Why the "recovery" is not translating into jobs.

[AZGrizFan]

Define "decent living"? I make a "decent living" and I didn't have to go to school for 8 years after college to do it. Again, where's the motivation? Also, unless this whole "single payer" plan is done in conjunction with massive tort reform it's all a pie-in-the-sky option anyway.

I fully expect US doctors to fight like hell for their large piece of the pie. But this is a big economic reset. Everyone is going to take a hit which is tough considering how greedy and materialistic we have become.

Yet somehow doctors in countries with single payer survive.

And yes tort reform is part of the problem. Perhaps the lawyers need to take a hit as well.

As a "non-doctor", I see absolutely NO incentive to give up 8-12 years of my wage-earning life just to be able to say I'm a doctor if all I'm going to make is a "decent living". No incentive. NONE. Same with attorneys (although I agree with you we probably need less attorneys). It's not about fighting "like hell for their large piece of the pie". Being a doctor means sacrificing years and years of your life to school/residency, not to mention doing something 99.9% of the population couldn't/wouldn't do for ANY amount of money (count me in THAT group). I've NEVER begrudged doctors the money they make.

Just don't get me started on the lawyers, though.

[Col Hogan]

But this is a big economic reset. Everyone is going to take a hit which is tough considering how greedy and materialistic we have become.

I always wonder when some writes "Everyone is going to take a hit" what hit the writer is going to take....they usually don't tell us that...

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

[AZGrizFan]

But this is a big economic reset. Everyone is going to take a hit which is tough considering how greedy and materialistic we have become.

I always wonder when some writes "Everyone is going to take a hit" what hit the writer is going to take....they usually don't tell us that...

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

The only people "taking a hit" are those who busted their ass and worked their way up a corporate ladder somewhere. You know....on the backs of the "little people".

[JMU DJ]

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

I don't know what the right answer is to the medical issues, but it's true... doctors are overpaid, and most of them deserved to be overpaid with the current state of affairs. The insurance premiums that some of these doctors have to pay to practice medicine can reach numbers that are well over what the average American makes per year. If the system is ever fixed, premiums should drop and thus doctors should be paid less. We pay our doctors the most (not by much over other countries with socialized medicine like France, England, etc) and also run a third in monies paid per GDP. If doctors have to pay less for insurance, doctors no longer require astronomical salaries to pay insurance. Is that really a hit or should they maintain their current salary just because that's what they've always made?


Some people shouldn't be doctors though... it's scary knowing some of these people who are becoming medical doctors... ask questions... always ask questions... and if you can't think of one, ask "why?"

[Col Hogan]

I always wonder when some writes "Everyone is going to take a hit" what hit the writer is going to take....they usually don't tell us that...

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

The only people "taking a hit" are those who busted their ass and worked their way up a corporate ladder somewhere. You know....on the backs of the "little people".

But....but...

I was one of those "little people" once...and now I help mentor them so that some day they can be where I am...









Oh, now I get it....they don't want to work to get there...they want what I have NOW!!!

[CID1990]

100% SERIOUS answer for AZGF

Take a walk through Wal-Mart and Target
Count the inventory on the shelves that's actually made in America... less than 5%

Go to the mall... do the same thing
and you'll find less than 15% USA made products

there's part of the problem...

Look around when you drive through town - where are the good jobs - are towns are full of fast food joints and shopping centers - we're a consumer based society....

That's accurate.

Let's not forget that manufacturing cheap rubber dog sh!t is not something Americans want to do. That's why we send those jobs overseas.

Yet, we claim that we need one million new Mexicans each year to come work those jobs in America that Americans do not want to do.

Ultimately we can make a circular argument all day long about the problem, but the way to fix it is to become less of a consumer society. If we remain that way, then we will have to import cheap labor, thus ultimately diluting what social homogeneity we have left, or we can export the jobs overseas, leaving nothing but a service and retail-based economy here in the States.

