Suggested Reading for AZGF...

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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
Name me one example of an educated nation where men and women have equal rights that has chosen anything but democracy.
Not everybody believes in "equal rights"
in fact Equal Rights is as ancient as "Democracy and republic" and hasn't exactly cought on like wild fire or anything... it's a rare belief

I would argue that fewer humans feel that equal rights are important than the notion of a Republic or a democracy...


:nod:
Once again: You eqate NOT HAVING equal rights with not BELIEVING in equal rights. :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

You're hopeless.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Not everybody believes in "equal rights"
in fact Equal Rights is as ancient as "Democracy and republic" and hasn't exactly cought on like wild fire or anything... it's a rare belief

I would argue that fewer humans feel that equal rights are important than the notion of a Republic or a democracy...


:nod:
Once again: You eqate NOT HAVING equal rights with not BELIEVING in equal rights. :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

You're hopeless.
Once again you show that you have an extremely low reading comprehension level... :rofl:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote: Once again: You eqate NOT HAVING equal rights with not BELIEVING in equal rights. :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

You're hopeless.
Once again you show that you have an extremely low reading comprehension level... :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are such a fucking Harvard elitist. They would be VERY proud. :coffee:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Once again you show that you have an extremely low reading comprehension level... :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are such a fucking Harvard elitist. They would be VERY proud. :coffee:
You know AZ
Of all the frivolous debates we've had - and we've had so many - this has been by far my favorite...


:mrgreen:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by D1B »

Chizzang wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are such a fucking Harvard elitist. They would be VERY proud. :coffee:
You know AZ
Of all the frivolous debates we've had - and we've had so many - this has been by far my favorite...


:mrgreen:
Ironic, cuz Z wasted your Polo stenchin weak ass. :nod:
"Sarah Palin absolutely blew AWAY the audience tonight. If there was any doubt as to whether she was savvy enough, tough enough or smart enough to carry the mantle of Vice President, she put those fears to rest tonight. She took on Barack Obama DIRECTLY on every issue and exposed... She did it with warmth and humor, and came across as the every-person....it's becoming mroe and more clear that she was a genius pick for McCain."

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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AK Lurker »

Chizzang wrote:
travelinman67 wrote: You're stepping outside the ring to dodge the punch, Hippie. The issue was Democracy, yet you cite a Republic as an example of a "peoples" voluntarily opting to (create) and live under a "class system".

As I KNOW YOU KNOW, a Republic is not equivalent to a Democracy. Merely classifying a govt. as a Republic because it's foundation incorporates SOME portion of public/popular control or influence, does not mitigate the possibility (probability) that an oligarchic core still controls the power (and thus, the power structure).

Acknowledging this fact, helps explain the majority of "problems" which arise within Democracies.

Kalm's recognition of an "innate" motivation of self governance, akin to man's "innate" need to evolve, is a succinct explanation (and astute understanding of) what AZ is attempting to articulate.

As much as you feel I and the conservatives "knee-jerk" conservatism philosophy, and consequently jade (pollute) our perception of politics, I believe your cynicism of man jades your ability to perceive the nobler "natural laws" which motivate man's actions. What concerns me, is that as well read as you are, I believe your cynicism derives more from popular media than historical analysis.
I was using Republic and Democracy as equivalents because AZGF has no idea what form of Government Rome or Greece or the Iroquois Confederacy used :nod:

second:
This debate isn't about "the problems that arise within a Democracy" it's about "imposing or giving away democracy" as a form of government to people who aren't asking for it...

third:
The ridiculous idea that we all - humans on earth - as we evolve, strive to build a democratic society as an innate response to cultural growth, particularly our American branded version of democracy is overt "American anthropomorphism"

Sure it's been successful for us and it's worked great for us... but that's where that whole things needs to stop and we need to actually look around

and fourth - your assertion that I'm cynical and responding to popular media... :rofl:
I don't even have my TV plugged in and I don't read magazines... what popular media..?

