Roe v Wade Anniversary

[SeattleGriz]

God has control over everything, but how does his manipulating your DNA bring you to accept Him as God? I have said it before. Forcing others to bow down to you is not free will, it is coercion. God wants you to choose on your own. Not make you choose Him.

And no, it does not make those who spontaneously abort murderers. That is life on Earth.

You havent read the bible have you?

I actually have read it through completely twice. I would be full of it if I said I understood everything I read. That is why it is so hard to discuss what the Bible means - because it is open to each persons interpretation.

What about my answer leads you to believe I am misinformed. I don't even have a small amount of the answers, but am always willing to admit when I am wrong concerning the Bible.

[D1B]

You havent read the bible have you?

I actually have read it through completely twice. I would be full of it if I said I understood everything I read. That is why it is so hard to discuss what the Bible means - because it is open to each persons interpretation.

What about my answer leads you to believe I am misinformed. I don't even have a small amount of the answers, but am always willing to admit when I am wrong concerning the Bible.

I'm fucking with you. Listen SG, I enjoy the variety of opinions and world views out there. Jesus, life would be boring if we were all the same.

[SeattleGriz]

I actually have read it through completely twice. I would be full of it if I said I understood everything I read. That is why it is so hard to discuss what the Bible means - because it is open to each persons interpretation.

What about my answer leads you to believe I am misinformed. I don't even have a small amount of the answers, but am always willing to admit when I am wrong concerning the Bible.

I'm fucking with you. Listen SG, I enjoy the variety of opinions and world views out there. Jesus, life would be boring if we were all the same.

AMEN to that.

[Appaholic]

I don't like to get into this "abortion is murder" line because it is clear that the common law never treated abortion as "murder." In my estimation, the following is where we should land on abortion:

(i) There is no fundamental "right to an abortion" protected by the US Constitution.
(ii) The "right" to an abortion is a liberty right which is merely protected by the 14th Amendment's prohibition of the taking of liberty without due process of the law.
(iii) The appropriate constitutional test of any law which would restrict access to an abortion is whether the government can demonstrate any rational basis for the law.
(iv) Under the rational basis test, any state law restricting access to abortion is constitutional, unless the law prohibits an abortion for a woman who can demonstrate that the abortion is necessary to protect her life.
(v) Otherwise, the states are free to enact any law of their choosing and which reflects the values of their citizenry, from allowing abortion on demand to outlawing the procedure entirely but for an exception to save the mother's life.

What is clear to me is that more and more Americans understand that issue of elective abortions presents an issue of moral gravity. 56% of Americans today consider abortion "morally wrong" and that number is even steeper among younger citizens (who have been more recently exposed to the study of advances in biological science). These numbers represent a remarkable switch in thinking over the last few years. As pre-natal science continues to advance, it can only be exepcted that these numbers viewing abortion as a grave moral issue will continue to increase. I have little doubt that as more people come to understand with certainty that life begins at conception, laws will follow which greatly restirct the "right" to abortion. Moreover, as people become more enlightened on scientific advances, they will vote with their feet against abortion, even when legal. In fact, we are seeing this happen right now.

As SeattleGriz noted earlier in this thread, it is difficult to go to an early sonogram, see plainly the existence of human life, and not come to grasp that the pro-choice line that it is "just a bunch of cells" is nothing more than "just a bunch of bullshit."

I'm all for submitting this to the democratic process because I know my side is going to win. Time is on our side.

Scary, but this is pretty much the way I feel.... ...abortion is a grave moral issue & the decision shouldn't be entered upon lightly. I'm "pro-choice" to the effect of not allowing an arbitrary ruling by an omnipotent federal government to criminalize a viable medical procedure (I know only a small percentage are "necessary") to be used on a case-by-case basis with the decision to be determined by a family in consultation with a medical expert. Keep it legal, but put conditions upon it.

And, by the same token, i don't think people have a "right" to be artificially inseminated (think "octomom", "kate plus 8") either if there is a greater risk of medical issues. But it shouldn't be outlawed & should be available as a viable medical alternative upon consultation medical experts. But that's a discussion for anther thread.

[89Hen]

Countless wars have been started when one entity takes up residence on the sovereign soil of another entity, and consumes their resources.

Same situation here.

Uhhh, yeah.

[89Hen]

And, as a libertarian, I don't want some POS politician telling me what kind of medical decisions my wife and I can make.

