Obama Most Polarizing President Ever

[native]

Class warfare kills the goose that lays the golden egg by rewarding sloth and punishing productivity. In the short term it appears to benefit the middle class by giving out patronage "candy," but in the long term it increases the disparity between the haves and the have-nots and decreases liberty and the opportunity for individuals to create their own destinies.

Yeah, like in Sweden, we all know how much disparity exist there.

Your statement if fairly elitst. Or are you merely a foot solidier/peasant in the war?

I am far from an elistist, growing up on a ranch, working may ass off from about age 10, and putting myself through college. I also love and stay in touch with my yellow-dog Democrat kin folk, the farmers and teachers I grew up with, the kids I have coached and the soldiers and sailors who worked for me for 25 years. These are mostly honest patriotic middle class people who work hard and do not lie cheat or steal. Most are also generous to a fault. When I look at policies and programs I ask myself how they would affect these people, not how they will affect bankers and corporate CEOs. More importantly, I ask myself how policies will affect their children and the future.

I care very deeply about my neighbors and fellow citizens and want to help them succeed. Over the past 35 years I have supported and volunteered thousands of hours and dollars for programs that reward initiative, productivity, teamwork, education, community, self improvement and hard work, such as Laubach Literacy International, Model United Nations, science fair programs, youth sports programs, business organizations, professional organizations, and Junior Achievement.

There is a huge difference between earned an unearned entitlements, between a hand up and a hand out, and that difference reverberates for generations. I detest policies and programs that reward and perpetuate failure, sloth, corruption and dishonesty. Most Democrat programs fall into this category, and many Republicans have been shamed/co-opted into supporting such unsustainable and ultimately self-defeating programs.

I don't know enough about Swedish history to understand how they got to where they are today. In other words, I do not know if class warfare rhetoric was used as a political wedge in their political/economic evolution. I like their cars a lot and they obviously have a functional mixed economy that many of their citizens believe serves them well. There is a lot to admire in Swedish society, even beyond the beautiful women and cars. They also managed to stay somewhat neutral in WWII, although like the Swiss they traded with Hitler.

But I can tell you that Swedish peace keepers sent to Kosovo were among the most lazy and worthless, that Swedes and Norwegians have a higher suicide rate than Americans, and that despite their laudable charitable works, Sweden is not a diverse society. Rather, the culturally homogenous population is made of people 90% or more of the same ethnicity, religion and language. So when the Swedes vote to tax themselves for healthcare it is not the same thing as blowing half the California budget for illegal aliens. I also suspect that there is both a social cohesion and social pressure to conform that does not exist in the USA.

Swedish and Norwegian ex-pats (and Germans, for that matter) I have met in entrepreneurial and corporate circles as a businessman over the past 10 years are uniformly disappointed in nordic socialism and flock here to the USA whenever possible for the personal liberty and the opportunity not to be punished for their productivity.

So call me an elitist or a foot soldier as you wish.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/sw.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

[houndawg]

"According to Gallup, the sixty-five point gap between Democrats who approve of the job Obama is doing as President (88%) and Republicans who approve of the job Obama is doing (23%) is the largest on record, shattering the previous mark of 52% set by Bill Clinton in 1993."


http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com ... newsletter

You pay too much attention to polls, Nathan, and not enough to actual history. Obviously you're too young to remember the most polarizing President of the modern era, Richard Nixon. Those of us who were of age during those interesting times, on both sides, know.

As for the most polarizing President ever, that would be A. Lincoln, hands down.

Pretty feeble effort, Nathan, I've come to expect better from you.

[native]

"According to Gallup, the sixty-five point gap between Democrats who approve of the job Obama is doing as President (88%) and Republicans who approve of the job Obama is doing (23%) is the largest on record, shattering the previous mark of 52% set by Bill Clinton in 1993."


http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com ... newsletter

You pay too much attention to polls, Nathan, and not enough to actual history. Obviously you're too young to remember the most polarizing President, Richard Nixon. Those of us who were of age during those interesting times, on both sides, know.

This particluar poll has been around since Eisenhower, dawg.

I'll give you Lincoln, though. Good catch. My bad.

Nixon could not have been elected without lots of Democrats. He actually governed as a somewhat progressive centrist.