I read more than the average America watches TV - and the average American watches 4 hours a day..! and I'm not reading "popular media"... it is far more likely that you are controlled by your preferred media delivery system than I... that I'm certain of

:coffee:





I read too, and I enjoy reading you all......but this word threw either an aspirin tablet fastball past me or a hangin curve.....shouldn't it have been "ethnocentrism" ?

If so, makes more sense to me. Couldn't detect any anthropomorphism. Or any reason to attribute human like characteristics to innanimate objects.


FWIW This is the greatest form of affordable entertainment I have seen, since those giant laser disc movie thingies my moms used to rent from the library when she snuck out for her weekly dose of Black Velvet and Winstons.

I just want to make sure I am pickin up what you are puttin down.

Carry on.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AK Lurker »

Pardon the digression.

Suggested readings-

On History
Howard Zinn
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by travelinman67 »

AK Lurker wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I was using Republic and Democracy as equivalents because AZGF has no idea what form of Government Rome or Greece or the Iroquois Confederacy used :nod:

second:
This debate isn't about "the problems that arise within a Democracy" it's about "imposing or giving away democracy" as a form of government to people who aren't asking for it...

third:
The ridiculous idea that we all - humans on earth - as we evolve, strive to build a democratic society as an innate response to cultural growth, particularly our American branded version of democracy is overt "American anthropomorphism"

Sure it's been successful for us and it's worked great for us... but that's where that whole things needs to stop and we need to actually look around

and fourth - your assertion that I'm cynical and responding to popular media... :rofl:
I don't even have my TV plugged in and I don't read magazines... what popular media..?

I read more than the average America watches TV - and the average American watches 4 hours a day..! and I'm not reading "popular media"... it is far more likely that you are controlled by your preferred media delivery system than I... that I'm certain of

:coffee:





I read too, and I enjoy reading you all......but this word threw either an aspirin tablet fastball past me or a hangin curve.....shouldn't it have been "ethnocentrism" ?

If so, makes more sense to me. Couldn't detect any anthropomorphism. Or any reason to attribute human like characteristics to innanimate objects.


FWIW This is the greatest form of affordable entertainment I have seen, since those giant laser disc movie thingies my moms used to rent from the library when she snuck out for her weekly dose of Black Velvet and Winstons.

I just want to make sure I am pickin up what you are puttin down.

Carry on.
In all fairness to Hippie, I've been attempting to impart anthropomorphic change upon him for the past few years...

:coffee:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AK Lurker »

T.

Don't ever, and I repeat "ever", try to change a hippy.

Nonetheless, any luck?
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by travelinman67 »

AK Lurker wrote:T.

Don't ever, and I repeat "ever", try to change a hippy.

Nonetheless, any luck?
I do it for sport.

I'm actually a FOH (Friend of Hippie).

With CS's Hippie, he's a complex object. Gifted right brain struggling to survive in a left brain life (...don't you shake your head, Hippie...you know that's your psyche defined.).

A little background, AK...

...Hippie struggles to preserve compassion within the context of an all consuming cynicism.

Difficult for an average person to accomplish...

...but for a well educated liberal who bought into the notion of the "modern man"...

...as likely to occcur as turning water into wine.

:roll:




...I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

Let me know when my psych evaluation is over so we can get back to debating the issue :mrgreen:

1) Can America distribute Democracy like coca-cola
2) Is American democracy the apex of human civilization

T-man
Because I'm not certain that American Democracy is any more important than Japanese Meiji Imperialism or Persian Median Empiricism doesn't necessarily mean I'm a cynic - in fact - I believe I'm quite optimistic in regards to most things of this nature...

Our countries 250 years have been impressive

But when you study dynasties and Empires that spanned in some cases a thousand years and covered 1/2 the globe you kinda gotta scratch your head a little bit when every Republican in this country thinks we're the bees knees and that we're now "king Shit" and will henceforth be distilling and distributing America Democracy - especially to the peoples of the world who aren't smart enough to know they want it... just because they don't know they want it - doesn't mean they don't want it... Ask AZ - that's his answer to everything - the assumption that the rest of the world is as stupid and uneducated as your average American...

