Suggested Reading for AZGF...

[AZGrizFan]

It's hard to say because you make a discussion so damned hard to follow.

It's been really entertaining for me...
And as I suspected - All of the conservative posters believe NO MATTER WHAT that people all want democracy - even if those people say they don't want it or select a different form or succeed or toil under other circumstances... it can all somehow be neatly rolled up into one solution

which proves my original point:
American Conservatives as a group believe that we can (and should) give democracy to the rest of the globe... even if we have to give it to them by bombing them



which was the only point I think I was trying to make...

There you go AGAIN, speaking in absolutes. I've not seen ONE "coservative' poster here claim that they believe NO MATTER WHAT that people all want democracy. Nor have I or any other conservative poster stated that it has to be an American form of democracy. And you're the ONLY one who keeps insisting that OUR viewpoint is to carpet bomb them into democracy.

I've simply stated all along that your statement that not everyone wants democracy because if they did they'd have it is a misguided conception based on your erroneous belief that if people just wanted it bad enough they'd all revolt and DO it. Many, MANY countries MAY want and prosper under some form of democratic government but we'll never know because they instead suffer under totalitarian regimes/dictatorships that silence and kill any threat to their power.

Wait, I remember your argument now....it should only take 3-4 more generations and if they wanted democracy they'll have it, right? And in the meantime, probably only 500,000-750,000 innocent civilians will be hauled away in the middle of the night and executed while trying to bring about change.

[AZGrizFan]

You're welcome. Write me anytime and I will guide you safely to reality.

Ask my wife...I can throw out words with the best of them, but sometimes you have to cut out the garbage and get to the point. With any type of government, it is always about the power. Ordinary people are just sheep because they learn to live and die under all types of government. They are indifferent for the most part. But if you ask someone if they WANT to have some say in their government (as part of a democracy, for instance), the answer from all but the lazy would be, "yes".

Agreed 100% on that BUT, like cleets said, it just isn't feasible for us to traipse around the world giving democracy to people through force; any fool can see that.

Only Clitorus believes that THAT is the convervative's position.

[YoUDeeMan]

It's been really entertaining for me...
And as I suspected - All of the conservative posters believe NO MATTER WHAT that people all want democracy - even if those people say they don't want it or select a different form or succeed or toil under other circumstances... it can all somehow be neatly rolled up into one solution

which proves my original point:
American Conservatives as a group believe that we can (and should) give democracy to the rest of the globe... even if we have to give it to them by bombing them



which was the only point I think I was trying to make...

Actually, you have no point...except that you have a need to bunch conservatives into a neat little ball so you can say you understand them...even if it's only for fun. Odd for a so called educated person.

I can be described as a conservative...and I don't give a flying hoot about exporting democracy. Frankly, most true conservatives that I know don't care about the ideological make up of the rest of the world's governments either. We just want the ability to make more money. Dictators have done a good job of shelling out their nation's resources at a frighteningly efficient clip so why should any conservatives or liberals (they like making money, too) want to export democracy if it isn't needed?

Everyone has their price...take a look at the liberal/conservative/democratic/theocratic/dictator leaders and you'll see no difference in their real desires. The "politics" part is just window dressing. Heck, take a look at your average person...they have a price too, they just undervalue themselves versus the more disciplined people.

In the end though, most people want some say in their lives...even if it is an illusion of power.

[Chizzang]

Only Clitorus believes that THAT is the convervative's position.

I can only base it on what people say and who they support and their actions politically...
You AZGF - VERY STRONGLY supported McSAme and his 100 years in Iraq philosophy - you should be the last person on this forum attempting to refute what you voted to sustain...

you embody the very claim that I make

[AZGrizFan]

Only Clitorus believes that THAT is the convervative's position.

I can only base it on what people say and who they support and their actions politically...
You AZGF - VERY STRONGLY supported McSAme and his 100 years in Iraq philosophy - you should be the last person on this forum attempting to refute what you voted to sustain...

you embody the very claim that I make

You know so little about me it's frightening. You cherry pick ONE position and assume that THAT is the reason I voted for McCain....you are such a sad, sad little man.

[Chizzang]

I can only base it on what people say and who they support and their actions politically...
You AZGF - VERY STRONGLY supported McSAme and his 100 years in Iraq philosophy - you should be the last person on this forum attempting to refute what you voted to sustain...

you embody the very claim that I make

You know so little about me it's frightening. You cherry pick ONE position and assume that THAT is the reason I voted for McCain....you are such a sad, sad little man.

You're not having as much fun with this as I'd hoped...
I like it better when you call me names and treat me like D1B rather than sulk away in defeat

[Col Hogan]

You know so little about me it's frightening. You cherry pick ONE position and assume that THAT is the reason I voted for McCain....you are such a sad, sad little man.