There WILL be a correction, though. Many Americans are going to have to work those jobs that nobody but Mexicans will work. We just have to resist the temptation to increase unemployment benefits to the point that will allow people to keep buying music on i-Tunes and rubber dog sh!t.

[kalm]

But this is a big economic reset. Everyone is going to take a hit which is tough considering how greedy and materialistic we have become.

I always wonder when some writes "Everyone is going to take a hit" what hit the writer is going to take....they usually don't tell us that...

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

Unlike most of my employees, I have already taken a substantial hit in pay. I'm ok with that, and things will turn around.

And for the record, I don't begrudge doctors or any profession that takes care of other people's shit (literally and figuratively). And yes Z, people willing to go to school for 8-12 years and work really long hours, and who are highly skilled should be payed well.

But it's all a matter of degrees, and just because you may not be interested in only a decent living for such hard work doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of capable others who are willing to do the job for less. Like I said, it's a reset - that's not saying we can't afford high salaries and rich people, perhaps just not quite as high or quite as rich.

I find this similar to the argument for Wall Street pay. BBBBBBut they are really smart, and if they don't get every last cent of their bonuses they will quit aaaand we will lose them.

[AZGrizFan]

I always wonder when some writes "Everyone is going to take a hit" what hit the writer is going to take....they usually don't tell us that...

Kalm, if Doctors are going to have to "take a hit"...as part of everybody, what hit are you going to take???

Inquiring minds, and all that...

Unlike most of my employees, I have already taken a substantial hit in pay. I'm ok with that, and things will turn around.

And for the record, I don't begrudge doctors or any profession that takes care of other people's shit (literally and figuratively). And yes Z, people willing to go to school for 8-12 years and work really long hours, and who are highly skilled should be payed well.

But it's all a matter of degrees, and just because you may not be interested in only a decent living for such hard work doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of capable others who are willing to do the job for less. Like I said, it's a reset - that's not saying we can't afford high salaries and rich people, perhaps just not quite as high or quite as rich.

I find this similar to the argument for Wall Street pay. BBBBBBut they are really smart, and if they don't get every last cent of their bonuses they will quit aaaand we will lose them.

Interesting perspective. It's my firm belief that the really GOOD and smart ones will leave. At least leave the profession (or never go into it). So what you're left with is the mediocre doctors who weren't capable of making more money somewhere else, in some other industry that hasn't been placed in the crosshairs yet. The REALLY smart ones will figure out they can't get rich being a doctor, so they'll go do something else where they CAN still get rich.

And, BINGO: We're left mostly with "others who are willing to do the job for less". Doesn't THAT just sound appealing....

edit: and the pay hit you've taken (based on your comments) is a TEMPORARY one. As is mine. The pay hit (or "reset" as you so politically correctly call it) we're asking those in the medical profession to take isn't temporary, nor is it small. What happens when (and if) they're asked (highly recommended by the government) to take a 50% cut in pay and they give back (or don't buy at all) all the cars, homes, 2nd homes, planes, etc., etc....banks get fucked, companies lay off people, etc., etc.

The consequence of unintended consequences....it's a frightening thought.

[kalm]

Unlike most of my employees, I have already taken a substantial hit in pay. I'm ok with that, and things will turn around.

And for the record, I don't begrudge doctors or any profession that takes care of other people's **** (literally and figuratively). And yes Z, people willing to go to school for 8-12 years and work really long hours, and who are highly skilled should be payed well.

But it's all a matter of degrees, and just because you may not be interested in only a decent living for such hard work doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of capable others who are willing to do the job for less. Like I said, it's a reset - that's not saying we can't afford high salaries and rich people, perhaps just not quite as high or quite as rich.

I find this similar to the argument for Wall Street pay. BBBBBBut they are really smart, and if they don't get every last cent of their bonuses they will quit aaaand we will lose them.