However, I don't think the government has the right to tell my family how we will handle medical procedures, especially when it comes to a life and death situation for my family.

Calling it that, doesn't make it that. BTW, I think I've been fairly clear that I don't believe abortion for the reason of preservation of the mother is wrong.

[89Hen]

So intriguing to watch a bunch of men, physically incapable of being pregnant, hen peck each other over something they never personally have to worry about.

Irrelevant.

[89Hen]

Do you think that it is not possible to be against something on moral or ethical grounds, yet simultaneously of the mind that the government should not be in the business of prohibiting it?

There are plenty of things in this country that are perfectly legal that I do not agree with, but I don't call on the government to prohibit them just because I think they are repulsive.

Do any of them have to with killing anyone?

I too am repulsed by flag burning and would never imagine ever doing it. But I am OK with somebody having the right to do so. So I agree with you there. But comparing terminating a life with flag burning is not a good comparison IMO. Should I have the right to kill an adult or is it OK for the government to tell me that's not OK?

[89Hen]

why does god abort so many babies?

What does God have to do with Roe v Wade?

[Appaholic]

And, as a libertarian, I don't want some POS politician telling me what kind of medical decisions my wife and I can make.

However, I don't think the government has the right to tell my family how we will handle medical procedures, especially when it comes to a life and death situation for my family.

Calling it that, doesn't make it that. BTW, I think I've been fairly clear that I don't believe abortion for the reason of preservation of the mother is wrong.

By outlawing it, you are saying that....I'm confused...either it's available as a medical option when needed with conditions (I can live with that...just want the medical doctor & family's input to hold as much weight as the Atty Gen's) or it's not available because it's against the law...what am i missing?

[89Hen]

By outlawing it, you are saying that....I'm confused...either it's available as a medical option when needed with conditions (I can live with that...just want the medical doctor & family's input to hold as much weight as the Atty Gen's) or it's not available because it's against the law...what am i missing?

You're missing the part where I've said several times that I am OK with the 0.05% of the time when it's used to save the mother's life. Murder has a clause for self-defense, so why can't it have a clause for saving the mother's life?

I'm just opposed to calling the other 99.95% of abortions a "medical procedure".

[CID1990]

Do you think that it is not possible to be against something on moral or ethical grounds, yet simultaneously of the mind that the government should not be in the business of prohibiting it?

There are plenty of things in this country that are perfectly legal that I do not agree with, but I don't call on the government to prohibit them just because I think they are repulsive.

Do any of them have to with killing anyone?

I too am repulsed by flag burning and would never imagine ever doing it. But I am OK with somebody having the right to do so. So I agree with you there. But comparing terminating a life with flag burning is not a good comparison IMO. Should I have the right to kill an adult or is it OK for the government to tell me that's not OK?

I'm not comparing flag burning with murder, I was just stating the fact that there are plenty of things that I do not agree with but that is no reason for me to demand that the government censure those things.

As for killing people, murder requires malice. I do not think that people are having abortions in order to punish their fetuses. That being said, I think the practice is repulsive and wrong. However, I have an extremely narrow view of what the central government should be allowed to criminalize, and abortion doesn't fit into that area of responsibility.

Our government does legislate morality. There is a consensus view that murder is wrong and therefore it is illegal. There is not a consensus view on abortion. I personally believe that life begins at conception, but that is my personal belief, not settled science. THAT is where I draw a difference: my own personal beliefs are just that; personal.

[catamount man]

50 million untaxed aborted fetuses=reason why social security is drying up. Do the math.

[89Hen]

As for killing people, murder requires malice.

No it doesn't. Murder only requires intent. Malice can be involved, but it's only the intentional termination that makes it murder. How about the dispicable persons who kill their kids because they believe in their mind the kids will be better off? They have no malice.

[89Hen]

Our government does legislate morality. There is a consensus view that murder is wrong and therefore it is illegal. There is not a consensus view on abortion.

And hopefully that is changing.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27820.html

[Appaholic]

50 million untaxed aborted fetuses=reason why social security is drying up. Do the math.

So you want more competition for a job?

...and we should crminalize because we can't collect taxes from the aborted persons? Great...put a tax on abortion then....

[Appaholic]

By outlawing it, you are saying that....I'm confused...either it's available as a medical option when needed with conditions (I can live with that...just want the medical doctor & family's input to hold as much weight as the Atty Gen's) or it's not available because it's against the law...what am i missing?

