Roe v Wade Anniversary

[Col Hogan]

Did the woman do something willingly to force the miscarriage??? Or did it happen for some natural reason???

You'll have to ask her.

But in all seriousness, there are too many scenarios to cover them all, so how can we have a blanket law?

It's really easy...if you agree that life begins at conception, a belief that more and more scientists are now putting forth...then the willful taking of a life is murder (or manslaughter, depending on the circumstances)

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]

"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]

"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html

[89Hen]

Nope. Hence the reason i don't think it should be outlawed. And you can't leave out my argument with regard to "mother in jeopardy". Sure, less than 1% (I'll take your word for it), but you've instantly criminalized that 1% for making a choice to save their own lives. How is forcing them to die to appease an arbitrary & indiscriminate number (days until birth, hours until birth, etc) not murder as well? & how do you know when a baby is one day from being born? There's no guarantees even if you induce labor. What if you induce labor & the baby dies during childbirth? Are they murderer's as well? You're right...you're not in a position to make that call....& outside of your immediate family, you never should be.....

1. Nobody has said there can't be circumstances for allowing the 0.08% of abortions that would result in the mother losing her life.

2. Inducing labor and a child dies? Not murder. You're trying to save a life, not end one. BTW, got any stats on that? You act as if there's not a self-defense clause in murder charges.

3. You didn't say whether you agreed with the 1 day old, the -1 day old and 8 month scenario.

[Appaholic]

It's really easy...if you agree that life begins at conception, a belief that more and more scientists are now putting forth...then the willful taking of a life is murder (or manslaughter, depending on the circumstances)

No matter the reason? So all who kill someone are murderer's based upon your definition....even soldiers...

[JoltinJoe]

How about aborting a fetus that will kill you if carried to term?

Less than 1% of all abortions, and Col and I haven't even said we'd carry it that far.

Prior to Roe, even in states which outlawed abortion, the woman could have an abortion if a doctor determined that the abortion was medically necessary to save the woman's life.

From the majority opinion in Roe:

Texas first enacted a criminal abortion statute in 1854. Texas Laws 1854, c. 49, 1, set forth in 3 H. Gammel, Laws of Texas 1502 (1898). This was soon modified into language that has remained substantially unchanged to the present time. See Texas Penal Code of 1857, c. 7, Arts. 531-536; G. Paschal, Laws of Texas, Arts. 2192-2197 (1866); Texas Rev. Stat., c. 8, Arts. 536-541 (1879); Texas Rev. Crim. Stat., Arts. 1071-1076 (1911). The final article in each of these compilations provided the same exception, as does the present Article 1196, for an abortion by "medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother." 3 [410 U.S. 113, 120]

[89Hen]

Unless it's zero, you've now made a criminal out of someone who is trying to save their own life...how do you reconcile your stance on pro-life with that?

Simple. Not illegal. Same as self-defense for murder or killing of others in war.

[Appaholic]

Nope. Hence the reason i don't think it should be outlawed. And you can't leave out my argument with regard to "mother in jeopardy". Sure, less than 1% (I'll take your word for it), but you've instantly criminalized that 1% for making a choice to save their own lives. How is forcing them to die to appease an arbitrary & indiscriminate number (days until birth, hours until birth, etc) not murder as well? & how do you know when a baby is one day from being born? There's no guarantees even if you induce labor. What if you induce labor & the baby dies during childbirth? Are they murderer's as well? You're right...you're not in a position to make that call....& outside of your immediate family, you never should be.....

1. Nobody has said there can't be circumstances for allowing the 0.08% of abortions that would result in the mother losing her life.

2. Inducing labor and a child dies? Not murder. You're trying to save a life, not end one. BTW, got any stats on that? You act as if there's not a self-defense clause in murder charges.

3. You didn't say whether you agreed with the 1 day old, the -1 day old and 8 month scenario.

I'm sorry...when you stated that abortion is murder, i didn't think you would allow for those circumstances...how can you outlaw something but allow it in certain circumstances?