Interesting perspective. It's my firm belief that the really GOOD and smart ones will leave. At least leave the profession (or never go into it). So what you're left with is the mediocre doctors who weren't capable of making more money somewhere else, in some other industry that hasn't been placed in the crosshairs yet. The REALLY smart ones will figure out they can't get rich being a doctor, so they'll go do something else where they CAN still get rich.

And, BINGO: We're left mostly with "others who are willing to do the job for less". Doesn't THAT just sound appealing....

edit: and the pay hit you've taken (based on your comments) is a TEMPORARY one. As is mine. The pay hit (or "reset" as you so politically correctly call it) we're asking those in the medical profession to take isn't temporary, nor is it small. What happens when (and if) they're asked (highly recommended by the government) to take a 50% cut in pay and they give back (or don't buy at all) all the cars, homes, 2nd homes, planes, etc., etc....banks get ****, companies lay off people, etc., etc.

The consequence of unintended consequences....it's a frightening thought.

Good points and like I said I think we're arguing a matter of degree. I'd just like to see us defined a little less by how much money we make or feel we are entitled to make.

[travelinman67]

It has a lot to do with the fact that businesses are now running smarter and within their means. Which translates to fewer jobs.

HORSECRAP!!!!!!

slycat...you're blowing smoke out your ass. Business efficiency has NOTHING to do with the 9 million jobs eliminated due to economic contraction. There's no money being invested in our economy: That's the #1 reason, followed closely by a concerted effort by NIMBY's and environmentalists who've hijacked regional governments and the courts with the intent of not merely stopping new, but dismantling existing industry and infrastructures.

[travelinman67]

100% SERIOUS answer for AZGF

Take a walk through Wal-Mart and Target
Count the inventory on the shelves that's actually made in America... less than 5%

Go to the mall... do the same thing
and you'll find less than 15% USA made products

there's part of the problem...

Look around when you drive through town - where are the good jobs - are towns are full of fast food joints and shopping centers - we're a consumer based society....

...and...

(...finish the logic, Hippie.)

[AZGrizFan]

Good points and like I said I think we're arguing a matter of degree. I'd just like to see us defined a little less by how much money we make or feel we are entitled to make.

Why must YOU worry about how someone ELSE defines themself? If someone wants to define themself by how much money they make....I say knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how much charity work you do...knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how many supermodels you've slept with...I say knock yourself out. Seriously...what do I care?

The recent American trend to worry about what everybody ELSE is doing in America is alarming....and one of the biggest social problems we currently face.

[kalm]

Good points and like I said I think we're arguing a matter of degree. I'd just like to see us defined a little less by how much money we make or feel we are entitled to make.

Why must YOU worry about how someone ELSE defines themself? If someone wants to define themself by how much money they make....I say knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how much charity work you do...knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how many supermodels you've slept with...I say knock yourself out. Seriously...what do I care?

The recent American trend to worry about what everybody ELSE is doing in America is alarming....and one of the biggest social problems we currently face.

Well that's a classic left-right argument isn't it? Self interest versus collective good.

The answer like most other questions is probably somewhere in the middle. I do however believe that greed can be a damaging motiviation, and I'm speaking more to the national consciousness than what drives individuals.

Don't worry Z, under the Democratic Socialistic Libertatian Republic of Kalm, you would personally be able to define yourself however you'd like.

[AZGrizFan]

Why must YOU worry about how someone ELSE defines themself? If someone wants to define themself by how much money they make....I say knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how much charity work you do...knock yourself out! If you want to define yourself by how many supermodels you've slept with...I say knock yourself out. Seriously...what do I care?

The recent American trend to worry about what everybody ELSE is doing in America is alarming....and one of the biggest social problems we currently face.

Well that's a classic left-right argument isn't it? Self interest versus collective good.

The answer like most other questions is probably somewhere in the middle. I do however believe that greed can be a damaging motiviation, and I'm speaking more to the national consciousness than what drives individuals.