You're missing the part where I've said several times that I am OK with the 0.05% of the time when it's used to save the mother's life. Murder has a clause for self-defense, so why can't it have a clause for saving the mother's life?

I'm just opposed to calling the other 99.95% of abortions a "medical procedure".

And I'm opposed to forcing the othe .05% to justify their actions to someone like yourself when it's none of your fokking business...but that's me, I don't try to legislate my narrow beliefs on the majority of the people & expect the same consideration...& end of disappointed by people like yourself who believe they know what's best for all in all situations...just run for office Hen....

[houndawg]

50 million untaxed aborted fetuses=reason why social security is drying up. Do the math.

On the other hand, overpopulation is the biggest problem the planet faces.

[ASUMountaineer]

And, as a libertarian, I don't want some POS politician telling me what kind of medical decisions my wife and I can make.

However, I don't think the government has the right to tell my family how we will handle medical procedures, especially when it comes to a life and death situation for my family.

Calling it that, doesn't make it that. BTW, I think I've been fairly clear that I don't believe abortion for the reason of preservation of the mother is wrong.

What would you call it? I would definitely consider it a medical procedure in that situation.

This isn't just about you Hen, that's what you're missing. I understand you don't have a problem with the .05%, neither do I. But, if you're going to say it's 1) not a medical procedure, and 2) murder (killing)...then you pretty much have screwed that .05% you are ok with.

I guess, this is my point...why do you get to decide? Or, what makes you right? Why do you want the government to tell the .05% what to do in that situation? Are the patient and doctor too incompetent, that they need an attorney general to determine the best course of action?

[JoltinJoe]

Our government does legislate morality. There is a consensus view that murder is wrong and therefore it is illegal. There is not a consensus view on abortion.

And hopefully that is changing.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27820.html

The numbers in fact have moved. More Americans now identify themselves as "pro life" rather than "pro choice" and this trend will continue as pre-natal science continues to advance. The "pro choice" majority was the product of ignorance but as science rapidly shines a light on these matters, you can count on the expansion of the pro-life majority.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php ... t-abortion

A recent poll conducted by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion indicates that there has been a definite shift toward a pro-life perspective among Americans. The survey, conducted between December 2009 and January 2010, found that 56 percent of those polled think abortion is “morally wrong,” with 58 percent of those between the ages of 18 and 29 calling the procedure wrong.

Surveys by the Pew Research Center also reveal that support for abortion has slipped. Pew surveys over the last two years show that while pro-choice Americans outnumbered pro-lifers by 54 percent to 40 percent between 2007 and 2008, by 2009 the difference had all but evened out, with 47 percent of Americans continuing their support for legalized abortion and 44 percent opposing it.

Similarly, Gallup surveys revealed a significant shift nationwide away from support for abortion, showing that in 2009, for the first time in more than a decade, more Americans polled identified themselves as pro-life than pro-choice.

[JoltinJoe]

Calling it that, doesn't make it that. BTW, I think I've been fairly clear that I don't believe abortion for the reason of preservation of the mother is wrong.

What would you call it? I'm having a colonoscopy Thursday, to me it's a medical procedure...what would you call it?

Best wishes for that procedure. The prep is the worst part.

[ASUMountaineer]

What would you call it? I'm having a colonoscopy Thursday, to me it's a medical procedure...what would you call it?

Best wishes for that procedure. The prep is the worst part.

So I hear.

[JoltinJoe]

Best wishes for that procedure. The prep is the worst part.

So I hear.

On the plus side, the drug they use to knock you out is very, very good.

I have ulcerative colititis and I have to have this procedure every year to avoid colon cancers. I actually look forward to the shot that knocks me out. Best rest I get all year.

[89Hen]

And I'm opposed to forcing the othe .05% to justify their actions to someone like yourself when it's none of your fokking business...but that's me, I don't try to legislate my narrow beliefs on the majority of the people & expect the same consideration...& end of disappointed by people like yourself who believe they know what's best for all in all situations...just run for office Hen....

My narrow beliefs? I guess you didn't know that a majority of the people in this country believe abortion is murder.

Why is Jeffrey Dahmer killing somebody I don't know any of MY business?

[ASUMountaineer]

So I hear.

On the plus side, the drug they use to knock you out is very, very good.

I have ulcerative colititis and I have to this procedure every year to avoid colon cancers. I actually look forward to the shot that knocks me out. Best rest I get all year.

Thanks for the best wishes...sounds good to me. I could use a good sleep.