You're not having as much fun with this as I'd hoped...
I like it better when you call me names and treat me like D1B rather than sulk away in defeat

SMFH at Clingon, misrepresenting conservative positions...















Hey, that's fun....maybe I'll try it again...

[AZGrizFan]

You know so little about me it's frightening. You cherry pick ONE position and assume that THAT is the reason I voted for McCain....you are such a sad, sad little man.

You're not having as much fun with this as I'd hoped...
I like it better when you call me names and treat me like D1B rather than sulk away in defeat

Sulk away in defeat. That's funny! How can I be defeated when you've never posted a coherent thought or reply?

[Chizzang]

You're not having as much fun with this as I'd hoped...
I like it better when you call me names and treat me like D1B rather than sulk away in defeat

Sulk away in defeat. That's funny! How can I be defeated when you've never posted a coherent thought or reply?

[houndawg]

...so, all the third world countries that have ethnic cleansing to preserve totalitarian govts...

...they allow it due to their enlightenment?

Stew on this.

Mythos vs Logos. The major difference between Eastern and Western civilization is our epistemology. While the West utilizes a logical, rational form of deductive learning, the East (Islamic/Asian/totalitarian govts.) utilizes the form of mythological learning...repeating and passing down "knowledge" from prior generations...often information so nonsensical it's laughable. To protect itself, those societies incorporate religion into their supposed govts (learning methods), which allows the govt. to "sanctify" itself.
Introduction of Western "logos" method, jeopardizes the existing power framework, which is the principal reason the West has been vilified. It's not really about religion...it's about power.

So...

...in defending third world totalitarian sovereignties...

...you implicitly preserve the same form of mythologically based cultures found in Islamic (and Catholic) dominated banana republics.

Cleets routinely ignores or downplays the dead bodies created by totalitarian regimes and makes up exaggerated atrocities committed by Americans. He holds perfection us as the standard for the America he hates, and makes every excuse in the book for those who oppose us.

Right, Nathan, it's collateral damage when we create them.

[native]

Cleets routinely ignores or downplays the dead bodies created by totalitarian regimes and makes up exaggerated atrocities committed by Americans. He holds perfection us as the standard for the America he hates, and makes every excuse in the book for those who oppose us.

Right, Nathan, it's collateral damage when we create them.

I am not saying there is no collateral damage. I am saying that you refuse to count honestly.

[Chizzang]

Right, Nathan, it's collateral damage when we create them.

I am not saying there is no collateral damage. I am saying that you refuse to count honestly.

We'll leave you in charge of the honesty..

[D1B]

You know so little about me it's frightening. You cherry pick ONE position and assume that THAT is the reason I voted for McCain....you are such a sad, sad little man.

You're not having as much fun with this as I'd hoped...
I like it better when you call me names and treat me like D1B rather than sulk away in defeat

Blow me, Clits.

[native]

I am not saying there is no collateral damage. I am saying that you refuse to count honestly.

We'll leave you in charge of the honesty..

We are all responsible for honesty - you too, Cleets!

It is a great loss to us all that you do not feel ashamed for ouright lying about civilian casualties in Iraq and Vietnam.

It's never too late to do the right thing.

[kalm]

It's been really entertaining for me...
And as I suspected - All of the conservative posters believe NO MATTER WHAT that people all want democracy - even if those people say they don't want it or select a different form or succeed or toil under other circumstances... it can all somehow be neatly rolled up into one solution

which proves my original point:
American Conservatives as a group believe that we can (and should) give democracy to the rest of the globe... even if we have to give it to them by bombing them



which was the only point I think I was trying to make...

Actually, you have no point...except that you have a need to bunch conservatives into a neat little ball so you can say you understand them...even if it's only for fun. Odd for a so called educated person.

I can be described as a conservative...and I don't give a flying hoot about exporting democracy. Frankly, most true conservatives that I know don't care about the ideological make up of the rest of the world's governments either. We just want the ability to make more money. Dictators have done a good job of shelling out their nation's resources at a frighteningly efficient clip so why should any conservatives or liberals (they like making money, too) want to export democracy if it isn't needed?

Everyone has their price...take a look at the liberal/conservative/democratic/theocratic/dictator leaders and you'll see no difference in their real desires. The "politics" part is just window dressing. Heck, take a look at your average person...they have a price too, they just undervalue themselves versus the more disciplined people.

In the end though, most people want some say in their lives...even if it is an illusion of power.

That's the most refreshingly honest conservative comment I have read in a very long time.

[Chizzang]

We'll leave you in charge of the honesty..