[Col Hogan]

It's really easy...if you agree that life begins at conception, a belief that more and more scientists are now putting forth...then the willful taking of a life is murder (or manslaughter, depending on the circumstances)

No matter the reason? So all who kill someone are murderer's based upon your definition....even soldiers...

No, because soldiers do not commit murder...under lawful orders...

[Appaholic]

Unless it's zero, you've now made a criminal out of someone who is trying to save their own life...how do you reconcile your stance on pro-life with that?

Simple. Not illegal. Sams as self-defense for murder or killing of others in war.

So...were going to put on trial every mother & doctor who determine that aborting a baby to save the mother's life was the correct course of action....oh, and every soldier as well....no wonder so many people go to law school...it looks to be a growth industry...

[89Hen]

I'm sorry...when you stated that abortion is murder, i didn't think you would allow for those circumstances...how can you outlaw something but allow it in certain circumstances?

Already said it three times. You pull a gun on me and threaten me, I can kill you. Not murder.

[93henfan]

No matter the reason? So all who kill someone are murderer's based upon your definition....even soldiers...

No, because soldiers do not commit murder...under lawful orders...

OK, that harkens back to my quick edit from earlier. Those lawful orders essentially state that beneficial (for the US) murder is not murder.

[89Hen]

So...were going to put on trial every mother & doctor who determine that aborting a baby to save the mother's life was the correct course of action

Nope. But you find a doctor that authorizes abortions at a higher rate than other OB-GYN... they will have to be investigated. AGAIN, you're talking about VERY rare cases.

[Appaholic]

No matter the reason? So all who kill someone are murderer's based upon your definition....even soldiers...

No, because soldiers do not commit murder...under lawful orders...

What about Dr's recommendation? Should we set up some sort of tribunal (A "GOD SQUAD" if you will) that can make that determination? Thought that's why dr's went to medical school....

[Appaholic]

So...were going to put on trial every mother & doctor who determine that aborting a baby to save the mother's life was the correct course of action

Nope. But you find a doctor that authorizes abortions at a higher rate than other OB-GYN... they will have to be investigated. AGAIN, you're talking about VERY rare cases.

So don't outlaw but leave it as an option to be decided by a Dr & patient on case-by-case....glad you agree with me....

[89Hen]

holic and 93, if you guys adhere to the "Pro-Choicers Guide to Arguing" my guess is you're next going to go the rape scenario.

[Col Hogan]

Simple. Not illegal. Sams as self-defense for murder or killing of others in war.

So...were going to put on trial every mother & doctor who determine that aborting a baby to save the mother's life was the correct course of action....oh, and every soldier as well....no wonder so many people go to law school...it looks to be a growth industry...

Laws (and since Roe v Wade is not a law, but a ruling, I'm not including it here) DO NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED...if we legally accept that life begins at conception as scientists are pointing out in droves...

Soldiers are not currently charged with murder, as long as they are under lawful orders to do their duty, which might include killing the enemy...

Soldiers who committ murders (examples abound) are tried, and convicted of murder...

There are numerous ruling of self defense that never go to trial...

Doctors who lose a patient on the operating table are not tried for murder (unfortunately, civil cases abound which is why we need tort reform, but that's another topic)...

[89Hen]

So don't outlaw but leave it as an option to be decided by a Dr & patient on case-by-case....glad you agree with me....

Never disagreed with that from the start, but only for cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy. AGAIN... VERY rare.

[93henfan]

holic and 93, if you guys adhere to the "Pro-Choicers Guide to Arguing" my guess is you're next going to go the rape scenario.

I wouldn't have a need for said guide since I'm pro-life.

You might need to consult the guide though if (God forbid) your wife is raped on the way home from the mall.

[89Hen]

I'm pro-life

If you say it often enough, someone might believe it.