Don't worry Z, under the Democratic Socialistic Libertatian Republic of Kalm, you would personally be able to define yourself however you'd like.

And yet the lefties greedily lust after what they don't have.

[kalm]

Well that's a classic left-right argument isn't it? Self interest versus collective good.

The answer like most other questions is probably somewhere in the middle. I do however believe that greed can be a damaging motiviation, and I'm speaking more to the national consciousness than what drives individuals.

Don't worry Z, under the Democratic Socialistic Libertatian Republic of Kalm, you would personally be able to define yourself however you'd like.

And yet the lefties greedily lust after what they don't have.

Like George Soros, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet.

[AZGrizFan]

And yet the lefties greedily lust after what they don't have.

Like George Soros, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet.

I'm talking about the poor lefties.

[ASUMountaineer]

The only people "taking a hit" are those who busted their ass and worked their way up a corporate ladder somewhere. You know....on the backs of the "little people".

But....but...

I was one of those "little people" once...and now I help mentor them so that some day they can be where I am...









Oh, now I get it....they don't want to work to get there...they want what I have NOW!!!

Yeah, they have their parents to blame for that...you know, it's beat into us that "everyone is special," "everyone deserves the best," and "you get a prize for participating."

[travelinman67]

Well that's a classic left-right argument isn't it? Self interest versus collective good.

The answer like most other questions is probably somewhere in the middle. I do however believe that greed can be a damaging motiviation, and I'm speaking more to the national consciousness than what drives individuals.

Don't worry Z, under the Democratic Socialistic Libertatian Republic of Kalm, you would personally be able to define yourself however you'd like.

And yet the lefties greedily lust after what they don't have.

I noted the other day, that most of the Beemers, Benz and expensive cars I see on the road appear to be driven by trash and gang banger wannabees.

...of course, I'd wager most are receiving some form of govt. teat aid to cover food and housing...

...since most of their undeclared disposable income paid/pays for the car.

And most of the attorneys, business owners, financial industry people I know drive Hondas, pickups and minivans.

Coveting leads to "ghetto rich" syndrome.

When one seeks wealth then attempts to "show it", they are seeking "self respect". Self respect is not found through amassing wealth and material, but by one's accomplishments. Furthermore, those accomplishments (as a rule) require an element of generosity; either of wealth, time or knowledge.
Give back by teaching, building, creating jobs, developing business, helping others with less, even helping reform social/governmental systems crafted to benefit specific classes...in other words, open the door for someone not as fortunate as yourself.

..and at the end of the day, if you want to enjoy some champagne...

...do so in the privacy of your home, with the satisfaction knowing you helped someone else who oneday may also enjoy a glass of champagne in the privacy of their home.

[houndawg]

It has a lot to do with the fact that businesses are now running smarter and within their means. Which translates to fewer jobs.

HORSECRAP!!!!!!

slycat...you're blowing smoke out your ass. Business efficiency has NOTHING to do with the 9 million jobs eliminated due to economic contraction. There's no money being invested in our economy: That's the #1 reason, followed closely by a concerted effort by NIMBY's and environmentalists who've hijacked regional governments and the courts with the intent of not merely stopping new, but dismantling existing industry and infrastructures.

Yeah, NIMBYs and environmentalists, that's why Asia is kicking the economic bejeezus out of us.........

[dbackjon]

HORSECRAP!!!!!!

slycat...you're blowing smoke out your ass. Business efficiency has NOTHING to do with the 9 million jobs eliminated due to economic contraction. There's no money being invested in our economy: That's the #1 reason, followed closely by a concerted effort by NIMBY's and environmentalists who've hijacked regional governments and the courts with the intent of not merely stopping new, but dismantling existing industry and infrastructures.

Yeah, NIMBYs and environmentalists, that's why Asia is kicking the economic bejeezus out of us.........

Yes, we really need to have cadium and lead laced products...