We are all responsible for honesty - you too, Cleets!

It is a great loss to us all that you do not feel ashamed for ouright lying about civilian casualties in Iraq and Vietnam.

It's never too late to do the right thing.

I just use the Red Cross civilian casualty numbers...

[houndawg]

Right, Nathan, it's collateral damage when we create them.

I am not saying there is no collateral damage. I am saying that you refuse to count honestly.

And as usual you miss the point. You want to make it a numbers game, which even by your "honest" (i.e., government) figures show that we're way ahead in the killing innocent civilians game. Especially in the sub-category of killing innocent civilians in countries that did not attack us.

What number of civilian casualties do you consider to be the honest count in Iraq?

[AZGrizFan]

I am not saying there is no collateral damage. I am saying that you refuse to count honestly.

And as usual you miss the point. You want to make it a numbers game, which even by your "honest" (i.e., government) figures show that we're way ahead in the killing innocent civilians game. Especially in the sub-category of killing innocent civilians in countries that did not attack us.

What number of civilian casualties do you consider to be the honest count in Iraq?

3.

[YoUDeeMan]

I can be described as a conservative...and I don't give a flying hoot about exporting democracy. Frankly, most true conservatives that I know don't care about the ideological make up of the rest of the world's governments either. We just want the ability to make more money. Dictators have done a good job of shelling out their nation's resources at a frighteningly efficient clip so why should any conservatives or liberals (they like making money, too) want to export democracy if it isn't needed?

Everyone has their price...take a look at the liberal/conservative/democratic/theocratic/dictator leaders and you'll see no difference in their real desires. The "politics" part is just window dressing. Heck, take a look at your average person...they have a price too, they just undervalue themselves versus the more disciplined people.

In the end though, most people want some say in their lives...even if it is an illusion of power.

That's the most refreshingly honest conservative comment I have read in a very long time.

You forgot to bold the part about seeing no difference in any leader's desires. All leaders, including liberals, simply concern themselves with power and wealth. The liberal leaders just prefer to utilize more pawns in their game of chess...and the liberal lower class blind suckers eat it up.

[kalm]

That's the most refreshingly honest conservative comment I have read in a very long time.

You forgot to bold the part about seeing no difference in any leader's desires. All leaders, including liberals, simply concern themselves with power and wealth. The liberal leaders just prefer to utilize more pawns in their game of chess...and the liberal lower class blind suckers eat it up.

Ever heard of the tea party movement?

Liberals tend to effect positive change through government, conservatives tend to effect positive change through the private sector.

[BigSkyBears]

I'm pretty sure that AZ has read his fair share of Michener, so he's good to go

Got a funny James Michener story:
So when I was living in Baltimore the house we lived in had a small Study / Library that my dad used to sit in an read on weekends and after work... so for like 3 years a hard back copy of James Michener's epic tomb "Chesapeake" sat on a small reading table in the library...

years go by

One day:
Me:Hey Dad, why is that book always sitting there
Dad: Because I'm reading it
Me: It's been sitting there for three years
Dad: It's a long book


Later he admitted to A) Never finishing that book B) Hating James Michener

Hey now, Michener is a UNC alumn.

[AZGrizFan]

I read (and actually finished) Chesapeake. Tried a couple others (Hawaii, etc) but just couldn't bring myself to start at the big bang theory and move up through modern times in every single book.

[Ivytalk]

I read (and actually finished) Chesapeake. Tried a couple others (Hawaii, etc) but just couldn't bring myself to start at the big bang theory and move up through modern times in every single book.

Mrs. Ivy and I actually met Michener and his wife in the bar of a London hotel in 1987. Pleasant enough old guy. I didn't have the heart to tell him I'd never read any of his books, although my wife had tackled one or two.

There's a lot of great world literature in the 300-500 page range. You don't have to kill yourself reading Michener, Solzhenitsyn and the like.

[houndawg]

I read (and actually finished) Chesapeake. Tried a couple others (Hawaii, etc) but just couldn't bring myself to start at the big bang theory and move up through modern times in every single book.

Mrs. Ivy and I actually met Michener and his wife in the bar of a London hotel in 1987. Pleasant enough old guy. I didn't have the heart to tell him I'd never read any of his books, although my wife had tackled one or two.

There's a lot of great world literature in the 300-500 page range. You don't have to kill yourself reading Michener, Solzhenitsyn and the like.

If it's work to read Michener then you're reading the wrong Michener; his best stuff is a delight to read - Tales of the South Pacific, Centennial, The Source, The Drifters, Hawaii - that's the stuff.

[Wedgebuster]

UNC graduate, so of course, not everyone is capable of comprehending his pen.