As you may recall, the polarization in 1968 was among Democrats, NOT between Democrats and Republicans.

[houndawg]

You pay too much attention to polls, Nathan, and not enough to actual history. Obviously you're too young to remember the most polarizing President, Richard Nixon. Those of us who were of age during those interesting times, on both sides, know.

This particluar poll has been around since Eisenhower, dawg.



I'll give you Lincoln, though. Good catch. My bad.

Nixon could not have been elected without lots of Democrats. He actually governed as a somewhat progressive centrist.

As you may recall, the polarization in 1968 was among Democrats, NOT between Democrats and Republicans.

Polling was much less accurate thing back then, amigo, you find one that supports you view, that's fine, but that ain't the way it was. I was there, I'll go with what I saw with my own eyes during the years of "debate" about Vietnam.

[native]

This particluar poll has been around since Eisenhower, dawg.



I'll give you Lincoln, though. Good catch. My bad.

Nixon could not have been elected without lots of Democrats. He actually governed as a somewhat progressive centrist.

As you may recall, the polarization in 1968 was among Democrats, NOT between Democrats and Republicans.

Polling was much less accurate thing back then, amigo, you find one that supports you view, that's fine, but that ain't the way it was. I was there, I'll go with what I saw with my own eyes during the years of "debate" about Vietnam.

Points taken, dawg. I was there too, but I wasn't bombing buildings, burning American flags, or spitting on Vietnam Vets. I was crying when my friend Mike Wilson came home in a body bag.

Take another look at the poll methodology on the link. It is not as weak or superficial as you think.

[houndawg]

Polling was much less accurate thing back then, amigo, you find one that supports you view, that's fine, but that ain't the way it was. I was there, I'll go with what I saw with my own eyes during the years of "debate" about Vietnam.

Points taken, dawg. I was there too, but I wasn't bombing buildings, burning American flags, or spitting on Vietnam Vets. I was crying when my friend Mike Wilson came home in a body bag.

Take another look at the poll methodology on the link. It is not as weak or superficial as you think.

I didn't call it either weak or superficial, I said polls weren't as accurate then and the one you cite doesn't agree with my experience. I wasn't burning flags or bombing buildings either, and if you think everybody who was opposed to the war did, then you weren't really there. I'll also wager that my neighborhood had as many guys come home in body bags as yours did. And the crap about spitting on returning vets is an urban myth, although I can see where it fits in nicely with your self-image of the unappreciated warrior who stood guard for the ungreatful. How about we all stipulate to the fact that you are the noblest among us and then you don't have to keep telling us so?

[native]

Points taken, dawg. I was there too, but I wasn't bombing buildings, burning American flags, or spitting on Vietnam Vets. I was crying when my friend Mike Wilson came home in a body bag.

Take another look at the poll methodology on the link. It is not as weak or superficial as you think.

I didn't call it either weak or superficial, I said polls weren't as accurate then and the one you cite doesn't agree with my experience. I wasn't burning flags or bombing buildings either, and if you think everybody who was opposed to the war did, then you weren't really there. I'll also wager that my neighborhood had as many guys come home in body bags as yours did. And the crap about spitting on returning vets is an urban myth, although I can see where it fits in nicely with your self-image of the unappreciated warrior who stood guard for the ungreatful. How about we all stipulate to the fact that you are the noblest among us and then you don't have to keep telling us so?

Well, the spitting did not happen in my neighborhood, either, although some idiot did try to burn a flag at Mike's funeral. Some California vets have told me they were spit on, and I have no reason to doubt them.

I agree that some anti-war protesters in the 60's were peaceful and law abiding, and have no reason to think you bombed buildings or burned flags, but some in the Obama camp were anti-war radicals who did exactly that.

You are essentially correct that I believe most non-black Obama supporters over the age of about 30 are a bunch of useless, ungrateful, anti-American dipshits responsible for putting me on a terror watch list because I served my country militarily and lean libertarian. I make exceptions for the youth who didn't know any better and for black folk who viewed Obama as the great hope. ...not due so much to the soft racism or ageism of lowered expectations but because if I place myself in their shoes I might have made the same mistake. I will admit to those prejudices.

You don't have to read any portion of my posts that upset you, dawg.