What we need to do is make sure any product imported here is made to US environmental standards.

I prefer clean air, water, etc. Obviously you don't. Pathetic, really.

[houndawg]

Yeah, NIMBYs and environmentalists, that's why Asia is kicking the economic bejeezus out of us.........

Yes, we really need to have cadium and lead laced products...

What we need to do is make sure any product imported here is made to US environmental standards.

I prefer clean air, water, etc. Obviously you don't. Pathetic, really.

Obviously you don't know sarcasm when you read it.

[CID1990]

Yes, we really need to have cadium and lead laced products...

What we need to do is make sure any product imported here is made to US environmental standards.

I prefer clean air, water, etc. Obviously you don't. Pathetic, really.

Obviously you don't know sarcasm when you read it.

Or truth, facts, readin', writin', rithmatick....

[BDKJMU]

Congress doesn't have some giant vault that is filled with $ that just magically appears out of nowhere. Every dollar Congress spends must come from somewhere. That is taken out of the economy through either taxation or borrowing. No new spending power is created. Put simply, every dollar Congress puts into the economy must 1st be taxed or borrowed out of the economy.

If adding $1 billion would create 50k jobs in one depressed part of the economy, then losing $1 billion will cost roughly the same number of jobs in whatever part of the economy Congress took the funds from. It is a zero-sum transfer regardless of whether the unemployment rate is 5 percent or 50 percent.

That's why the 168 billion stimulus passed under Bush in 08' didn't create jobs, and thats why the 787 billion stimulus Congress passed about a year ago didn't create jobs, and that's why a 3rd stimulus won't create any jobs either.

[kalm]

And yet the lefties greedily lust after what they don't have.

I noted the other day, that most of the Beemers, Benz and expensive cars I see on the road appear to be driven by trash and gang banger wannabees.

...of course, I'd wager most are receiving some form of govt. teat aid to cover food and housing...

...since most of their undeclared disposable income paid/pays for the car.

And most of the attorneys, business owners, financial industry people I know drive Hondas, pickups and minivans.

Coveting leads to "ghetto rich" syndrome.

When one seeks wealth then attempts to "show it", they are seeking "self respect". Self respect is not found through amassing wealth and material, but by one's accomplishments. Furthermore, those accomplishments (as a rule) require an element of generosity; either of wealth, time or knowledge.
Give back by teaching, building, creating jobs, developing business, helping others with less, even helping reform social/governmental systems crafted to benefit specific classes...in other words, open the door for someone not as fortunate as yourself.

..and at the end of the day, if you want to enjoy some champagne...

...do so in the privacy of your home, with the satisfaction knowing you helped someone else who oneday may also enjoy a glass of champagne in the privacy of their home.

Drive by economics...Sweet!

[travelinman67]

I noted the other day, that most of the Beemers, Benz and expensive cars I see on the road appear to be driven by trash and gang banger wannabees.

...of course, I'd wager most are receiving some form of govt. teat aid to cover food and housing...

...since most of their undeclared disposable income paid/pays for the car.

And most of the attorneys, business owners, financial industry people I know drive Hondas, pickups and minivans.

Coveting leads to "ghetto rich" syndrome.

When one seeks wealth then attempts to "show it", they are seeking "self respect". Self respect is not found through amassing wealth and material, but by one's accomplishments. Furthermore, those accomplishments (as a rule) require an element of generosity; either of wealth, time or knowledge.
Give back by teaching, building, creating jobs, developing business, helping others with less, even helping reform social/governmental systems crafted to benefit specific classes...in other words, open the door for someone not as fortunate as yourself.

..and at the end of the day, if you want to enjoy some champagne...

...do so in the privacy of your home, with the satisfaction knowing you helped someone else who oneday may also enjoy a glass of champagne in the privacy of their home.

Drive by economics...Sweet!

The issue was greed and coveting, Numbnuts: Not economics.