel absolutely certain you want no part of it.

I'm not a big fan of bread lines, inferior EVERYTHING, and Gestapo visits in the middle of the night.

I don't need to eat a bucket of shit to know that I won't like it.

[Chizzang]

The same can be said of your beliefs. You have never lived in a communist country, but you feel absolutely certain you want no part of it.

I'm not a big fan of bread lines, inferior EVERYTHING, and Gestapo visits in the middle of the night.

I don't need to eat a bucket of shit to know that I won't like it.

And most Arabs claim our version of a Republic is in fact to them a bucket of shiit...

[AZGrizFan]

I'm not a big fan of bread lines, inferior EVERYTHING, and Gestapo visits in the middle of the night.

I don't need to eat a bucket of shit to know that I won't like it.

And most Arabs claim our version of a Republic is in fact to them a bucket of shiit...

Yet they come here in droves. Go figure, huh?

[Skjellyfetti]

And most Arabs claim our version of a Republic is in fact to them a bucket of shiit...

Yet they come here in droves. Go figure, huh?

And most of them settling here come from the most democratic country in the region.

[AZGrizFan]

Yet they come here in droves. Go figure, huh?

And most of them settling here come from the most democratic country in the region.

You mean the same one that produces most of the terrorists?

[travelinman67]

Going back to your original point. I think self determination, egalitarianism, upward mobility, cooperation...democracy are very strong human impulses perhaps partly innate but definetly learned throughout the ages as man progresses. People don't simply chose a life of indentured servitude and living under draconian laws like we see in the theocracies of the muslim world.

So I've got to side with Z on this one.

No they don't chose that - but India had (and still has to a degree a class system) and they for some unknown reason - even now functioning under The Republic of India and calling itself a Union of Government the people still cling to a class system

Free peoples in a free country - with a republic as a political format - still choose a "class system" to govern themselves in their own communities...

explain that..?

There are cultures in this world that do not hold the notion of Democracy as inherently valuable

You're stepping outside the ring to dodge the punch, Hippie. The issue was Democracy, yet you cite a Republic as an example of a "peoples" voluntarily opting to (create) and live under a "class system".

As I KNOW YOU KNOW, a Republic is not equivalent to a Democracy. Merely classifying a govt. as a Republic because it's foundation incorporates SOME portion of public/popular control or influence, does not mitigate the possibility (probability) that an oligarchic core still controls the power (and thus, the power structure).

Acknowledging this fact, helps explain the majority of "problems" which arise within Democracies.

Kalm's recognition of an "innate" motivation of self governance, akin to man's "innate" need to evolve, is a succinct explanation (and astute understanding of) what AZ is attempting to articulate.

As much as you feel I and the conservatives "knee-jerk" conservatism philosophy, and consequently jade (pollute) our perception of politics, I believe your cynicism of man jades your ability to perceive the nobler "natural laws" which motivate man's actions. What concerns me, is that as well read as you are, I believe your cynicism derives more from popular media than historical analysis.

BTW...I picked up Kagan's "The Peloponnesian War" a number of years ago while on the road looking for "motel reading"...dreadfully boring and unenlightening. I'm not 'dissing your assertion that an understanding of the major conflicts/revolts is necessary to fully understand the causes (and hence, man's "social" needs), merely remarking that an understanding of world history is not a requirement to connoiter with an understanding of our "natural" governmental "needs" (as demonstrated by Kalm's observations).

[AZGrizFan]

Clitorus, what T-Man is trying to say is you're a blowhard always trying to impress people with big words and long, rambling sentences.