[AZGrizFan]

I didn't call it either weak or superficial, I said polls weren't as accurate then and the one you cite doesn't agree with my experience. I wasn't burning flags or bombing buildings either, and if you think everybody who was opposed to the war did, then you weren't really there. I'll also wager that my neighborhood had as many guys come home in body bags as yours did. And the crap about spitting on returning vets is an urban myth, although I can see where it fits in nicely with your self-image of the unappreciated warrior who stood guard for the ungreatful. How about we all stipulate to the fact that you are the noblest among us and then you don't have to keep telling us so?

Dawg,

Two things: Just because YOU weren't burning flags doesn't mean there weren't people who weren't. And I personally know three Viet vets who WERE spit on, cursed, and degraded as they got off the plane returning from Viet Nam---so, maybe in YOUR experience it was an "urban myth", but it DID happen.

[ASUMountaineer]

That's because he was big government liberal...real hard to work with Dems like that. Sure, he was "socially conservative," but he loved him some strong central government.

[ASUMountaineer]

Obama "building consensus?" Are you cr@zy? Since when is trying to jam legislation down everyone's throat in closed session (i.e. no C-SPAN) with unrealistic deadlines "building consensus?"

This is perhaps one of the most ridiculous political comments I've ever seen in here.

It's called the PATRIOT Act, my young learner.

[native]

Hate him if you must, but George Bush was less polarizing and worked far harder to reach across the aisle - for example education and prescriptions. Maybe GW's bi-partisan initiatives were not the greatest solutions, but you cannot deny that he reached across the aisle.

That's because he was big government liberal...real hard to work with Dems like that. Sure, he was "socially conservative," but he loved him some strong central government.

You are most certainly correct, sir!

(Not only for GW, but also for Nixon.)

[ASUMountaineer]

No sarcasm at all. The roaring 20's were an era of massive tax cuts for the rich and deregulation followed by a bubble, followed by a crash. Sound familiar?

FDR came into office as a balanced budget guy but quickly recognized the need to stimulate the economy through jobs and the government as the employer and lender of last resort. The monied interests at the time challenged his policies and he told them he welcomed their hatred. Growing up rich, he was truly a trader to his own class.

In 1936, while the Republican deficit hawks were pushing for balancing the budget, Roosevelt decided to try it and we quickly went backwards into the mini depression of 1937.

It's certainly a matter of debate whether FDR's policies helped or hurt the recovery, but everyone agrees that we were coming out of the Depression when WWII hit. The Republicans like to attribute the war and not FDR for leading us to economic stability again, but remember, the war was basically another form of massive government spending.

Yeah, and in 1929 the top income tax rate was still higher than it had been for all but 12 years (1917-1928) of the previous 250+ year history of the United States.

HEY HEY HEY this isn't about the income tax. Damn, don't you know the country couldn't exist without it!

[ASUMountaineer]

That's because he was big government liberal...real hard to work with Dems like that. Sure, he was "socially conservative," but he loved him some strong central government.

You are most certainly correct, sir!

(Not only for GW, but also for Nixon.)

Very true.

[youngterrier]

the Depression was the Fed's fault...as is the current mess of today

[native]

You are most certainly correct, sir!

(Not only for GW, but also for Nixon.)

Very true.

We would all be a lot more free to choose (or not choose) to be social conservatives if we had leadership with less social conservatism AND less love of government solutions.

[mainejeff]

Never has a network like Fox News wielded so much power over public opinion.

How did you leap to that conclusion? It was a Gallup poll that prompted this thread.

"Leap"????.......obviously, you have not been following the broadcast media over the past decade.

[Ivytalk]

How did you leap to that conclusion? It was a Gallup poll that prompted this thread.

"Leap"????.......obviously, you have not been following the broadcast media over the past decade.

Nope, jeff, I've been living under a rock...just like you.

[ASUMountaineer]

Very true.

We would all be a lot more free to choose (or not choose) to be social conservatives if we had leadership with less social conservatism AND less love of government solutions.

[Gil Dobie]

Can't fault Obama entirely for that - it's more so a product of the times we live in. Hard core Dems and hard core GOP'ers have never been more hard core in favor of themselves than they are today. Thankfully, we independents are the ones who really matter now - the hard core folks just cancel each other out.