:rofl:

The arrogance and complete lack of historical perspective shouldn't be surprising
Ask your average American 10 questions about our own history - you'll get some pretty hysterical answers and that's not cynical that's just the way it is...

:coffee:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:Let me know when my psych evaluation is over so we can get back to debating the issue :mrgreen:

1) Can America distribute Democracy like coca-cola
2) Is American democracy the apex of human civilization

T-man
Because I'm not certain that American Democracy is any more important than Japanese Meiji Imperialism or Persian Median Empiricism doesn't necessarily mean I'm a cynic - in fact - I believe I'm quite optimistic in regards to most things of this nature...

Our countries 250 years have been impressive

But when you study dynasties and Empires that spanned in some cases a thousand years and covered 1/2 the globe you kinda gotta scratch your head a little bit when every Republican in this country thinks we're the bees knees and that we're now "king Shit" and will henceforth be distilling and distributing America Democracy - especially to the peoples of the world who aren't smart enough to know they want it... just because they don't know they want it - doesn't mean they don't want it... Ask AZ - that's his answer to everything - the assumption that the rest of the world is as stupid and uneducated as your average American...

:rofl:

The arrogance and complete lack of historical perspective shouldn't be surprising
Ask your average American 10 questions about our own history - you'll get some pretty hysterical answers and that's not cynical that's just the way it is...

:coffee:
a) Try not to speak in absolutes. They absolutely DESTROY any shred of credibility you may think you have left.
b) Try not to put words in peoples' mouths...takes that shredded credibility and stomps it into a mudhole. There's a vast gulf of difference between not being exposed to something and stupidity. Those are YOUR words, not mine.
c) Try actually UNDERSTANDING what I'm saying, instead of just bastardizing it to fit your own Harvard educated, liberal elitist mentality.

Once you've accomplished those three things, get back to me. Until then, you're about as important here as Douche 1 Bag. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by houndawg »

Chizzang wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
[youtube][/youtube]

The trouble is you have No Point..?
I've made my point - HELL history proves my point over and over again

Can you name an example where the United States inserts a democracy where none existed before and it is still the existing political structure in place today...?

:coffee:
Liberia?
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by travelinman67 »

Chizzang wrote:But when you study dynasties and Empires that spanned in some cases a thousand years and covered 1/2 the globe you kinda gotta scratch your head a little bit when every Republican in this country thinks we're the bees knees and that we're now "king Shit" and will henceforth be distilling and distributing America Democracy - especially to the peoples of the world who aren't smart enough to know they want it... just because they don't know they want it - doesn't mean they don't want it... Ask AZ - that's his answer to everything - the assumption that the rest of the world is as stupid and uneducated as your average American...
...so, all the third world countries that have ethnic cleansing to preserve totalitarian govts...

...they allow it due to their enlightenment?

Stew on this.

Mythos vs Logos. The major difference between Eastern and Western civilization is our epistemology. While the West utilizes a logical, rational form of deductive learning, the East (Islamic/Asian/totalitarian govts.) utilizes the form of mythological learning...repeating and passing down "knowledge" from prior generations...often information so nonsensical it's laughable. To protect itself, those societies incorporate religion into their supposed govts (learning methods), which allows the govt. to "sanctify" itself.
Introduction of Western "logos" method, jeopardizes the existing power framework, which is the principal reason the West has been vilified. It's not really about religion...it's about power.

So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by native »

travelinman67 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:But when you study dynasties and Empires that spanned in some cases a thousand years and covered 1/2 the globe you kinda gotta scratch your head a little bit when every Republican in this country thinks we're the bees knees and that we're now "king Shit" and will henceforth be distilling and distributing America Democracy - especially to the peoples of the world who aren't smart enough to know they want it... just because they don't know they want it - doesn't mean they don't want it... Ask AZ - that's his answer to everything - the assumption that the rest of the world is as stupid and uneducated as your average American...
...so, all the third world countries that have ethnic cleansing to preserve totalitarian govts...