[JoltinJoe]

I don't like to get into this "abortion is murder" line because it is clear that the common law never treated abortion as "murder." In my estimation, the following is where we should land on abortion:

(i) There is no fundamental "right to an abortion" protected by the US Constitution.
(ii) The "right" to an abortion is a liberty right which is merely protected by the 14th Amendment's prohibition of the taking of liberty without due process of the law.
(iii) The appropriate constitutional test of any law which would restrict access to an abortion is whether the government can demonstrate any rational basis for the law.
(iv) Under the rational basis test, any state law restricting access to abortion is constitutional, unless the law prohibits an abortion for a woman who can demonstrate that the abortion is necessary to protect her life.
(v) Otherwise, the states are free to enact any law of their choosing and which reflects the values of their citizenry, from allowing abortion on demand to outlawing the procedure entirely but for an exception to save the mother's life.

What is clear to me is that more and more Americans understand that issue of elective abortions presents an issue of moral gravity. 56% of Americans today consider abortion "morally wrong" and that number is even steeper among younger citizens (who have been more recently exposed to the study of advances in biological science). These numbers represent a remarkable switch in thinking over the last few years. As pre-natal science continues to advance, it can only be exepcted that these numbers viewing abortion as a grave moral issue will continue to increase. I have little doubt that as more people come to understand with certainty that life begins at conception, laws will follow which greatly restirct the "right" to abortion. Moreover, as people become more enlightened on scientific advances, they will vote with their feet against abortion, even when legal. In fact, we are seeing this happen right now.

As SeattleGriz noted earlier in this thread, it is difficult to go to an early sonogram, see plainly the existence of human life, and not come to grasp that the pro-choice line that it is "just a bunch of cells" is nothing more than "just a bunch of bullshit."

I'm all for submitting this to the democratic process because I know my side is going to win. Time is on our side.

[93henfan]

I'm pro-life

If you say it often enough, someone might believe it.

I don't really care what other people believe.

I'm 2-0 on bringing fetuses from my seed to full-term! That's good enough for me.

[89Hen]

I'm 2-0 on bringing fetuses from my seed to full-term! That's good enough for me.

[GannonFan]

...if we legally accept that life begins at conception as scientists are pointing out in droves...

And that's where the real kicker is. Basically, we have abortion today legal on the premise of where science considers a fetus/baby viable outside of the womb. And over the course of time, that has moved further and further back towards conception. 100 years ago a baby born before 30 weeks would have almost no chance of survival. Now the odds are something like 80% or better. And there's no reason to think in another 25 years we won't be much better than that. So what happens to the abortion argument when science is able to provide for viability outside of the womb almost right away? What if the womb is never necessary? If the fetus is viable outside of the womb immediately at conception and beyond, will there ever be a case where abortion is okay then (assuming again health of the mother takes priority)? And if all we are waiting on is for science to improve, then the question of when life begins is really moot - it's obvious life begins at conception - we just don't have good enough medical science so far to allow that life to live outside of the womb early enough.

[JayJ79]

Unless it's zero, you've now made a criminal out of someone who is trying to save their own life...how do you reconcile your stance on pro-life with that?

Simple. Not illegal. Same as self-defense for murder or killing of others in war.

Simple solution.....
declare war on fetuses!

Countless wars have been started when one entity takes up residence on the sovereign soil of another entity, and consumes their resources.

Same situation here.

[youngterrier]

Of course, if God really is of the Presbyterian sort, then she was always gonna go get the abortion anyway.

I got that one

[catamount man]

a fetus grows into a human being we all know that. arms form, legs form, toes, eyes, heart, mind............abortion wipes this out. If something is growing, it's living. Yes, abortion is murder. I don't see any argument here. pro-choice people endorse it because, for the most part, the majority of pro-choice people believe in no God, believe that a woman is much better off without a man, the days of a sound family unit, one mother and one father are archaic and oppressive, and that nobody other than white conservatives should bear the brunt of responsibility while everybody else, gets to suck off of the gravy train. I'm sorry, the truth hurts.