Pelosi and Reid have a stake in the blame too, as do many of the talk show circuit, Rush, Olbermann, Maddow, Schultz, O'Reilly, Hannity.....................etc.

[mainejeff]

"Leap"????.......obviously, you have not been following the broadcast media over the past decade.

Nope, jeff, I've been living under a rock...just like you.

Go find someone else to fight......I'm sick of you!

[Gil Dobie]

Does anyone else think David Axelrod reminds them of Carl Rove, by the trail of slim they leave behind them when they crawl away.

[native]

Does anyone else think David Axelrod reminds them of Carl Rove, by the trail of slim they leave behind them when they crawl away.

They perform similar functions, but Carl seems more transparent when he explains things. Maybe Axelrod will appear more transparent after he retires from actively serving.

[Appaholic]

If the Republicans aren't careful they'll wind up having to clean up their own mess, for a change.

And if that does indeed come to pass, hopefully Democrats this time will do more than sit on the sidelines and let the majority party do whatever they want to. The lack of any significant contribution from the opposition party during the worst of the Bush years is just as responsible for the mess we're in now. A majority that gets no pushback at all from the opposition is a recipe for what happened.

Agree

[kalm]

Yeah, like in Sweden, we all know how much disparity exist there.

Your statement if fairly elitst. Or are you merely a foot solidier/peasant in the war?

I am far from an elistist, growing up on a ranch, working may ass off from about age 10, and putting myself through college. I also love and stay in touch with my yellow-dog Democrat kin folk, the farmers and teachers I grew up with, the kids I have coached and the soldiers and sailors who worked for me for 25 years. These are mostly honest patriotic middle class people who work hard and do not lie cheat or steal. Most are also generous to a fault. When I look at policies and programs I ask myself how they would affect these people, not how they will affect bankers and corporate CEOs. More importantly, I ask myself how policies will affect their children and the future.

I care very deeply about my neighbors and fellow citizens and want to help them succeed. Over the past 35 years I have supported and volunteered thousands of hours and dollars for programs that reward initiative, productivity, teamwork, education, community, self improvement and hard work, such as Laubach Literacy International, Model United Nations, science fair programs, youth sports programs, business organizations, professional organizations, and Junior Achievement.

There is a huge difference between earned an unearned entitlements, between a hand up and a hand out, and that difference reverberates for generations. I detest policies and programs that reward and perpetuate failure, sloth, corruption and dishonesty. Most Democrat programs fall into this category, and many Republicans have been shamed/co-opted into supporting such unsustainable and ultimately self-defeating programs.

I don't know enough about Swedish history to understand how they got to where they are today. In other words, I do not know if class warfare rhetoric was used as a political wedge in their political/economic evolution. I like their cars a lot and they obviously have a functional mixed economy that many of their citizens believe serves them well. There is a lot to admire in Swedish society, even beyond the beautiful women and cars. They also managed to stay somewhat neutral in WWII, although like the Swiss they traded with Hitler.

But I can tell you that Swedish peace keepers sent to Kosovo were among the most lazy and worthless, that Swedes and Norwegians have a higher suicide rate than Americans, and that despite their laudable charitable works, Sweden is not a diverse society. Rather, the culturally homogenous population is made of people 90% or more of the same ethnicity, religion and language. So when the Swedes vote to tax themselves for healthcare it is not the same thing as blowing half the California budget for illegal aliens. I also suspect that there is both a social cohesion and social pressure to conform that does not exist in the USA.

Swedish and Norwegian ex-pats (and Germans, for that matter) I have met in entrepreneurial and corporate circles as a businessman over the past 10 years are uniformly disappointed in nordic socialism and flock here to the USA whenever possible for the personal liberty and the opportunity not to be punished for their productivity.

So call me an elitist or a foot soldier as you wish.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/sw.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Two points.

1) I bought a new Saab in the late 1990's and it was a completely unreliable, piece of shit, lemon of a car.

2) Can you really be generous to a fault?

[native]

... I bought a new Saab in the late 1990's and it was a completely unreliable, piece of ****, lemon of a car. ...

Love my Volvos!!! Even the S70 with 150k miles that my young 'un abused for five years.

YES! A non-commie owns a VOLVO!