...they allow it due to their enlightenment?

Stew on this.

Mythos vs Logos. The major difference between Eastern and Western civilization is our epistemology. While the West utilizes a logical, rational form of deductive learning, the East (Islamic/Asian/totalitarian govts.) utilizes the form of mythological learning...repeating and passing down "knowledge" from prior generations...often information so nonsensical it's laughable. To protect itself, those societies incorporate religion into their supposed govts (learning methods), which allows the govt. to "sanctify" itself.
Introduction of Western "logos" method, jeopardizes the existing power framework, which is the principal reason the West has been vilified. It's not really about religion...it's about power.

So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.
Cleets routinely ignores or downplays the dead bodies created by totalitarian regimes and makes up exaggerated atrocities committed by Americans. He holds perfection us as the standard for the America he hates, and makes every excuse in the book for those who oppose us.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

native wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:
...so, all the third world countries that have ethnic cleansing to preserve totalitarian govts...

...they allow it due to their enlightenment?

Stew on this.

Mythos vs Logos. The major difference between Eastern and Western civilization is our epistemology. While the West utilizes a logical, rational form of deductive learning, the East (Islamic/Asian/totalitarian govts.) utilizes the form of mythological learning...repeating and passing down "knowledge" from prior generations...often information so nonsensical it's laughable. To protect itself, those societies incorporate religion into their supposed govts (learning methods), which allows the govt. to "sanctify" itself.
Introduction of Western "logos" method, jeopardizes the existing power framework, which is the principal reason the West has been vilified. It's not really about religion...it's about power.

So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.
Cleets routinely ignores or downplays the dead bodies created by totalitarian regimes and makes up exaggerated atrocities committed by Americans. He holds perfection us as the standard for the America he hates, and makes every excuse in the book for those who oppose us.

Ah.. yes the old "he hates America" routine... Glenn Beck is in the house :rofl:
Asking a child to do his homework and mow the lawn... is obviously "Hating the child"

:rofl:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

travelinman67 wrote:


So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.
Yeah... Team America Republicanism
It's our job to overthrow ALL all forms of Totalitarianism and substitute if (usually for a puppet) self appointed inside guy we can control

especially when there's a military advantage (or oil) at stake

T-man I'd probably be on your side on this
had we not been through this badly so many times or so transparently - I know you believe everything Dick Cheney says... I mean after all we'll probably be greeted like liberators right..?
A fresh wave of optimism will span the globe - We're really just trying to help

Oh... Oops I'm hating America again - because I expect us to be honorable and forthright that makes me the enemy of America I guess

:mrgreen:

Did you know that 60% of Americans are over weight..!!! 60%..!!!!
but since I hate America - that comment will be seen as "my problem" not America's problem
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:


So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.
Yeah... Team America Republicanism
It's our job to overthrow ALL all forms of Totalitarianism and substitute if (usually for a puppet) self appointed inside guy we can control

especially when there's a military advantage (or oil) at stake

T-man I'd probably be on your side on this
had we not been through this badly so many times or so transparently - I know you believe everything Dick Cheney says... I mean after all we'll probably be greeted like liberators right..?
A fresh wave of optimism will span the globe - We're really just trying to help

Oh... Oops I'm hating America again - because I expect us to be honorable and forthright that makes me the enemy of America I guess
You know what's alternately hilarious and frustrating as HELL when "debating" with you? YOU NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION? You'd be a perfect politician....just continually evading the point and throwing out your own talking points in response to being pinned in the corner.

Can't answer the question? Dodge and evade by changing the argument. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's fucking hilarious to watch. :nod: :nod:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Yeah... Team America Republicanism
It's our job to overthrow ALL all forms of Totalitarianism and substitute if (usually for a puppet) self appointed inside guy we can control

especially when there's a military advantage (or oil) at stake

T-man I'd probably be on your side on this
had we not been through this badly so many times or so transparently - I know you believe everything Dick Cheney says... I mean after all we'll probably be greeted like liberators right..?
A fresh wave of optimism will span the globe - We're really just trying to help

Oh... Oops I'm hating America again - because I expect us to be honorable and forthright that makes me the enemy of America I guess
You know what's alternately hilarious and frustrating as HELL when "debating" with you? YOU NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION? You'd be a perfect politician....just continually evading the point and throwing out your own talking points in response to being pinned in the corner.

Can't answer the question? Dodge and evade by changing the argument. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's fucking hilarious to watch. :nod: :nod:

I've got three people posting me questions...
What question would you like answered.?
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Cleets, you are getting your ass kicked on this one because you are getting lost in the details.

Just because people don't choose democracy doesn't mean they don't want to...and it certainly doesn't mean that other people don't recognize that democracy isn't the best form of government.

Gotta' pick up my son, but T-man gets the award for the most intelligent posting.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Grizalltheway »

Cluck U wrote:Cleets, you are getting your ass kicked on this one because you are getting lost in the details.

Just because people don't choose democracy doesn't mean they don't want to...and it certainly doesn't mean that other people don't recognize that democracy isn't the best form of government.

Gotta' pick up my son, but T-man gets the award for the most intelligent posting.
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
You know what's alternately hilarious and frustrating as HELL when "debating" with you? YOU NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION? You'd be a perfect politician....just continually evading the point and throwing out your own talking points in response to being pinned in the corner.

Can't answer the question? Dodge and evade by changing the argument. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's fucking hilarious to watch. :nod: :nod:

I've got three people posting me questions...
What question would you like answered.?
It's hard to say because you make a discussion so damned hard to follow. :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

I've got three people posting me questions...
What question would you like answered.?
It's hard to say because you make a discussion so damned hard to follow. :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:

It's been really entertaining for me...
And as I suspected - All of the conservative posters believe NO MATTER WHAT that people all want democracy - even if those people say they don't want it or select a different form or succeed or toil under other circumstances... it can all somehow be neatly rolled up into one solution

which proves my original point:
American Conservatives as a group believe that we can (and should) give democracy to the rest of the globe... even if we have to give it to them by bombing them

:nod:

which was the only point I think I was trying to make...
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Cluck U wrote:Cleets, you are getting your ass kicked on this one because you are getting lost in the details.

Just because people don't choose democracy doesn't mean they don't want to...and it certainly doesn't mean that other people don't recognize that democracy isn't the best form of government.

Gotta' pick up my son, but T-man gets the award for the most intelligent posting.
Good to know, George Will! :roll:
You're welcome. :thumb: Write me anytime and I will guide you safely to reality. :nod:

Ask my wife...I can throw out words with the best of them, but sometimes you have to cut out the garbage and get to the point. With any type of government, it is always about the power. Ordinary people are just sheep because they learn to live and die under all types of government. They are indifferent for the most part. But if you ask someone if they WANT to have some say in their government (as part of a democracy, for instance), the answer from all but the lazy would be, "yes".
These signatures have a 500 character limit?

What if I have more personalities than that?
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Re: Suggested Reading for AZGF...

Post by Grizalltheway »

Cluck U wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Good to know, George Will! :roll:
You're welcome. :thumb: Write me anytime and I will guide you safely to reality. :nod:

Ask my wife...I can throw out words with the best of them, but sometimes you have to cut out the garbage and get to the point. With any type of government, it is always about the power. Ordinary people are just sheep because they learn to live and die under all types of government. They are indifferent for the most part. But if you ask someone if they WANT to have some say in their government (as part of a democracy, for instance), the answer from all but the lazy would be, "yes".
Agreed 100% on that BUT, like cleets said, it just isn't feasible for us to traipse around the world giving democracy to people through force; any fool can see that.
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